Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

First topic message reminder :

Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

The back row of Wood-Robshaw-Morgan has played in 3 tests. It lost one, by one point to SA who we frankly outplayed and they outplayed let down by a freak try and Robshaw's controversial captaincy choices. We have scored 91 points (average of over 30) in those matches and conceded 55 (average 18 points). It's a damned effective back row and hasn't been outplayed

I don't think its just about the balance of the backrow, but the balance of the back 5 and what you want them to achieve during a game. If you look at the pack from those games CJ you had:

4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

From that you've got Launchbury, Wood and Robshaw who are very good all round players and go through a huge amount of work both in the tight and in the loose, which I think is key to how England want to play as they allow others to play their own game and generate quick go forward ball. But England need the lumps in the back 5 to compliment them like Morgan and without this we struggle to get on the front foot in the first place. Take him away, like what happened in the 2nd half of the 6Ns, and we struggle. Its this reason why I think we need another heavy weight in the back 5, mainly to take the burden away from the 8 (Morgan or Vunipola) but also to provide more grunt up front in the collision area. As such, I think Attwood needs to kick on this year and succeed Parling in the engine room. For me a pack of:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Offers the best overall platform from which England can build their attacking game. Also looking at the benches in the SA, NZ and early 6Ns games the key lesson was impact and physicality. For that reason I would like to see Haskell included as the backrow cover for the bench. For me his is a very underated player and has proven to be one of Englands most consistant performers since 6Ns 2011, offering cover for all back row positions and a physicallity that other potential suiters can't. If it wasn't for Wood I'd actually have him start as it would be one hell of a physical back 5. For me a bench of:

16. Webber
17. Marler/Vunipola (either/or, whoever takes the bull by the horns at the start of the season)
18. Wilson
19. Lawes (My opinion, most will disagree, but I think offers a better impact off the bench over Parling, jumps well at 4 and if he comes on for Attwood Wood can lead the lineout)
20. Haskell

I think the EPS is an often misunderstood squad. It's not, nor does it have to be a squad for a series. So it doesn't have to be completely stocked in all areas.

For example, I'd have 8 front row. Corbs, Mako, Marler, Youngs, Hartley, Webber, Cole and Wilson should all be in. All have been involved in the squad over the last year or two, 7 played tests over the summer and all could conceivably start the first autumn international - without a need for a raft of injuries to get them in.

I would also take 3 10s and 3 12s, for the same reason. They'd be Farrell, Burns and Flood at 10 and Barritt, Twelvetrees and Eastmond as 12s.

However, I'd only take 2 9s. As mentioned, there's not much behind Care and Youngs. I'd also only take 1 outright 13 in Manu Tuilagi.

These are the elite players in England and they are the ones I know I need to monitor before the Autumn Internationals.

This would be balanced by my Saxons picks. As 9 and 13 are weak areas in my squad, I know I have to provide ample cover in my Saxons squad. This would also allow me to pick a wider range of "possibles" in these positions that could be called up in case of injury, but after I'd had a chance to assess their early season form.

My EPS would be (and I'll need to put in my Saxons' squad as well to give you the full picture):

Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola
Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Cole, Wilson
Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Parling
Croft, Kvesic, Robshaw, Wood
Morgan, Vunipola

Care, Youngs
Burns, Farrell, Flood
Barritt, Eastmond, Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Ashton, Wade, Yarde
Brown, Foden, Goode

Saxons:

Mullan, Wood
Buchanan, George, Lindsay
Doran-Jones, Thomas
Kitchener, Kruis, Robson, Slater
Fraser, Gibson, Haskell, Johnson,
Crane, Waldrom

L Dickson, Robson, Simpson
Ford, Myler
Allen, Burrell
Daly, Joseph, Tomkins
Biggs, May, Monye, Sharples, Strettle
Abendanon

There's enough players in that Saxons with senior squad experience to step up in case of an injury, but if there is a more inexperienced player on better form (either in the Saxons or outside both EPS squads), then they can leapfrog the Robsons, the Dicksons and the Strettles that would only be called up for continuity.

In all honesty Robbo, i dont think your far away at all from what most of us would go for (maybe the odd player change) and what Lancs himself will pick.

Great mix, some experience, youth, power players, finese / creative players...pace...gives you all sorts of options.

All those talking about seeing Kvesic coming in as a "natural 7" wasn't he fairly anonymous over the summer? I certainly don't remember our turn over rate going up dramatically or any barn storming runs by him.

Yes he's very raw so we can not expect much but I do think that a lot of you find Robshaw boring and so are constantly looking for new exciting prospects regardless of facts.

Robshaw carries well, he offloads well (which hardly any of our pack do), he stands in at 10 and changes slow ball to attacking ball, he tackles his heart out and rarely misses, HE TURNS BALL OVER, he is learning to make the right decisions and leading the team well, he has the respect of the squad.

His only weakness is pace. He is not a fast 7. That is literally the only weakness you'll find in his gameplay and that's why he's the captain of currently one of the best teams in the land and that's why he's the national captain. Any young pretender had better be Poopie hot if they're going to take his place.

Sorry for the rant, wasn't really expecting that when I started but it feels good to have got if off my chest.

Well said, that man. I'd add that one important reason he doesn't deliver big yards is that most of his carrying is done when slow ball needs to be reset, so he's deliberately going into traffic.

I've said it before but it bears repeating. For any given thing that a flanker does, you can easily point to someone who does it better than Robshaw or Wood. But there are few - and I would say no EQPs - who do enough things better (and at a high enough work rate) to be a better all-round package. Croft is different, in that what he does is unique and exceptional enough to offer a very different alternative, but in international rugby his best performances have always been when paired with a good all-rounder.

On Kvesic's summer performances, a few counterpoints:

1. It's hard to rack up the turnovers when the opposition barely have the ball due to the outstanding performance of our front 5.
2. Do you not recall his tackle count? Not normally something I take too seriously, but 29 tackles in a test match is an impressive body of work.
3. He was playing his first international matches, so give him a chance to ease in a bit.

Having said all that, I definitely wouldn't be putting him into the starting side now ahead of Wood, Croft or Robshaw. Perhaps if he gets off to a flier with Gloucester, but he's got a battle on his hands to win that starting shirt as well (I expect even rotation).

yappysnap wrote:All those talking about seeing Kvesic coming in as a "natural 7" wasn't he fairly anonymous over the summer? I certainly don't remember our turn over rate going up dramatically or any barn storming runs by him.

Yes he's very raw so we can not expect much but I do think that a lot of you find Robshaw boring and so are constantly looking for new exciting prospects regardless of facts.

Robshaw carries well, he offloads well (which hardly any of our pack do), he stands in at 10 and changes slow ball to attacking ball, he tackles his heart out and rarely misses, HE TURNS BALL OVER, he is learning to make the right decisions and leading the team well, he has the respect of the squad.

His only weakness is pace. He is not a fast 7. That is literally the only weakness you'll find in his gameplay and that's why he's the captain of currently one of the best teams in the land and that's why he's the national captain. Any young pretender had better be Poopie hot if they're going to take his place.

Sorry for the rant, wasn't really expecting that when I started but it feels good to have got if off my chest.

Don't disagree with any of this really, except that I do remember Kvesic making one excellent carry at least on Tour. Also, I think there is a genuine question about balance still. Everything you say is true, but that what about 2 players who cover all areas exceptionally rather than two very very good all-rounders. Not sure Kvesic is there, certainly not yet. But as you say, Croft offers something very different...i actually think Haskell does as well.

I'm not advocating Croft ahead of Robshaw, but we need to think about how we want to use our bench. Is it to change a game with something different or maintain continuity and pressure with something similar. I really like Wood, I think if I had to start either him or Croft I prefer him as a 'natural' 6 - but from the bench, I think Croft could offer more.

Kvesic, IMBO, wasn't anywhere near as good as most people seem to think (the best forward in that series was Morgan by several miles) but his tackle count WAS unreal to be fair

Yes Morgan was good...but Davy Wilson was pretty good aswell.

I agree Yappy about Robshaw. He's first choice and is have not only proven quality...but also consistantly HIGH quality. Him and Wood make a VERY good combo offering all skills to a high level.
Add in the carrying of Morgan and it makes a very interesting trio.

As said previously, IF the young pretenders come through this season and make Robshaws position at risk fair enough, but they're going to have to be putting in some seriously consistant and high quality performances.

I think at the end of the day, we've got to see more of a 6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan backrow.

Individually they are all brilliant, and the few times we have seen them play together for England, they have been excellent. I fully expect this to be our starting backrow over the AIs.

Full elite squad:
Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

Didn't realise our players were playing for Australia, sorry

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 But that he doesn't have to to be higher in the world rankings.

Why take the calf when you can have the bull?

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 

On a serious note I can't wait to see Jones vs Corbs in the 6N, should be a great contest (preferably with Walsh nowhere near it until he learns what a bind is)

Lets hope Corbs is fit enough for us to see it...CJ

His injuries are a worry, but he appears to be putting in some serious effort to make sure he is fit and ready to go for next season.

Not sure if you guys will have seen this, but apparently he's spent some time this summer in New Jersey, and has worked out at the world famous DeFranco's gym. DeFranco's is renowned for getting college american football players into shape for the NFL draft, and their record speaks for itself.

Here's an interesting video of Corbs training there- apparently he tore it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlwP2hsjLkI&feature=youtu.be

Ah well thats good to hear...hes our top 1 by quite a bit at the moment...we want him firing..

Yeh, great news. Give the video a watch when you have a chance GF- as a fellow weightlifter it makes for interesting viewing!

Hes looking in good shape...explosive powerful and agile for a front rower...

Yes impressive - I don't think there are many props with the agility to jump squat high onto those cushions like that!

Yeh, serious strength. Apparently he sled-pulled 500lbs over 50 meters or something, in a record time

bluestonevedder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 But that he doesn't have to to be higher in the world rankings.

Why take the calf when you can have the bull?

You're right, I would have preferred the 6 Nations title with the Grand Slam than without it.

The Saint wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 But that he doesn't have to to be higher in the world rankings.

Why take the calf when you can have the bull?

You're right, I would have preferred the 6 Nations title with the Grand Slam than without it.

To have done that you would have had to avoid your 8th straight defeat but......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21285946

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

The Saint wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 But that he doesn't have to to be higher in the world rankings.

Why take the calf when you can have the bull?

You're right, I would have preferred the 6 Nations title with the Grand Slam than without it.

To have done that you would have had to avoid your 8th straight defeat but......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21285946

True. But we got to the point where in the final game we could beat England by 8 points to take the championship. However Wales beat them by 27 points and at that moment all was forgiven .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21817341

Living in the past mate, see you in 2014

Oh come on it's not like it was in 2003 or 1966... We'll see YOU, in 2014.

Welcome to Fortress Twickers, different ball game

The Saint wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

The Saint wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

The Saint wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

Yes, he will have learnt that he still can't beat Wales to save his life. Aus 16 - 41 Wales Lions.

 But that he doesn't have to to be higher in the world rankings.

Why take the calf when you can have the bull?

You're right, I would have preferred the 6 Nations title with the Grand Slam than without it.

To have done that you would have had to avoid your 8th straight defeat but......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21285946

True. But we got to the point where in the final game we could beat England by 8 points to take the championship. However Wales beat them by 27 points and at that moment all was forgiven .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21817341

Yes but surely Wales should be looking beyond beating England. Your first team if all fully fit are a match against NH sides but you have much to prove beyond that.
If you recall 4 of the front 5 for the Lions were English when the game turned in our favour.

See what I did there?  

Wasn't the game already in the lions favour? Technically? The Aussies were coming back into it but we already had the advantage due to Corbs' scrummaging and try?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Wasn't the game already in the lions favour? Technically? The Aussies were coming back into it but we already had the advantage due to Corbs' scrummaging and try?

Yes true but the heavy duty points were all scored when the Lions front 5 were English.

The Aussies were knackered though after being battered by the bigger, more physical Welsh boyo's. 'Size does matter.'

Strange the lions kicked on when the donkey duo of Phillips and Hibbard went off?
Never moan about ppl disrupting threads again eh WLG?

Breadvan,
Watch out, babe. I suggested the same thing and almost had my virtual head cut off.

But you are right. Connor Murray, in particular. Same as hitting the petrol when merging on the autobahn.

I agree on Phillips, I stood by him but he was below average during the tour, though not to an extent where it had a detrimental effect on the game/series. I think this has showed he might be out of gas for the level required in the international arena. However there were thunderous calls for Youngs AKA the anti-Phillips to come into to the starting team and his performance was the worst of all 3 No.9's on tour. Murray's was the best. Disagree on Hibbard, he was a fundamental part of the game plan. He played well in the tests IMO, though Tom Youngs was still the best of each of the hooker's.
Not disrupting a thread Breadvan,just having a little fun . I was happy with a few bites but then people decided to start obsessing over Wales again, hence why I am still here.

Bugger off then.

This thread was a fine bit of navel gazing till you showed up.

On a side note I like the new EPS. And not a Callum Clark in sight!

Corbs video is impressive, but then to be fair if you watch Haskell's training videos they are awesome. What ever kind of character he is you can't fault his work rate. And he makes good coffee too http://angrysquirrelcoffee.com/

The Saint as long as you beat the English......

It's all that matters to you. Unfortunately with that attitude you'll never be the best in the world.

Getting ahead of England in the world rankings would help too....

Don't feed the troll

beshocked wrote:The Saint as long as you beat the English......

It's all that matters to you. Unfortunately with that attitude you'll never be the best in the world.

Getting ahead of England in the world rankings would help too....

The rankings? They aren't much use now to be honest, since the RWC draw has taken place. And France beat you to 4th spot.
As long as we beat the English? That's all we do lately so get over yourself . You went 30 years without beating Wales! And Sarries aren't the best team in the world either.

Ah but England is Wales World Cup final...thats their big game so they're always up for it.

Englands more bothered about the big teams of the world...Australia, SA and NZ...

Thats why wales will never be a top tier side... 

Yeah keep telling yourselves that everyone only cares about beating England. I hope we play the SH teams after they play England this autumn, because they won't bother trying against us now that the 'big game' is out of the way. Arrogant English . 

No your getting us wrong Saint...its not EVERYONE that wants to beat the English...its ONLY the Welsh!  

The Welsh would like to see their team beat everyone, including the English. Your boys are okay, we swept them aside on the last three occasions without conceding a try and carried them during a Lions Series win. But you still don't get the message...okay on a serious note, on a scale of 3 to 30, how much do you believe the Welsh want to beat the English?

I see what you did there... 

You should do stand up..."carried them through the lions"?? thats a cracker...."its the way ye tell 'em"

GeordieFalcon wrote:No your getting us wrong Saint...its not EVERYONE that wants to beat the English...its ONLY the Welsh!  

Instead of disparaging Welsh determination to beat England at rugby, ask why England can't beat Wales at rugby more often. The record is 124 matches played, 56 wins each and 12 draws. That's a country with 53m people versus a country with only 3m. Even allowing for the fact that football is THE national game in England, it's a poor record by a country with 17 times the population.

Arrogant English? Lol. That hat is firmly this side of the bridge. Has been for years. Welsh lions, 3 titles in blah blah...Sing when your winning.

This thread is going well