Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

First topic message reminder :

Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

Its all irrelevant...the England squad this season will mostly be from the Mighty Falcons  

Led by the behemoth that is Joe Robinson GF??

Ah.... sadly mate big Joe couldnt cope with it up here in the North East...and has been moved on to Fylde with Mr Ashton...

Oh you serious? Had no idea! Still young though isn't he? Could meander his way back eventually.

Who knows mate...yeahs hes still young. But really didnt show much of moving on the the next level. Been playing SR for the development team rather than back row.

But we have Dom Barrow and Fraser McKenzie now...get the raw meat out!!

Haha, true. Dom Barrow is a beast. Let Dean Richards on him and unleash him

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its all irrelevant...the England squad this season will mostly be from the Mighty Falcons  

Can they beat the Mighty Ducks?

What's Attwood got to do? He's played well for Bath in a pretty congested second row, taken the place of the club captain and added to his good loose work with some good line out work as well. He runs hard and is one of a few players who manage to regularly break tackles in tight when carrying rather then go straight to ground (one of my biggest issues with Lawes). He's tall and physical but not lanky. Yes he's pretty unproven at Int level but he seems to have the skillset and body composition to do well and don't forget he's been around the EPS since '09.

Yappy I think we'll really see Attwood kick on this Autumn. He was very good in Argentina, and yes I know, as people constantly keep reminding us all, it wasn't a great Argentina team. But still, credit where it is due. I think Attwood is excellent, and really showed what we are currently missing in the pack.

I agree Blue. Part of me hopes that Bath do well this season as it does seem like the English pack is going to be getting its beef from them (Attwood, Webber, Über-Wilson and Fearns). The other part hopes they don't though...

Ha, I know what you mean. It's a real double-edged sword.

Uber-Wilson is correct. I don't know what's happened to him recently, but whatever he's been eating/drinking continue with it.

It will be interesting to see how Fearns gets on after his return from injury. He was definitely on the England radar before hand, but now he's back, there's even stiffer competition in that backrow. Will be one to watch. Maybe add Garvey to that list as well yappy?? He's always mentioned as a fringe EPS player, but with the added talent of a good Bath pack around him, he could really come into his own.

Throw Jonathan Joseph into the Bath mix, along with Henson and Ford, and Bath look very exciting.

And Eastmond as well. Bath have a huge amount of EQ players that could be so useful to the England cause (all stolen from other clubs....) if they do click it could help a lot.

Watching Fearns play he seems to offer what Callum Ckark should do but doesn't, namely controlled bouts of crazed (legal!!!) aggression and a willingness to hurt himself and opposition players legally.

Agree guys Bath have a few players to watch.

Im chuffed Wilson is coming back to the potential we all saw at the Falcons...he looked serious potential as Scott Wilson does now...

Fearns is one of those we all want to fire on...he's that aggressive physical 6 i like to see...but i just dont think he's near the class of Wood...and probably Croft for that 6 spot. I hope he maybe proves me wrong though.

Well ive championed Garvey for years now...but i fear his time has gone. Regardless, if he is puling up trees for Bath (which i actually expect him to do...Attwood and Garvey in the second row..ouch!!), whatever went on in that Saxons changing room has ruined his international career.

Eastmond is one ill also be watching with interest. He's different to what we have..he's more like you Aussie playmaker, he's has great vision and hands...but showed he can still move when he needs to aswell. I'd love to have seen him at 9...like our version of Genia, but i dont think he'll be there...

And just for beshockeds benefit...
Im looking forward to seeing how Will Fraser, Kruis, and the Vunipola brothers go.
And will Jamie George actually get some gametime...

I think Eastmond is far better at 12. He doesn't have to worry about all the decision making or running attacking plays that a 9/10 has to but still gets the ball in his hands loads so can show off his moves. Put him at 9 or 10 and he'll have to pass and kick more then he runs which is a waste.

HHmm..that means at 12 we potentially have a battle of :

Barritt v Twelvetrees v Eastmond

And whilst recently i have been critical of Barritt...if used with 36 or Eastmond intelligently..ie the playmaker at 12 when we have the ball and barritt at 12 defensively...it could work very well...but is 36's defence so bad?

I think 36's defence is actually very good. Not in the same league as Barritt, whose positional work is very good. 36's tackling is on a par, but he just struggles to position himself correctly a few times. Still, this will come with time.

If we get selection right and the youngsters continue to improve and fulfill their potential...we could really be quite a side in the next few years.

The clubs and their academies seem to be just churning out talent at the moment...

As a Bath fan, next season is currently looking very exciting, but the Eastmond situation is possibly the most interesting for me.

With Eastmond in the team, it allows for another reciever, allowing for a real left/right split from central scrums, as well as other options in attack. The other side of things is that while he isnt weak defensively exactly, clearly every number 8 in the country would rather run at him that at Banahan.

So my concern is that from a Bath (and England) point of view, will coaches want to put Eastmond at 12 for the big games or would they rather play Henson there (for Bath) or Barritt/36 there to bring a little more solidity, plus it wouldnt mean a backline so focused on 1 player.

I hope Eastmond doesnt become just a utility benchman, but with a statistics obsessed Saffa at Bath and the traditional English conservatism, it could happen.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If we get selection right and the youngsters continue to improve and fulfill their potential...we could really be quite a side in the next few years.

The clubs and their academies seem to be just churning out talent at the moment...

Returning full circle to the OP, you have to consider that although England are young and full of potential that much of their opposition are the same average age have achieved more as a squad already and has equal potential. In realistic terms of the future for any nation it is not just the players available but the method in which they are utilised.

Players mentioned above showing promise Burns, Eastmond, Twelvetrees etc currently look unlikely to encourage Lancaster to drop Farrell, Barritt or Tuilagi..! Similar can be said of the forwards.

All coaches have their favourites, unfortunately that often constricts the potential direction of the team.

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If we get selection right and the youngsters continue to improve and fulfill their potential...we could really be quite a side in the next few years.

The clubs and their academies seem to be just churning out talent at the moment...

Returning full circle to the OP, you have to consider that although England are young and full of potential that much of their opposition are the same average age have achieved more as a squad already and has equal potential. In realistic terms of the future for any nation it is not just the players available but the method in which they are utilised.

Players mentioned above showing promise Burns, Eastmond, Twelvetrees etc currently look unlikely to encourage Lancaster to drop Farrell, Barritt or Tuilagi..! Similar can be said of the forwards.

All coaches have their favourites, unfortunately that often constricts the potential direction of the team.

Maestegmafia I don't quite understand you to be honest. You say much of England's opposition are the same average age and have achieved more as a squad?

Do you seriously believe that?

Writing off the potential of the England pool of players is very naive.

England are the highest ranked side in the NH because they have been the most consistent recently. Their win vs New Zealand showed the potential of this squad.

I suppose you could say Japan have achieved more than England - after all they beat the best side in the world.

Maesteg seems to be referring predominantly to Wales in his post

you have to consider that although England are young and full of potential that much of their opposition are the same average age have achieved more as a squad already and has equal potential.

Im not sure i totally agree with that.

Whilst accept "potential" means didly unless its realised...who aside from your Wales has shown more "potential"...

This is a very young England side, that has 2 2nd places behind a Wales side which i believe is MUCH further down the development line...and an AB victory under their belt.

There are still positions - some critical that need analysing. Hopefully in the AI's those will be addressed.

Personally if Lancs gets it right..and thats a big IF...then i dont think theres many teams around with so much "potential"..

But i say again...its potential...and that means didly at the moment.

JWC winners 2013?

Most potential out there, surely.


(ps joking)

Cant disagree with that LT... 

For Bath I think the Eastmond (12) and Joseph (13) partnership has bags of potential, and with a strong club season could easily be replicated by England.

With Glaws (Twelvetrees and Trinder), Sarries (Barritt and Tomkins) and Leicester (Allen and Tuilagi) also fielding all England centre combinations as first choice, I think England are close to having a very strong set of midfield options once more.

The trick will be to pick the right combination and get that combination up to the sort of level to beat the best teams on the circuit. The depth will be there (certainly more so than the other 6 Nations sides excluding France), but it's taking the 1st XV to the next level that Lancaster needs to do. That's where England have struggled in the last decade.

For Bath I think the Eastmond (12) and Joseph (13) partnership has bags of potential, and with a strong club season could easily be replicated by England.

Whilst i agree FES, dont forget Banahan. He is derided on 606...but i think he's one hell of a club player and his alround skills are getting better and better. He will not give up his bath position easily...and is the type of player Gary Gold likes...POWER POWER POWER...

Very true, and he offers a real contrast to the two I've suggested, as does Henson. Some nice options for Bath to have, and I don't think you'd be ruining Eastmond with the "versatility" tag by simply shifting him from 12 to 13. It should be possible for him to interchange with his skillset. Similarly Banahan could always play on the wing and look to come off his wing to carry, allowing Eastmond to cover his gap on the wing. Plenty nice options.

Key thing for Bath thought is to keep Tom Heathcote at 10. Scotland really need that young chap to develop this season.

funnyExiledScot wrote:For Bath I think the Eastmond (12) and Joseph (13) partnership has bags of potential, and with a strong club season could easily be replicated by England.

With Glaws (Twelvetrees and Trinder), Sarries (Barritt and Tomkins) and Leicester (Allen and Tuilagi) also fielding all England centre combinations as first choice, I think England are close to having a very strong set of midfield options once more.

The trick will be to pick the right combination and get that combination up to the sort of level to beat the best teams on the circuit. The depth will be there (certainly more so than the other 6 Nations sides excluding France), but it's taking the 1st XV to the next level that Lancaster needs to do. That's where England have struggled in the last decade.

And Quins! Both JTH and Lowe are capped and the other centre options are both English too!

True! Didn't mean to forget Quins. As a Scotland fan I sincerely hope to see JTH (in particular) and Lowe lining up against us at Murrayfield next 6 Nations!  

Ha! Fair enough. Casson will be first choice for us by then though and he actually has potential

You thinking Casson and Lowe to start for Harlequins this season CJ?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Very true, and he offers a real contrast to the two I've suggested, as does Henson. Some nice options for Bath to have, and I don't think you'd be ruining Eastmond with the "versatility" tag by simply shifting him from 12 to 13. It should be possible for him to interchange with his skillset. Similarly Banahan could always play on the wing and look to come off his wing to carry, allowing Eastmond to cover his gap on the wing. Plenty nice options.

Key thing for Bath thought is to keep Tom Heathcote at 10. Scotland really need that young chap to develop this season.

 Might be hard with young George Ford making his way to Bath too FES, and also depending where Henson lines up!

bluestonevedder wrote:You thinking Casson and Lowe to start for Harlequins this season CJ?

With a little rotation, but that is what I'd expect

Think it is your best combination.

JTH just doesn't inspire me when I see him play. Lowe on the other hand, does. Think he's a cracking little player.

AT U20 international level JTH was a bit of a one trick pony. He was great at tying in defenders with muscular runs but if he had got better at recycling the ball he could have been quite a handful. Problem is now he doesnt seem to have developed any more tricks and he cant rely as much on out muscling the opposition. Once had the potential for international rugby but not any more really, especially considering the competition. Sad but thats sport for ya

bluestonevedder wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Very true, and he offers a real contrast to the two I've suggested, as does Henson. Some nice options for Bath to have, and I don't think you'd be ruining Eastmond with the "versatility" tag by simply shifting him from 12 to 13. It should be possible for him to interchange with his skillset. Similarly Banahan could always play on the wing and look to come off his wing to carry, allowing Eastmond to cover his gap on the wing. Plenty nice options.

Key thing for Bath thought is to keep Tom Heathcote at 10. Scotland really need that young chap to develop this season.

 Might be hard with young George Ford making his way to Bath too FES, and also depending where Henson lines up!

Not worried about Henson. He'll be back on reality TV by Christmas having had his contract terminated for being an idiot.

George Ford is a threat - hopefully Gary Gold will recognise how important Heathcote is for Scotland and just play him regardless of merit or form. I'm pretty sure Gold would do that if I asked him nicely.....

bluestonevedder wrote:Think it is your best combination.

JTH just doesn't inspire me when I see him play. Lowe on the other hand, does. Think he's a cracking little player.

While he will never be an international I do think JTH is pretty key for Quins. Without him we lack size and go forward in the backs and his D is in my opinion just as good as other top 12's.

Casson has a shed load more potential but I think the gameplan needs to change to accommodate him.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Very true, and he offers a real contrast to the two I've suggested, as does Henson. Some nice options for Bath to have, and I don't think you'd be ruining Eastmond with the "versatility" tag by simply shifting him from 12 to 13. It should be possible for him to interchange with his skillset. Similarly Banahan could always play on the wing and look to come off his wing to carry, allowing Eastmond to cover his gap on the wing. Plenty nice options.

Key thing for Bath thought is to keep Tom Heathcote at 10. Scotland really need that young chap to develop this season.

 Might be hard with young George Ford making his way to Bath too FES, and also depending where Henson lines up!

Not worried about Henson. He'll be back on reality TV by Christmas having had his contract terminated for being an idiot.

George Ford is a threat - hopefully Gary Gold will recognise how important Heathcote is for Scotland and just play him regardless of merit or form. I'm pretty sure Gold would do that if I asked him nicely.....

 You're right about Henson. Probably will miss the start of the season because of Fearns' punch. Will take him weeks to re-apply the fake tan that was smudged off.

GG seems like a reasonable fellow! Just send a kindly worded email voicing your concerns over the future of Scottish rugby, and I am sure he will abide!

Seriously though, I expect to see a lot of rotation between Heathcote and Ford.

yappysnap wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Think it is your best combination.

JTH just doesn't inspire me when I see him play. Lowe on the other hand, does. Think he's a cracking little player.

While he will never be an international I do think JTH is pretty key for Quins. Without him we lack size and go forward in the backs and his D is in my opinion just as good as other top 12's.

Casson has a shed load more potential but I think the gameplan needs to change to accommodate him.

Yeh, I used to think JTH was really 'internationally-ready'. When he made his 2 caps off the bench, he just looked a little lost, and like you say, one dimensional.

Like Banahan, JTH has his place in club and European rugby. He isn't a bad player, it's just that key parts of his skillset aren't good enough for international rugby. In terms of dragging Quins over the advantage line he's an effective player, it's just that he doesn't create much and you certainly wouldn't back his passing game under pressure.

Worth hanging onto though. He's the sort of player you miss more when he's gone. Very much like Northampton have missed James Downey.

Agree on the JTH point, had he been able to add to his game he'd have done pretty well but there are more options now in that IC spot than 12 months ago. He'd be a reasonable stand-in for Brad B but if we're looking to expand this game plan a bit then 36 and Eastmond are leading the way in that regard.

As far as Banahan goes he's only had about a season and a half at 12 for Bath. That's a big change from the wing, unless you're the sort of exceptional talent that is Eastmond. He has added to his game there for Bath with the odd impressive kicking display from hand and some better offloading work. I wouldn't rule him out altogether.

To me 12 is between Barritt, 36 Eastmond.

In the future watch out for Casson and then U20's ace Harry Sloan.

Sam Hill is one to watch at 12. Has done superbly for U20s, Pirates and will hopefully start to break through at Chiefs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Cant disagree with that LT... 

Well that is the best English result since 2003. And England at the u20 level are constantly performing...! Exciting stuff. Not imminently available to England.

The potential is there.

My previous post was intended to allude more to the vision for the coaches, the reflection of the OP rather than other people's assumptions.

yappysnap wrote:To me 12 is between Barritt, 36 Eastmond.

In the future watch out for Casson and then U20's ace Harry Sloan.

Ryan Mills from Gloucester is one worth watching if he can stay fit too.

The skill for the selectors/coaches will still be to sort out the wheat from the chaff. This applies at club level as well. We have so many players, ans so many young players coming through each year that have shone at age group level that it can be tricky to identify which are the real stars. It still worries me that there is the automatic assumption that the new kid on the block is better than the slightly older player.

Take Rob Buchannan - he went on the summer tour, yet was very much second choice to Joe Gray last season. Or Ed Slater - initially selected for the tour, he may be 4th choice at Tigers in the coming season.


The other problem with having a lot of choice is at times you chop and change based on fluctuations of form and never manage to build a team that can gel.

If Lancaster et al make more correct calls than poor - the next couple of years could be rather good. However they could screw things up rather royally.

Very good point London Tiger. That'll be th toughest part if LAncasters role. I wouldn't want to have to do it!

So what would you guys say are set in stone positions...as of today...

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4
5
6
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9
10
11
12
13 Tuilagi ?
14
15

LT - that's not quite right on Buchanan. For Quins he was played in rotation with Gray throughout the season and finished it as first choice in most people's eyes. Got a bit to do to get into the full EPS, though, if his non-selection for the is any indicator

LondonTiger wrote:The skill for the selectors/coaches will still be to sort out the wheat from the chaff. This applies at club level as well. We have so many players, ans so many young players coming through each year that have shone at age group level that it can be tricky to identify which are the real stars. It still worries me that there is the automatic assumption that the new kid on the block is better than the slightly older player.

Take Rob Buchannan - he went on the summer tour, yet was very much second choice to Joe Gray last season. Or Ed Slater - initially selected for the tour, he may be 4th choice at Tigers in the coming season.


The other problem with having a lot of choice is at times you chop and change based on fluctuations of form and never manage to build a team that can gel.

If Lancaster et al make more correct calls than poor - the next couple of years could be rather good. However they could screw things up rather royally.

Absolutely agree on the sentiment there LT. A couple of guys have looked good at age grade (Ryan Davis and Matt Everard spring to mind) but not gone on to anything like the acclaim.

Interestingly with Slater I think he really earned his place on that tour with the performances he put in for Tigers throughout the season, in an area which England are looking for grunt. Attwood came in at 5 and did very well with Launchbury.

Who do you think will be ahead of him in that 4 slot for Tigers?