Thought the Gatland/Lions debate would have calmed down by know...

...but looks like the children are still in charge of the debates...

 

I did post previously to say that the board resembles a school nursery, but my post was removed as it had nothing to do with Rugby...

I'd like to know what the majority of churlish posts on here about the Lions and selection have to do about rugby. As from my viewpoint they are using selection as nothing more than to attack a WINNING Lions Coach and Team. Unbelievable...

Well thats about it, I have better things to do than filter through all the myre, so until the AI (or till the mods pull this as well)... adiós

It's a shame, because there are some really interesting points to debate arising from this tour.

Gatland and co clearly did an awful lot right. Winning the series was fantastic and only losing two games, by two points and one point respectively, is a mighty achievement.

However I don't think it's petty or churlish to also debate areas of the tour where things could have gone better. That's what these boards are for.

As an example, from a Scots perspective, Stuart Hogg's deployment at 10 was clearly an error. No-one can argue that there are not better 10's in Britain and Ireland - there are better 10's in Scotland. Perhaps the Brumbies defeat could have been avoided with a specialist 10.

I also think, and the 1st and 3rd Test confirmed this, that Vunipola's role should have been limited to that of impact sub. I'm sure even Gatland would concede this with hindsight. Sure, losing Healy, Jenkins and Corbisiero was a blow, but Vunipola should have remained a bench player, with Grant starting. If Gatland didn't trust Grant to scrummage, then he should have called up someone he did trust, Sheridan or James perhaps.

Just some points worth debating in my view. Doesn't take away from the fact that Gatland has led an extremely successful and memorable tour.

I now what you mean, Biggles. I now a few guys who should now better but instead keep opening threads even know on the subject!

Know is not the time to be acting an eejit pretending to be frustrated that it's still going on and creating a thread to prove what everyone already nows

Some elements of the tour were flawed. The result however was not.

Biggles, methinks you were worried things were calming down a bit and thought a quick squirt of kerosene might help matters.

 

Keep the 'Home' Nations fires burning.

Ivor Novello songs?

"We'll keep a welcome (because everybody else hates you)"

You're correct Biggles. It's amazing how some idiots can still dispute the facts. The series decider team was supposedly full of average Welsh journeymen who lacked Lions ethos. The thrashing dished out to the Aussies and the credentials of Gatland's CV says it all really.

Yes, so what if a better selection had led to a more convincing victory and validated the Lions concept more against a depleted Australia. The point is that Gatland seized the moment when the Wallaby coach was sacked and leveraged his antipathy to the extent if manufacturing an albeit rather dull and stuttering series victory.

The most important skill in coaching is the ability to be in the right place at the right time. Simply astonishing what level of ineptitude that will validate.

Thanks for contributing to the whole thing blowing over by starting a new thread on the topic.

Seriously, best thing to do- start a new thread on a different topic. Talk about something else. Eventually everyone else will too.

 

So what people are really wanting is a Lions tour where we win the series and everybody gets on well with each other and there is no media controversy or disappointment about team selection and no injuries. Maybe a 2017 "Once Upon A Time" Tour sponsored by Disney is the way forward where we win and there's a fairytale ending with a scotsman scoring the winning try with a length of the field move - All players and coaches hug and there are knighthoods and OBE's all round to a fanfare homecoming.

Until then we'll have to settle for passion, pain, controversy, embitterment, fall-out, relationships ruptured and repaired, frustration, drama, more bitterness, vitriol and nuclear fall out. - More Tarantino than Disney but which one would you want to watch ?

sirBiggles wrote:...but looks like the children are still in charge of the debates...

 

I did post previously to say that the board resembles a school nursery, but my post was removed as it had nothing to do with Rugby...

I'd like to know what the majority of churlish posts on here about the Lions and selection have to do about rugby. As from my viewpoint they are using selection as nothing more than to attack a WINNING Lions Coach and Team. Unbelievable...

Well thats about it, I have better things to do than filter through all the myre, so until the AI (or till the mods pull this as well)... adiós

I think we all doubt that but always good to have a few Walter Mittys on this site, and I think you mean "mire" not "myre" which I believe is an old name for an insect or ant (apologies if I am incorrect)

For my part I honestly can say it was the most forgettable tour except for the last 40 mins of the last test

Huh, what happened to the Gatland CV thread overnight? I was being educated by fa, posting in a civil way, then wake up and it's been vaporised?

For a bunch of supposedly testostarone filled rugby lovers it is amazing how many whinging girls we have on the rugby section.  

ebop wrote:Huh, what happened to the Gatland CV thread overnight?  I was being educated by fa, posting in a civil way, then wake up and it's been vaporised?

Me too I had typed out a "witty" riposte and when I sent it just bl00dy upped and walked off into the sunset?

ebop wrote:Huh, what happened to the Gatland CV thread overnight?  I was being educated by fa, posting in a civil way, then wake up and it's been vaporised?

It should be back in the morning. It was a very good thread wasn't it, with plenty of civil discussion. Shame the usual suspects (probably like the one above me, (didn't catch the last post) kept attempting to derail it. I don't understand why people do not like being presented with the facts.

The Gats CV thread went downhill pretty rapid. All the nonesence on there made me miss Toy Hunter on tv  

The Saint wrote:

ebop wrote:Huh, what happened to the Gatland CV thread overnight?  I was being educated by fa, posting in a civil way, then wake up and it's been vaporised?

It should be back in the morning. It was a very good thread wasn't it, with plenty of civil discussion. Shame the usual suspects (probably like the one above me, (didn't catch the last post) kept attempting to derail it. I don't understand why people do not like being presented with the facts.

Saint its dross like your post there that caused it to go downhill so fast. Don't go spoiling this one too

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The Gats CV thread went downhill pretty rapid.  All the nonesence on there made me miss Toy Hunter on tv  

Who is Miss Toy Hunter? She sounds interesting.

I think you're exaggerating there SS. There were two or three nonsense posts hours ago, which if dealt with at the time should have prevented in going downhill. From what I remember the thread was getting back on topic and back to good discussion before it vanished. I hope it comes back as a lot of Scottish and Irish posters don't seem to be aware how good Sir Warren Gatland's CV is ...

Not everything that buzzes is a fly is her motto.

The Saint wrote:

ebop wrote:Huh, what happened to the Gatland CV thread overnight?  I was being educated by fa, posting in a civil way, then wake up and it's been vaporised?

It should be back in the morning. It was a very good thread wasn't it, with plenty of civil discussion. Shame the usual suspects (probably like the one above me, (didn't catch the last post) kept attempting to derail it. I don't understand why people do not like being presented with the facts.

Do you mean me?

I haven't had any dealings with you............ for you to make such a sweeping statement

Or are you a past person who has reincarnated himself for some reason?....... the only poster who typed in the "defensive" style like you was a utterly despicable creature named "morgan........something or other" but he appeared to be banned. I assumed that all banned posters are banned for life.

So of course you cannae be him..... can you

Well you did say you commented on the post, and if it was anything like this post here Fly then yeah I guess I was correct.

The Saint wrote:Well you did say you commented on the post, and if it was anything like this post here Fly then yeah I guess I was correct.

No I said I had typed out a reply and it didn't go through because the topic was pulled, and listening to SS comments on you, I am assuming you are the phoenix that has arisen from the dross of morganwg

Don't attempt to set up a smoke screen, your comments are clear about me and as I haven't any dealing with "the saint" I can only conclude it is because you have been another previous poster most likely the aforementioned "student".

I hope the Gatland CV is put back on and then not only Irish and Scottish posters can see the blatant cherry picking of data (another trait) of that topic.

Biltong

You need to look at the source, not just warn somebody for replying to an accusation with no foundation

I have never had any dealings with this "the saint" and yet he has strung up a statement with no backup

Fyhalf, I seen you wrote that you had commented, I must have misread the rest. Don't see why it upsets you so much though.

Anyway, need I reiterate my earlier comments? Forget 2005 as this 2013 tour is now (apparently) the worst ever tour. Forget the fact the Lions won a series, some fans can't see past their hate for Gatland. If a win isn't the best thing you can take from a game, tournament or Lions series then I don't see why we play rugby.

I have drawn two things from this tour...other than the Lions fully deserved the win due to the third test performance after two rustic and forgettable efforts by both sides (other than the key first test tries that is).

1 The Lions brand, side and fans are incredibly divisive by nature. We all knew that but I didnt realise its extent.

2 The treatment of Gatland, and the way he came through making CORRECT YET TOUGH decisions by the tours end, rather than the result itself, will lift the credibility of Gatland in the eyes of kiwi's in terms of his aims of being AB coach. It has in mine more than anything else in Gatlands career.

So thanks to Lions fans...Gatland probably jumps near the front of the queue...

Saint perhaps if Gatland and his CV and everything else that goes with it isn't blown up to epic proportions and overplayed all the time, others might not react as strongly.

Every subject has a shelf life, and at some point gets past its sell by date.

Fly, I reminded everyone of Scarletspiderman's warning.

Both sides are to blame those pro Gatland and those anti Gatland, I understand it is rugby and that emotions are involved, but for Pete's sake find constructive ways to contribute this personal nonsense need to stop.

The Saint wrote:Fyhalf, I seen you wrote that you had commented, I must have misread the rest. Don't see why it upsets you so much though.

Anyway, need I reiterate my earlier comments? Forget 2005 as this 2013 tour is now (apparently) the worst ever tour. Forget the fact the Lions won a series, some fans can't see past their hate for Gatland. If a win isn't the best thing you can take from a game, tournament or Lions series then I don't see why we play rugby.

I cannae comment on behalf of anyone else

For me Australia put out poorly represented club sides, the initial selection was poor, selection of retired players gave it the feel of a commercial circus. If Oz hadn't missed their kicks in the first test, and taken their kicks in the 3rd we might have gone into the second half of the 3rd test 12 pts behind, and possibly could have lost the series 3-0. Nothing wrong with the Welsh players but IMHO it was the tactics and management that was all wrong.

Good things for me...... 1/2p & JD2 was very good, Warburton put in an epic performance and fully deserved to be captain, North was tremendous, AWJ stood up when needed, Parling proved me wrong in the 3rd test, Farrell was the most improved player of the tour and all the players seemed to bond.

flyhalffactory wrote:

For me Australia put out poorly represented club sides, the initial selection was poor, selection of retired players gave it the feel of a commercial circus. If Oz hadn't missed their kicks in the first test, and taken their kicks in the 3rd we might have gone into the second half of the 3rd test 12 pts behind, and possibly could have lost the series 3-0. Nothing wrong with the Welsh players but IMHO it was the tactics and management that was all wrong.

Good things for me...... JD2 was very good, Warburton put in an epic performance and fully deserved to be captain, North was tremendous, AWJ stood up when needed, and all the players seemed to bond.

Yeah Aus did, with those combined XV's or whatever they were. Though the Super Rugby season is different I believe to what it was in 2005 and 2009. So some of the poor Aus franchises didn't get a break, like the Western Force. The Force and Rebels are two of the weakest S15 teams anyway so I guess there wasn't much more they could do. SA put out these representative teams and nobody seemed to mind at the time. Incidentally that tour was also labelled 'the worst' again, at the time. JOC the second choice kicker had a bad day with the boot but I don't think the history books record these moral victories. If you read Taylorman's post I think that is a good summation of the tour.
I agree with you on those said players, Lydiate played well too. The Irish won't ever admit that he and Warburton played very well in the tests. O'Connell and Heaslip really helped Warbs and took the pressure off him a bit, it's good news for us that he learnt from some of the best players and leaders Ireland have produced.

Taylorman - just to pick you up on point 1 of your post above.

It is only on rugby forums where fans are 'divisive'. Largely because they can post anonymously.

In Aus everything was fine by and large with Lions fans singing each others' songs. I saw no one fall out.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Taylorman - just to pick you up on point 1 of your post above.

It is only on rugby forums where fans are 'divisive'. Largely because they can post anonymously.

In Aus everything was fine by and large with Lions fans singing each others' songs. I saw no one fall out.

Hound,

Totally agree, there were a few bitter people around the area of Sydney I was staying in but overall we were singing all the songs and even (shock horror) some Irish agreed Gats was right.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Taylorman - just to pick you up on point 1 of your post above.

It is only on rugby forums where fans are 'divisive'. Largely because they can post anonymously.

In Aus everything was fine by and large with Lions fans singing each others' songs. I saw no one fall out.

Hound,

Totally agree, there were a few bitter people around the area of Sydney I was staying in but overall we were singing all the songs and even (shock horror) some Irish agreed Gats was right.

So that's a few Irish being (shock horror) even-handed.  Was any other nationality drifting off-script in your time there?

sirbiggles it might actually help if you didn't create yet another Gatland thread. Gatland has enough honouring his presence.

FES yes Grant = a deity.  

Gatland/Lions/Debate

I must have missed this. Remind me agaion?

Thought the RC debate would have started by now.  

No debate kia, thats why... NZ are going to get stuffed... do you regret throwing away those lucky pants now??? Threw them away in November last year right??? Perhaps you ate in the team hotel too!!!

That heat's getting to you mate. You've gone mad. No idea what you're on about...  

just assumed that NZ lost in Nov'12 last year because you misplaced your lucky drawers mate?

Just kidding. No fair dos. We lost the game. Come November though won't have to even wear the lucky underwear. Utu or revenge will be ours. And if we do lose it's because I wasn't wearing my lucky underwear...

Lucky you're from NZ and not Scotland though mate... had you been so you would have gone through more pants then a baby goes through nappies (assuming people throw them away when their luck runs out).

Doesn't matter on conditions, players or anything else... that match will be fight club I agree. England better expect to be bestowed an onslaught on a team not seen since the 1st lions test in 2009 or they may get an absolute hiding.

First RC match should be interesting. Cooper will be back... can he turn around AUS' fortunes? Can O'Connor get in the starting XV... wouldn't drop anyone for him at the moment... Ioane at 11 is his best chance but he has a great understanding with Cooper.

Wouldn't put it past AUS though to put in a barnstorming performance for McKenzie mind.

My father's Scottish so I do support Scotland in the 6N. It can be frustrating to say the least.

Don't think England will get a hiding. If we do win, it won't be by much. We don't tend to inflict big scores on England away.

Think it's a big ask first up for Australia. Will they try to take the game to us? Don't think it'll be a bad thing for them to open the game up. Cooper will be back in the mix but NZ will make sure that he and Genia are marked men.

It's going to be an interesting RC as every side is undergoing change to some extent.

NZ's change is mostly happening smoothly mind you with only a few problem spots. Lots of experience still in the team to help the young fellas along.

In terms of England and NZ

They have played 12 times since the start of the century with England winning 3 and NZ 9.
Englands winning margins were 17, 3 and 2 an average of 7.3
NZ's winning margins were 10, 13, 26, 32, 17, 21, 4, 24, 33, an average of 20.

Now I think everyone agrees NZ were stuffed by England in the last game.
So may be we could agree a 17 point margin is a stuffing.
We could then extrapolate that England will stuff NZ on average 1 out of 12 games and that NZ will staff England 6 out of 12 games and that, overall, on average, NZ will stuff England.