Rugby league - our flexible friend

Having 99 years (officially) of additional experience in professional rugby, the latest agreement in RL is to propose

A reduced league
A return to promotion/relegation
An abandonment of semi-franchises via its licencing system
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/23264272

Whither Rugby Union in England?

This post is will hopefully be compared and contrasted with a parallel thread https://www.606v2.com/t46299-players-call-for-global-season#2179610

It's much easier for Rugby League to be flexible. Beyond four counties in England, two States in Australia, one department in France, where they're not even permitted to call it rugby, a minority of the rugby fraternity in New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, the game doesn't have too many people to satisfy.

They can accommodate everyone's season because there are only two club leagues that matter; regular internationals of note are hardly ever played outside the leading three nations. Union may not have the global scope of soccer, but it is played to some degree of international competence on every inhabited continent. Much harder to obtain the sort of consensus that will both work and continue to develop the game around the world.

captain carrantuohil wrote:It's much easier for Rugby League to be flexible. Beyond four counties in England, two States in Australia, one department in France, where they're not even permitted to call it rugby, a minority of the rugby fraternity in New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, the game doesn't have too many people to satisfy.

They can accommodate everyone's season because there are only two club leagues that matter; regular internationals of note are hardly ever played outside the leading three nations. Union may not have the global scope of soccer, but it is played to some degree of international competence on every inhabited continent. Much harder to obtain the sort of consensus that will both work and continue to develop the game around the world.

Which one of them isn't inhabited?  I was just recently thinking about going off and discovering a new continent.  That news has certainly given me hope that there is one still out there waiting for my name to be put on it.  Secretania.

SecretFly wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:It's much easier for Rugby League to be flexible. Beyond four counties in England, two States in Australia, one department in France, where they're not even permitted to call it rugby, a minority of the rugby fraternity in New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, the game doesn't have too many people to satisfy.

They can accommodate everyone's season because there are only two club leagues that matter; regular internationals of note are hardly ever played outside the leading three nations. Union may not have the global scope of soccer, but it is played to some degree of international competence on every inhabited continent. Much harder to obtain the sort of consensus that will both work and continue to develop the game around the world.

Which one of them isn't inhabited?  I was just recently thinking about going off and discovering a new continent.  That news has certainly given me hope that there is one still out there waiting for my name to be put on it.  Secretania.

 

captain wrote:It's much easier for Rugby League to be flexible. Beyond four counties in England, two States in Australia, one department in France, where they're not even permitted to call it rugby, a minority of the rugby fraternity in New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, the game doesn't have too many people to satisfy.

They can accommodate everyone's season because there are only two club leagues that matter; regular internationals of note are hardly ever played outside the leading three nations. Union may not have the global scope of soccer, but it is played to some degree of international competence on every inhabited continent. Much harder to obtain the sort of consensus that will both work and continue to develop the game around the world.

The point is cap'n, that RL is a highly concentrated sport (particularly in England).

Many RU fans here on 606variants have proposed those RL processes of league size expansion, of licensing and abandonment of relegation and promotion.
Citing RL as their model of success.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The point is cap'n, that RL is a highly concentrated sport (particularly in England).

Many RU fans here on 606variants have proposed those RL processes of league size expansion, of licensing and abandonment of promotion of relegation and promotion.
Citing RL as their model of success.

who exactly

Antarctica isn't inhabited, SF - well, there are a few scientists and a lot of penguins and seals, but you'll have a job coaching them to count up to the fifth tackle.

Antarctica is not big in terms of inhabitants. Don't think they're permanently based there. NZ does have a rugby team that thrashes the US each year but league is yet to make an appearance as far as I know.

SecretFly wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:It's much easier for Rugby League to be flexible. Beyond four counties in England, two States in Australia, one department in France, where they're not even permitted to call it rugby, a minority of the rugby fraternity in New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, the game doesn't have too many people to satisfy.

They can accommodate everyone's season because there are only two club leagues that matter; regular internationals of note are hardly ever played outside the leading three nations. Union may not have the global scope of soccer, but it is played to some degree of international competence on every inhabited continent. Much harder to obtain the sort of consensus that will both work and continue to develop the game around the world.

Which one of them isn't inhabited?  I was just recently thinking about going off and discovering a new continent.  That news has certainly given me hope that there is one still out there waiting for my name to be put on it.  Secretania.

For directions look up the hollow earth theory!

Interesting that they are going back to promotion and relegation. One of the reasons that the Rabo has failed to win spectators is that in the vast majority of games there is nothing to play for.

In the AP pretty much every game counts either for home semi, a play-off place, Heineken Qualification or avoiding relegation. The disadvantage of this is that players are relatively tired when it comes to HC and Internationals but it does provide a more compelling spectacle and hence large crowds e.g. Gloucester getter larger crowds than Cardiff despite have a much smaller population and similar rugby heritage.

About 5,000 people live on Antarctica in summer months, down to around a 1000 in winter.  Children have been born there.  They could certainly muster a (shoite) League team if they could get around to agreeing what Nation's colours they'd wear.

Perhaps yellow?  In honour of the colour snow and ice gets when it's inhabited by humans.

. wrote: St Helens player Jon Wilkin, chairman of the Super League Players' Association, said change was required in the competition structure.

"When you've got a relatively restricted player pool you have to sort a lot of players from overseas," he said.

"We were probably overstretching our resources and this is an opportunity to make the competition more intense, commercially viable and sustainable - and that's what's probably in the players' best interests in the long term.

"Promotion and relegation is something associated with British sport. Some clubs have a rich history and have been an integral part of the game, so it's good to have access back to the top flight. It's a positive step for the game, if tied up with a strong commercial plan."

Is interesting

Exiledinborders wrote:Interesting that they are going back to promotion and relegation. One of the reasons that the Rabo has failed to win spectators is that in the vast majority of games there is nothing to play for.  

In the AP pretty much every game counts either for home semi, a play-off place, Heineken Qualification or avoiding relegation. The disadvantage of this is that players are relatively tired when it comes to HC and Internationals but it does provide a more compelling spectacle and hence large crowds e.g. Gloucester getter larger crowds than Cardiff despite have a much smaller population and similar rugby heritage.

While this may be one of the reasons it's far down the list of the main reasons Rabo crowds are low (and they're not actually that low).

I agree about the rabo crowds. There are plenty of competitions in the world that do not have promotion or relegation that are hugely popular. Consider the 6 nations as only one example. The crowds in Ireland aren't bothered by this "problem" in the rabo. Other factors contribute to this.

As a matter of interest how popular is rugby league now? Is it a growing sport or not?

Is there any professional irish rugby league players?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is there any professional irish rugby league players?

Brian Carney is on TV as a commentator quite a bit these days.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Having 99 years (officially) of additional experience in professional rugby, the latest agreement in RL is to propose

A reduced league
A return to promotion/relegation
An abandonment of semi-franchises via its licencing system
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/23264272

Whither Rugby Union in England?

This post is will hopefully be compared and contrasted with a parallel thread https://www.606v2.com/t46299-players-call-for-global-season#2179610

If League is contracting at the top level, wouldn't it make sense to subsidise a club or two up north to take advantage?  League and Rugby are different sports, but this might be a business opportunity to firmly plant Rugby Union in the north of England, no?

Here is the draw for the next RL World Cup:

Australia A versus Australia B
England A versus England B
New Zealand A versus New Zealand B
Papua New Guinea versus Luton Girls Choir.

Should be a thriller as always!

doctor_grey wrote:
If League is contracting at the top level, wouldn't it make sense to subsidise a club or two up north to take advantage?  League and Rugby are different sports, but this might be a business opportunity to firmly plant Rugby Union in the north of England, no?

Doc, I would doubt League is contracting by any significant degree and whilst any drive to engage more people in Union would be good I think you'll find it is and always has been firmly planted in the North of England.

True,  rugby is strong in the north of England, it is just seen as a participation sport more than a spectator one.  

I've mentioned this before,  but I think the long term goal has always been to get three strong northern teams (Sale, Leeds and Newcastle) and to a certain extent this has been achieved.  Certainly if you consider it from a player development point of view.  Look at the England squad at the moment Henry Thomas (Sale), David Wilson (Newcastle), Kearnan Myall (Leeds), Lee Dickson (Newcastle), Richard Wigglesworth (Sale), Rob Webber (Leeds), Ben Foden (Sale), Calum Clarke (Leeds), Danny Care (Leeds) Geoff Parling (Newcastle) and Toby Flood (Newcastle).

When they are playing well the Northern teams can get people through the gates too, Newcastle and Leeds both have got average attendances of around 8000 a week in the past and Sale have been up to near 10,000.  These were just never built on with the success and the ability to hold onto players.  The fact that Leeds/ Newcastle have come to be seen as selling clubs hasn't helped attract fans IMO either.

I hadn't realised so many players were developed from n orthern clubs. So the interest is there, then it must be that the clubs haven't really been successful, apart from Sale for a while. I don't think their old groiund helped, though.

When was the last time Newcastle had a decent record for more than a season or so? For the longest time it seemed they were barely hangin on, which is not good for the club image.

Financial and coaching/management have been the major problems. Falcons recent period of poor results is hopefully at an end now they have a seriously strong coach and commitment from their investor. Leeds took a huge gamble on Back and Keys and came unstuck and now have to build from the ground up and not being able to hang onto the talent that comes through the academy hurts. We've now lost Diccon Edwards who was doing great work, producing a very attractive brand of rugby that was starting to seriously challenge. With no big money to throw at it we've appointed an unknown from a Union perspective, so what happens next is anybody's guess. Everyone knows the shambles Sale created for themselves last season on the coaching front.

So, in summary, Sharks may be sorting themselves out, Falcons are showing every sign of sorting themselves out and Carnegie are in unknown territory but will continue to develop and lose 1st class players.

doctor_grey wrote:I hadn't realised so many players were developed from n orthern clubs.  So the interest is there, then it must be that the clubs haven't really been successful, apart from Sale for a while.  I don't think their old groiund helped, though.  

When was the last time Newcastle had a decent record for more than a season or so?  For the longest time it seemed they were barely hangin on, which is not good for the club image.  

Newcastle maintained mid-table obscurity and regularly supplied players to England up until around the 2007/8 season, then things went down hill from there and so did the average attendance.

Newcastle has supplied many Kangaroos and Kiwis as well.

Is the league administration really any different from union. It's probably worse. But that's what you get when the administration is run by clubs for clubs. probably the saving grace for union has been the home championship (and it's successors), more tours to the UK, the world cup and inclusion in the olympics. It has had a small international growth and potential for more, despite the IRB.

I am not so sure I would use League as a positive example.  In England it seems to me to be fighting an inevitably losing battle.  Money attracts money.  And despite Rugby not being the best managed sport, it does have more attention grabbers, more major fixtures and a more global footprint than League.  If one were to make the arguement that Union and Leagure are still in conflict, which I don't, then each person who goes to watch Rugby at the world cup will reduce attendance at League matches.  

Rugby and League are different sports.  But any weakening of League as a professional sport does present an opportunity for Rugby.  But that is years ahead.  Rugby needs to sort its' management out first, if possible.

doctor_grey wrote:I am not so sure I would use League as a positive example.  In England it seems to me to be fighting an inevitably losing battle.  Money attracts money.  And despite Rugby not being the best managed sport, it does have more attention grabbers, more major fixtures and a more global footprint than League.  If one were to make the arguement that Union and Leagure are still in conflict, which I don't, then each person who goes to watch Rugby at the world cup will reduce attendance at League matches.  

Rugby and League are different sports.  But any weakening of League as a professional sport does present an opportunity for Rugby.  But that is years ahead.  Rugby needs to sort its' management out first, if possible.

I agree completely. Leagues problem is that it is a club dominated game. There is no effective international board and club structures have choked growth.

The problem in NZ and Australia (and the Pacific) is that it is bigger and richer than union. We were buffered when the game went professional, as Sky put the hard word on the NRL to hold off recruiting. These days are gone. The current drain to league is probably substantially bigger in NZ than it's ever been (it's just that players targeted are generally 15-18 years old).

Interestingly, Australian national secondary schools sevens champions are Keebra High School (3 years running - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCwWEnTtpyM). They don't have a union program, they do have kiwi union recruits though. They are also arguably the top league school in Australia, which means we often see the same kids back here playing the NZ under 18 team (again with union converts) in Aussie colours.