Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

First topic message reminder :

Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So what would you guys say are set in stone positions...as of today...

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4
5
6
7 Robshaw??
8 Morgan

9 B Youngs
10
11
12
13 Tuilagi
14
15

To be honest GF I think that's almost it bar the one i've put in. I actually think Robshaw will be under real pressure this season and we could well see either Kvesic or Wood come in and take that 7 position.

Oh I also think Launchbury has set himself in stone with his work rate.

Wouldn't include Robshaw or Tom Youngs as certainties Geordie.  As per discussions on this thread earlier in the week, the hooker spot appears quite open.  There is too much competition at 6 and 7 to say anyone is certain.  Personally I'd call Wood a certainty on one flank with either Croft at 6 or Robshaw at 7, or in time one of the young opensides, joining him alongside Morgan.

Corbs and Cole are certain unless Lions are rested.

My current first 15 would be something like:

Corbs Webber Cole Launchbury Attwood Croft Wood Morgan Youngs Burns May Twelvetrees Tuilagi Wade Foden

But so many positions are very open and I hope premiership form has a strong bearing on selection.

Very few set in stone in my opinion.

Can't see past Corbisiero and Cole to start the season as first choice props, and I'd be stunned if Ben Morgan wasn't the presumptive number 8 at the start of the season, but that's probably it as far as the pack goes.

In the backs I think Tuilagi probably has the 13 shirt to himself if he stays fit, but otherwise that's probably it for the backs.

A lot of jerseys up for grabs at the moment.

A LOT of people writing off Robshaw I see. It's amazing how quickly the back to back MoM performances are forgotten about in favour of some new youngster.

Still Quins will be happy to have him all season.

jeffwinger wrote:Wouldn't include Robshaw or Tom Youngs as certainties Geordie.  As per discussions on this thread earlier in the week, the hooker spot appears quite open.  There is too much competition at 6 and 7 to say anyone is certain.  Personally I'd call Wood a certainty on one flank with either Croft at 6 or Robshaw at 7, or in time one of the young opensides, joining him alongside Morgan.

Corbs and Cole are certain unless Lions are rested.

My current first 15 would be something like:

Corbs Webber Cole Launchbury Attwood Croft Wood Morgan Youngs Burns May Twelvetrees Tuilagi Wade Foden

But so many positions are very open and I hope premiership form has a strong bearing on selection.

If Robshaw is too much of a 6.5 to start at 7, surely Wood is too?

I'm not writing him off. I just don't think he's a dead cert. There's talk of Quins switching him to 6 to accommodate Wallace, which may affect his chances of retaining the 7 jersey for England. I think it's highly likely he'll captain England in the AIs and play 7, I just don't think it's a certainty compared to Cole, Corbisiero, Morgan and Tuilagi.

It's not just the youngsters he has to worry about. Tom Wood is also a threat, particularly if Croft is chosen at 6 and Wood is playing 7 for Saints with Clark at 6.

I reiterate, I'm a big fan of Robshaw and I'd pick him to start at 7 were it up to me.

Frankly all the discussion about the hooker spot being open I think is fairly wide of the mark.

Tom Youngs has proved to be performing at a very high level and did very well in the Lions Test. Being dropped for Hibbard was on the cards once Gats decided to go Welsh en masse. His scrummaging is not weak, as proved by being part of on of the best front rows in the AP and HEC.

Webber did very well on the Argie tour and I like his style, it's between him and Hartley for that bench spot I feel.

Jeffwinger as far as that first XV goes that's what i'd like to see with Youngs in instead of Webber. The bench i'd go 16. R Webber 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola 21. D Care 22. T Flood 23. K Eastmond

You see i think Robshaw is set in stone at the moment. Until Kvesic or Fraser put in such good performances that take the shirt of him.

It concerns me though that we have so many positions wide open.

Now i like compeition and players fighting for the shirts...but id still like to see a few more players penned in...give the side a bit more of a setled look, with their competition fighting to take it off them.

Im not sure Launchbury is set in stone either CHJ.

Slater v Attwood could take that 4 spot alongside mr Consistant Parling. Thus Launchbury might not even start.

Its just so wide open...and i wish it was a little less so now...

I'm not writing Robshaw off at all.  He will certainly be involved for a while yet, but with the back row as competitive as it is, calling anyone a certainty is tough.  Personally I view Croft and Wood as superior individual players, but any combination of the 3 would work well.  Try aren't exactly 'some new youngster' either are they Yappy.  One has recently captained his country and the other has been on 2 Lions tours.

Those 2 MOTM awards are often mentioned, but they were in very dull games where it seemed to me like he was getting it as the captain on behalf of an ok performance in which no one really stood out.  MOTM awards are so heavily influenced by commentators' current favourites anyway that its hard to use that to objectively judge selection later down the line.

My England squad:

1.Corbisiero 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Parling 6.Croft 7.Robshaw (c) 8.Morgan 9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Foden

16.Wilson 17.Hartley 18.M Vunipola 19.Lawes 20.B Vunipola 21.Care 22.Farrell 23.Goode

yappysnap wrote:A LOT of people writing off Robshaw I see. It's amazing how quickly the back to back MoM performances are forgotten about in favour of some new youngster.

Still Quins will be happy to have him all season.

I, as others no doubt, am not writing off Robshaw at all. He's done very well for England in his role and has impressed me. All i'm saying is that his position is vulnerable on the basis of the quality and depth in that BR. Wood can fill that role with Croft at 6. That gives you the option of still having a superb lineout but some more grunt in the engine room.

Chjw131 wrote:Frankly all the discussion about the hooker spot being open I think is fairly wide of the mark.

Tom Youngs has proved to be performing at a very high level and did very well in the Lions Test. Being dropped for Hibbard was on the cards once Gats decided to go Welsh en masse. His scrummaging is not weak, as proved by being part of on of the best front rows in the AP and HEC.

Webber did very well on the Argie tour and I like his style, it's between him and Hartley for that bench spot I feel.

Jeffwinger as far as that first XV goes that's what i'd like to see with Youngs in instead of Webber. The bench i'd go 16. R Webber 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola 21. D Care 22. T Flood 23. K Eastmond

I agree, right now I think Corbs, Cole, Youngs, Parling, Morgan And Manu are all certain, plus one of Wood or Robshaw (maybe both)

Chjw131 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:A LOT of people writing off Robshaw I see. It's amazing how quickly the back to back MoM performances are forgotten about in favour of some new youngster.

Still Quins will be happy to have him all season.

I, as others no doubt, am not writing off Robshaw at all. He's done very well for England in his role and has impressed me. All i'm saying is that his position is vulnerable on the basis of the quality and depth in that BR. Wood can fill that role with Croft at 6. That gives you the option of still having a superb lineout but some more grunt in the engine room.

.

I reiterate that I do not believe that is a strong flank combo...

Chjw131 I agree Youngs has done well but as I said on here a few days ago I think all 3 hookers are pretty level at the moment, and I'd like selection to be based on who plays best for their club in the lead up to the AIs.  I only stuck Webber in there because, of the 3, I think he probably has the highest ceiling so is play him if no one else was sticking their hand up.  If Youngs continues his form from the Lions tour then the shirt is his, but we've all seen the comedown that can affect players after Lions tours or World Cups.

GeordieFalcon wrote:You see i think Robshaw is set in stone at the moment. Until Kvesic or Fraser put in such good performances that take the shirt of him.

It concerns me though that we have so many positions wide open.

Now i like compeition and players fighting for the shirts...but id still like to see a few more players penned in...give the side a bit more of a setled look, with their competition fighting to take it off them.

Im not sure Launchbury is set in stone either CHJ.

Slater v Attwood could take that 4 spot alongside mr Consistant Parling. Thus Launchbury might not even start.

Its just so wide open...and i wish it was a little less so now...

Possibly so GF but Attwood I think is competing for that 5 shirt now as he's lead the line-out well for Bath and England on tour. Launchbury was id'd by Lancs from the start as a star of the future and I think he's just going to give him as much game time as he can. His athleticism and increasing size will only add to his favour.

Slater will hopefully get a chance at some point I like his style at 4.

I know what you mean on the penning in front, but lest we forget this team has only been going for a season and a half under Lancs pretty much and whilst i'd also like to see more the evolution of the game plan which is hopefully under way has meant the evolution of the team. Otherwise we could pen in the likes of Barrit and Wigglesworth!

Im not convinced of a Croft, Wood flank.

Also some have listed May and Wade...on the wings. What about Yarde, who was excellent all season adn finished it with a powerful pacy set of performances in Argentina?
Then theres Ashton...who on form could excell running off Morgan, burns and 36...

jeffwinger wrote:Chjw131 I agree Youngs has done well but as I said on here a few days ago I think all 3 hookers are pretty level at the moment, and I'd like selection to be based on who plays best for their club in the lead up to the AIs.  I only stuck Webber in there because, of the 3, I think he probably has the highest ceiling so is play him if no one else was sticking their hand up.  If Youngs continues his form from the Lions tour then the shirt is his, but we've all seen the comedown that can affect players after Lions tours or World Cups.

Agree it has to be a form choice. Would we say the same for Cole though? I personally think Wilson was playing better than Cole for part of the season and certainly on tour and against the Barbarians.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im not convinced of a Croft, Wood flank.

Also some have listed May and Wade...on the wings. What about Yarde, who was excellent all season adn finished it with a powerful pacy set of performances in Argentina?
Then theres Ashton...who on form could excell running off Morgan, burns and 36...

Yarde was very impressive on his debut. To be honest we could make a case for changing the whole team bar Corbs. Wilson did superbly for example and I wouldn't rule him out taking Cole's place if he gets a chance.

CJ...what about Charlie Matthews..with Kohn retired he should nail first choice for Quins, is a monster and has publicly been named by Lancs as one to watch...so he could be in the mix come the re picking EPS in January...

I think there's little to choose between Wood and Croft as options at 6, and Wood and Robshaw as options at 7.

Wood at 6 and Robshaw at 7 is probably the most combative pairing, and the strongest duo at the breakdown, but for me Croft at 6 and Robshaw at 7 is the optimal combination with Morgan at 8. It has a good balance to it. Robshaw is a tackling machine, Morgan will carry all day long, and Croft has the lineout skills and the pace to get around the park. All three are comfortable handling the ball and would be playing in their club positions (assuming Robshaw stays at 7).

Little to choose between the options really. Billy Vunipola for me is the ideal impact sub, particularly given the supreme fitness of Wood, Croft and Robshaw, and the fact that Morgan tends to tire around the 60 minute mark if he's been heavily involved in ball carrying duties.

I'm not saying a 6. T Croft 7. T Wood 8. B Morgan would be the best BR in the world and i'd like some more abrasiveness at 6 but it does enable a heavier SR combo. 4. E Slater and 5. D Attwood for example, whilst retaining an excellent line-out.

Yarde was very impressive on his debut. To be honest we could make a case for changing the whole team bar Corbs. Wilson did superbly for example and I wouldn't rule him out taking Cole's place if he gets a chance..

And therein lies the problem CHJ,

Even the AB's who have competition in every spot have a pretty settled lineup...you can probably name pretty much most of the starters..

We are worryingly the opposite....naming one or 2 starters...with the rest totally up in the air. And personally i think thats a worrying position to be in....THIS more than any is the season Lancs needs to nail down the majority of the positions and say...right we go with this core...and maybe tweak the others according to opposition or form...

GeordieFalcon wrote:CJ...what about Charlie Matthews..with Kohn retired he should nail first choice for Quins, is a monster and has publicly been named by Lancs as one to watch...so he could be in the mix come the re picking EPS in January...

Indeed what about Matthews? Is he a 4 or 5 though? Have you seen the Chiefs young lock Will Carrick-Smith GF? 6'11 and 21st or so I think.

Yarde was good in the summer but Wade was consistently excellent for Wasps all year. The time has come for Wade to play wing for England. I'd be terrified to see him running onto the pitch at Murrayfield in the spring. He can score tries from anywhere and ask questions of any defensive system (not that Scotland has one).

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Yarde was very impressive on his debut. To be honest we could make a case for changing the whole team bar Corbs. Wilson did superbly for example and I wouldn't rule him out taking Cole's place if he gets a chance..

And therein lies the problem CHJ,

Even the AB's who have competition in every spot have a pretty settled lineup...you can probably name pretty much most of the starters..

We are worryingly the opposite....naming one or 2 starters...with the rest totally up in the air. And personally i think thats a worrying position to be in....THIS more than any is the season Lancs needs to nail down the majority of the positions and say...right we go with this core...and maybe tweak the others according to opposition or form...

I agree and think that's the aim of the game. It's part of the reason he's taking so long over this EPS. This will be the vast majority of the players for the RWC team with maybe just one or two changes in the coming time. IF her can get the game plan right and settles I don't think we'll be in this position come the NZ tour.

Interesting reading through these comments. Lots of variaiton in who people perceive to be starters, or possible future combinations. I think generally speaking, there are very few players set in stone for England. I'd say 4 possibly are: Cole, Corbs, Ben Youngs, and Manu.
 
Come the Autumn, I would like to see a starting squad of:
 
1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
 
9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden
 
It was really hard for me to include Ashton there, but with 2 real ball playing guys in Burns and 36 lined up, I think he could find some form again there. Otherwise, Wade would be there for me. I just worry than Wade and Yarde would leave us very 'slight' on the wings.
 
I still think Wood, Robshaw, and Morgan is our best backrow, and is really nicely balanced.
 
Tough on Launchbury I know, but I'm not a fan of the Parling-Launchbury pairing to be honest. A little on the light side for me.

Ok we need to stop now... 

I know matthews probably wont be in the mix this season.
It'll be out of Attwood, Parling, Launchbury and Slater, Kitchener i would imagine.

I havent seent hat lad from Exeter...thats just rediculous...he's a monster.

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:CJ...what about Charlie Matthews..with Kohn retired he should nail first choice for Quins, is a monster and has publicly been named by Lancs as one to watch...so he could be in the mix come the re picking EPS in January...

Indeed what about Matthews? Is he a 4 or 5 though? Have you seen the Chiefs young lock Will Carrick-Smith GF? 6'11 and 21st or so I think.

 Haha, just googled him. That is simply ridiculous!

Yarde was good in the summer but Wade was consistently excellent for Wasps all year. The time has come for Wade to play wing for England.

Fes, most agree Wade MUST be on one wing...but ask many prem fans and they will on mass just about say Yarde was the best winger they saw in a dire LI team to boot. Others may shout for May.

Vedder...for me Ashton will shine even more with Morgan in there...Ashton running lines off his runs. But does Ashton start over Wade, Yarde, May etc...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok we need to stop now... 

I know matthews probably wont be in the mix this season.
It'll be out of Attwood, Parling, Launchbury and Slater, Kitchener i would imagine.

I havent seent hat lad from Exeter...thats just rediculous...he's a monster.

Indeed. I think Lawes will remain though which I don't mind. I'd like to see Kitchener secure his place at Tigers but that's unlikely with Parling there.

I'd like to see an in form Ashton back in the team but I think given all the flack he's taken over the last few months he'll need to go back and score a few tries for Sarries before he'll be welcome by the majority of casual supporters.  We all know how heavily influenced this team is by the uninformed bandwagon brigade, and how this can completely screw with players' confidence.  Lancaster's selections tend to track what the newspapers have said with about a 6 month delay, so I'd expect Ashton to be out in the cold for the first half of the season at least.

On recent form he doesn't get in the side, but as others have said, with a more expansive game plan and players like Burns and Twelvetrees creating gaps, he could be an ideal man to exploit them.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:CJ...what about Charlie Matthews..with Kohn retired he should nail first choice for Quins, is a monster and has publicly been named by Lancs as one to watch...so he could be in the mix come the re picking EPS in January...

Indeed what about Matthews? Is he a 4 or 5 though? Have you seen the Chiefs young lock Will Carrick-Smith GF? 6'11 and 21st or so I think.

 Haha, just googled him. That is simply ridiculous!

I have seen him, met him. He is humongous

bluestonevedder wrote:Interesting reading through these comments. Lots of variaiton in who people perceive to be starters, or possible future combinations. I think generally speaking, there are very few players set in stone for England. I'd say 4 possibly are: Cole, Corbs, Ben Youngs, and Manu.
 
Come the Autumn, I would like to see a starting squad of:
 
1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
 
9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden
 
It was really hard for me to include Ashton there, but with 2 real ball playing guys in Burns and 36 lined up, I think he could find some form again there. Otherwise, Wade would be there for me. I just worry than Wade and Yarde would leave us very 'slight' on the wings.
 
I still think Wood, Robshaw, and Morgan is our best backrow, and is really nicely balanced.
 
Tough on Launchbury I know, but I'm not a fan of the Parling-Launchbury pairing to be honest. A little on the light side for me.

It's def got the makings bluestone. I think Ashton will be retained but I think Wade has to play. He came on and some plays were run off him and he just added something to the team. Likewise for Eastmond I will also say. Agree that Parling/Launchburry is too lightwieght but i'd like to see Attwood come in to partner Launchbury who will be a really special player given another season or so.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:CJ...what about Charlie Matthews..with Kohn retired he should nail first choice for Quins, is a monster and has publicly been named by Lancs as one to watch...so he could be in the mix come the re picking EPS in January...

Indeed what about Matthews? Is he a 4 or 5 though? Have you seen the Chiefs young lock Will Carrick-Smith GF? 6'11 and 21st or so I think.

 Haha, just googled him. That is simply ridiculous!

I have seen him, met him. He is humongous

Rob Baxter is no fool when it comes to talent spotting either so let's see if he can make the Cheifs line-up who are a bit short at SR with injuries at the moment.

jeffwinger wrote:I'd like to see an in form Ashton back in the team but I think given all the flack he's taken over the last few months he'll need to go back and score a few tries for Sarries before he'll be welcome by the majority of casual supporters.  We all know how heavily influenced this team is by the uninformed bandwagon brigade, and how this can completely screw with players' confidence.  Lancaster's selections tend to track what the newspapers have said with about a 6 month delay, so I'd expect Ashton to be out in the cold for the first half of the season at least.

On recent form he doesn't get in the side, but as others have said, with a more expansive game plan and players like Burns and Twelvetrees creating gaps, he could be an ideal man to exploit them.

Agree, Ashton has done very well at times for England and was a sensation for Saints with Foden in 10/11. Give him some time out to rediscover some form and he could be excellent again.

Yeh, I agree Launchbury will be the guy for the future. It all really comes back down to LT's earlier post about SL picking and choosing in response to form. It's a careful balance. SL has to get it right so that players who don't deserve their call up aren't there, but also ensure he isn't chopping and changing the team too much.

Wade simply must play. He is both a try scorer and creator. I don't think we should automatically drop Ashton but given his defence, how does having him on one wing stop the defence being lighter than if it were Wade?

I think Ashton will have to show some exceptional form to get a look in. I also think its a year or two (or more) too early to look outside of the usual suspects at 2nd row. (those being Parling, Launchberry, Lawes Attwood and possibly Slater).

Tough choices at 6 and 7, but Robshaw was exceptional most of last season. He isnt the fastest- but he has a very wide skill range plus a great motor and an almost Richardesque ability to be in the right place at the right time

Should be an exciting year though

Should be a good year. We'll see how Fraser comes back who was very unlucky to get injured. Kvesic could go very well too at 7 for Glaws.

I think Ashton will have to show some exceptional form to get a look in. I also think its a year or two (or more) too early to look outside of the usual suspects at 2nd row. (those being Parling, Launchberry, Lawes Attwood and possibly Slater).

Dont forget Kitchener played the most games of all the SR's for leicester last season...and played very well. Personally i think he adds a bit more of a powerful option than Parling. Thats going to be some battle for that club shirt this season...

The lessons of the Lions Tour hardly apply to England apart from the obvious,
forward platform,Defence,Goalkicking etc.His record since taking over is good versus
Nh sides,Wales excepted.Indifferent versus Sh the NZ match excepted.
He has a good squad to play with plus maybe the France based players too RWC is usually
only contested by 5 sides.
A SH finalist is likely at least but to soon to judge from now NZ will probably not retain it
too many players going out to gether.

So we finally got a date for the squad annoucement: August 1st

HOw would people feel if the back three for the 1st Ai's was...

11 Brown
14 Ashton
15 Goode

GeordieFalcon wrote:HOw would people feel if the back three for the 1st Ai's was...

11 Brown
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Disappointed would be the word

In fact i forsee a backline of

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

Stop killing my optimism GF!

 sorry CJ,

GeordieFalcon wrote:HOw would people feel if the back three for the 1st Ai's was...

11 Brown
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Like the sun had been extinguished for ever?

If Foden has a strong start to the season, none of those players could start in the AIs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:In fact i forsee a backline of

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

If Foden and Brown are in the same back line, they are more likely to be the other way around.

Youngs, Tuilagi and Foden are who'd I'd like to see.

Farrell and Ashton I could live with. Personally I would prefer Burns at 10 but I can see the merits of Farrell. Ashton is a player I like, and believe has a future for England, although at this moment in time there should be a few players ahead of him. In any case, it wont matter who plays on the wing if we continue with the gameplan from the 6 nations.

Brown is an obvious no no on the wing.

The major issue I would have is with Barritt. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that his inclusion is the single biggest impediment to the success of this team. Lancaster clearly has a soft spot for him, but as long as he's in the side, our attacking game will flounder.