League Reboot

by sodhat Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Please register your interest should we press ahead and reboot the league.

This is also a good chance to air grievances with current rules and suggest new ones, as well as any innovations you have to make it better.

We may entirely ignore all suggestions, such is our wont.

Cherries
Gregers
Olly
Azzy
ZZZ
Nando (probably)
Afro
Hero
GSC
Trebs
sodhat

Need another 1 (or 3 or 5 or 7....)

Team Selection

Every team valued at 100m or below is available

Everybody bids for their preferred team

Maximum bid is 120m, Minimum 70m. Bids must also be at least TM value of the club

Any money left over from the 120m budget goes into your budget for a player draft

Results
Same as before

Voting
Same as before, however 1 good/bad point for each team required

TP Limit
Draft = no TP limit
Start of the league = £10m limit
Each week = £1m increase
End of season 1 = £19m TP limit (based on 10 teams, no cup weeks as we'd do that at the end)
End of season 2 = £28m

You could make it £12m > £21m > £30m if preferred?

This will change slightly depending on number of teams.

Injuries
AGREED AS 4 INJURIES PER WEEK

Do we want any form of transfers healing injuries?
NO

Whether to ditch U21 and nationality restrictions
AGREED TO DITCH BOTH

League structure - single league or not?
SINGLE LEAGUE

Cash loans (inc. implied in deals) being banned
NO CASH LOANS ALLOWED, ALL TRANSFERS MUST BE PAID UP FRONT

End of season loans when you have nothing to play for - how to stop these
NO LOANS ALLOWED EXCEPT EMERGENCY LOANS FOR GOALKEEPERS

Releases - same as before?
AGREED

Any squad limits?
22 MINIMUM, 30 MAXIMUM

Runner's Duties

Releases - Azzy
Injuries - Trebs
Posting tactics - Olly
Players within league - Afro
Results - sodhat
Lawyers - Trebs
Tables - sodhat
Fixtures/results list -Afro
Top scorers - Azzy
Premier League Prediction game - ZZZ

by Zinedine_Ze_Zebra Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:10 pm

onlytreblewinners wrote:I think people should be forced to explain themselves when they predict, can't have a vote imo.
i like the idea of a results panel of 4/5 who discuss the results. A proper old school method there.

That was the best I felt but didnt we do it so League 1 runners decided League 2 results, League 2 runners did League 3 & League 3 did 1.

Oh the days of our super league.

I still like the Injury system me & Hero said.

3) bidding on a selection of real life teams and then a draft to improve (with fixed budgets)

Id go with this option if there were some restrictions added. Level of Club you can bid on, player releases, real life loan players in/out do the all return to parent clubs etc. Few things would need to be discussed.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:10 pm

Olly wrote:
BigFellasAfro wrote:
Azzy Mahmood wrote:
Fernando wrote:So who gets 1st pick at it then cos whoever goes last is going to be seriously annoyed if they miss out
We bid on teams mate. So if you want Norwich, you need to bid as high as you feel comfortable (e.g. £80m), leaving you with £40m to spend.

What about the draft - what is the TP limit (if any)?

Norwich are quite tempting tbh. I am going to seriously consider them

Don't you dare

I'm not going to be taking part to make friends. Laugh

I am genuinely considering them

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:10 pm

So basically for team selection:

Every club squad valued 100m and under on TM is available.

You bid on the squad you desire, highest bid wins.

Maximum bid amount is 120m, Minimum 70m.

Any money left over goes into your budget for a player draft.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:11 pm

If we're going with smaller teams, I think either would be a tad high personally.

by **Hero** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:11 pm

I'd consider Norwich as well tbh, bringing in a lot of decent players at good value.

by Trebs Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:12 pm

If you want to build a side from scratch, just spend £10m on a team then draft in all the talent.

Also you would bid for teams so whoever wants Norwich the most will pay.

As for lawyers, i think it should be their TM value in euros, easy to calculate.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:14 pm

We took care of the first point Trebs. Minimum bid of 70m on a team. (I.e if I want a 50m rated squad, I still have to bid 70m for them.

Tis bidding.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:16 pm

GSC wrote:If we're going with smaller teams, I think either would be a tad high personally.

I would make it no TP limit as going for a star player is likely to leave you really weak across other areas of your squad.

You could make it no TP limit, but lower the max draft budget to, say £30m just to make this even more the case.

And if it is no TP limit, keep the cash coming into the league low so it would be difficult, and take a long time, to save up for the star players

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:17 pm

I do think the TP increases are a good thing for league longevity though tbh.

by Trebs Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:19 pm

Spot on, agree with everything then Ok!

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:19 pm

How squads/teams are decided, and starting budgets X
How results are calculated
Making sure feedback is actually useful and constructive
TP limit - yes or no
Injuries
Whether to ditch U21 and nationality restrictions
League structure - single league or not?
Cash loans (inc. implied in deals) being banned
End of season loans when you have nothing to play for - how to stop these

Personally I have no issues with the current results system.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:22 pm

GSC wrote:I do think the TP increases are a good thing for league longevity though tbh.

And perhaps use your sealed bids approach on the increases.

I am happy either way. What do others think?

by Trebs Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:24 pm

I would prefer a more results based rather than score based system, as i have campaigned for a number of times. But I'm happy to stick with the current system if I'm in a minority.

I like the idea of having no limit on TP values as long as cash is kept tight from the beginning.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:25 pm

Personally I do think an unlimited TP system does kinda defeat the point of having smaller teams.

Maybe 1 SP 20m bid and initial TP limit of 10m?

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:25 pm

GSC wrote:
How squads/teams are decided, and starting budgets X
How results are calculated
Making sure feedback is actually useful and constructive
TP limit - yes or no
Injuries
Whether to ditch U21 and nationality restrictions
League structure - single league or not?
Cash loans (inc. implied in deals) being banned
End of season loans when you have nothing to play for - how to stop these

Personally I have no issues with the current results system.

Me neither. Don't change it, but put in a plan B approach if less than a certain number of votes are received (depending on how many teams).

Also build in a rule that runners can disregard votes in they are obviously tactical/different from the consensus of other votes?

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:28 pm

I do trust (rightfully or wrongfully) that most will vote fairly.

Runners can use discretion if something is blatantly biased I think, but otherwise we should be ok.

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:29 pm

On results, we use the 'results' system in the Europa League. So a game where the votes are:

Afro = 3 (3-0, 3-1, 2-0)
Azzy = 3 (2-1, 1-0, 1-0)
Draw = 4 (2-2, 1-1, 1-1, 1-1)

Would be a draw; whereas totalling up the scores would give Afro 17 goals and me 10 goals, so he'd win. I don't like that myself.

In the EL, when it's a tie - say Afro 4, Azzy 4, Draw 2 - goals are then used to decide the outcome.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:29 pm

GSC wrote:Personally I do think an unlimited TP system does kinda defeat the point of having smaller teams.

Why's that? I don't see it.

If cash is more scarce, people aren't going to be able to do the big bids anyway are they. You will find that TPs will be naturally smaller as that is all teams can realistically afford and as the teams grow, the TP values will grow with it.

You will only get daft managers like our friend cherries who will spunk all his money on Neymar and have no one good around him

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:32 pm

I dunno, I'm just somewhat adverse to players like Cavani, Bale, RVP, Fabregas, Mata, Gotze, Suarez etc available at the start.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:34 pm

GSC wrote:I dunno, I'm just somewhat adverse to players like Cavani, Bale, RVP, Fabregas, Mata, Gotze, Suarez etc available at the start.

Okay, then don't make it unlimited, but put the cap reasonably high, like £25m in season 1 and going up each season

by Zinedine_Ze_Zebra Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:34 pm

How is releasing players from the Club you have picked going to work?

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Let's be realistic though GSC, there will likely only be one or two of those, and it almost always ends up in tears as people vote against those teams by saying 'if only Suarez had players around him who could get him involved in the game' etc. If I have £50m to spend in a draft, I'm looking at getting 2-3 quality players rather than 1 world beater.

by sodhat Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:On results, we use the 'results' system in the Europa League. So a game where the votes are:

Afro = 3 (3-0, 3-1, 2-0)
Azzy = 3 (2-1, 1-0, 1-0)
Draw = 4 (2-2, 1-1, 1-1, 1-1)

Would be a draw; whereas totalling up the scores would give Afro 17 goals and me 10 goals, so he'd win. I don't like that myself.

In the EL, when it's a tie - say Afro 4, Azzy 4, Draw 2 - goals are then used to decide the outcome.

It doesn't take into account that Afro's wins are more comprehensive.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:36 pm

Zinedine_Ze_Zebra wrote:How is releasing players from the Club you have picked going to work?

I think the same as currently, but with a max number each week (e.g. 4)?

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:36 pm

Why should it? The common result was a draw. The fact that people read the tactics differently and picked different holes in my tactics shouldn't detract from the fact that more people thought that game was a draw. Otherwise why bother with voting for a draw at all?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:38 pm

I don't see why we should change the results system, it works fine

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:39 pm

I don't think it's broken enough to have to fix it

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:40 pm

I dont really think its broken at all.

Maybe when 3 people voted, but thats an extreme circumstance.

by sodhat Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:41 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:Why should it? The common result was a draw. The fact that people read the tactics differently and picked different holes in my tactics shouldn't detract from the fact that more people thought that game was a draw. Otherwise why bother with voting for a draw at all?

It was the most common but it wasn't a majority. If we did it that way we'd have a great deal more draws than we do have.

I don't remember any instances where the system produces a massively unfair result.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:43 pm

BigFellasAfro wrote:
GSC wrote:I dunno, I'm just somewhat adverse to players like Cavani, Bale, RVP, Fabregas, Mata, Gotze, Suarez etc available at the start.

Okay, then don't make it unlimited, but put the cap reasonably high, like £25m in season 1 and going up each season

I'll go with the majority but I still like the gradual TP increases we have atm. Keeps it ticking over.

by cherriesfna Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Are we doing the 70-100 thing then?

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:47 pm

Quick scan of the TP market, Damiao is the highest valued player from available teams I think at 19.5m, then Benteke at 16m.

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:56 pm

Let's work through that list one thing at a time lads:

How squads/teams are decided, and starting budgets = AGREED AS BIDDING ON TEAMS BETWEEN £70M AND £100M
How results are calculated = AGREED TO KEEP AS IT IS
Making sure feedback is actually useful and constructive
TP limit - yes or no
Injuries
Whether to ditch U21 and nationality restrictions
League structure - single league or not?
Cash loans (inc. implied in deals) being banned
End of season loans when you have nothing to play for - how to stop these

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:57 pm

And I think feedback was agreed earlier, was it not?

Then we move onto TP limit - what should it be for the draft, and moving forwards?

My vote would be for no TP limit. Imagine if you spend £50m on a star player and in week 1 he gets a 4 week injury Laugh

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:57 pm

The good/bad points would suffice I think. Not asking for an essay.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:58 pm

My opinion remains that if we're starting smaller, players valued around 15m tend to be the star players in these squads.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:59 pm

Agreed on feedback - short to include one good point and one bad point for each team

My vote for TP limit is unlimited on the proviso that cash coming into the league is reduced by 1) lawyers being lower (TM+10% to the nearest 100k) and 2) bonuses being lower

Otherwise, I vote for a limit which increases incrementally

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:01 pm

I also think a TP increment narrows the market and promotes inter league trading. If everyone is available to buy at market value, why deal with someone who will want to be overpaid?

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:02 pm

But £15m players aren't going to improve anyone's team very much, are they? Not drastically anyway. I quite like the idea of being able to buy someone really special, then if he gets injured do an inter-league deal or keep him but suffer the consequences.

Imagine that Norwich side with Cavani in it, would it get very good votes? Or would that side get better votes with £16m Xabi Alonso + £19.5m Leighton Baines + £22m Isco in it?

I see what you're saying about accelerating the quality aspect of the league, but if we make money scarce, then it will take some time before more players come in.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:03 pm

GSC wrote:I also think a TP increment narrows the market and promotes inter league trading. If everyone is available to buy at market value, why deal with someone who will want to be overpaid?

Conversely, as we will have a lot of players we might not want, you can't sell above market value when better value is available "abroad". Could stop prices of domestics spiralling

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:03 pm

Making money scarce also means very little happens while people save up though.

I'll bow to the majority, but I'm not a fan of no TP limit.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:04 pm

I can definately see that there are pros and cons with both.

Perhaps it's another "it aint broke" situation.

What do others think please?

by Fernando Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:05 pm

What about having a maximum TP limit so say over a season you can only buy 5 over a certain limit so that's one every 2 weeks?

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:05 pm

BigFellasAfro wrote:
GSC wrote:I also think a TP increment narrows the market and promotes inter league trading. If everyone is available to buy at market value, why deal with someone who will want to be overpaid?

Conversely, as we will have a lot of players we might not want, you can't sell above market value when better value is available "abroad". Could stop prices of domestics spiralling

I'll believe it when I see it tbh. Nobody wants to give players away.

by Fernando Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:06 pm

Also how many people do we have in the league so far?

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:06 pm

One of the main reasons for domestic frustrations is that someone like Nick says "I want £50m for Kroos", when you can get Wilshere for £24.5m.

What about saying that any players sold through Lawyers can be bought instantly? That way, the seller can bargain a slight increase in price to an interested manager, giving him 'first refusal' on the player before it's a free for all to sign him off TM again.

by GSC Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:13 pm

I would say 1 bid up to 20m, and then a limit around 13-15m or so would suffice.

by **Afro** Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:20 pm

GSC wrote:I would say 1 bid up to 20m, and then a limit around 13-15m or so would suffice.

Happy to go with that

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:20 pm

Is someone keeping tally?

Azzy = no TP limit
GSC = draft limit of 1@£20m, otherwise £13-£15m to start the league
Nando = TP limit but allow 5 per season above the limit
Afro = has a poorly bum, that fence is getting uncomfortable

I think that if we introduce the injuries thing, inter-league deals are forced, meaning that even if hardly any players are coming into the league, there are still players moving around.

by Guest Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:21 pm

BigFellasAfro wrote:
GSC wrote:I would say 1 bid up to 20m, and then a limit around 13-15m or so would suffice.

Happy to go with that

And now he gets down Laugh

What we're essentially saying is, a repeat of the last draft, just with less-good players?

I don't like the fortnightly TP increases btw, it's too long. Make it weekly!

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