'prime mike tyson'

by wheelchair1991 Fri 19 Jul 2013, 12:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am a regular viewer of these boards and have been since it was the old 606 o the bbc website, one thing that perplexes me is the 'prime tyson' myth which has developed and is contiually talked about on these boards

tyson was no doubt great in the mid to late 80's but:
1 the division was poor in my view
2. his 'peak' was short and therefore does not deserve the credit it gets
3. when he should have been at his 'peak' he did not deliver

what are your guys views?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:39 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
JabMachineMK2 wrote:No, I have Wlad hovering around 13/14 - think if he beats Povetkin and Fury/Haye/Wilder at some point in the next few years he cements himself inside a top 10.

You are fighting your corner well.........But you'd give Wlad top 10 status for Wilder and Povetkin?

So they are better than ........Tubbs, Biggs, Williams, Tucker, Bruno, Holmes, Spinks and Thomas ???

Not just them no, but it would be almost a decade of dominance, beating every single heavyweight that presented a challenge - you can't ignore that. We can't base Wlads career based on the misgivings of the era otherwise we'd have Marciano outside a top 15 which would be ridiculous.

In that case Armstrong isn't in the top 10 of your p4p list because he was only at the top for 5/6 years and had the same amount of title fights as Mike.

by Gentleman01 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:45 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
azania wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Mike Tyson was massively overrated.

I'll ignore the wum..........Duty I expect a bit more than that from you.....wheelchair - 1991!! say's it all you weren't around Mate..

However at least you offer something to the board..

Oh I should elaborate shouldn't I? Here we go then, in no particular order:

1) Never beat a great fighter in their prime.
2) Couldn't beat Holyfield or Lewis.
3) Was Champion in a very weak era.
4) Was only a Champion for a combined 5 years.
5) Lost to Buster Douglas.
6) Poor stamina.

About 10-15 ATG for me.

The era he was champ was second only to the 70s. The fights with holy and Lewis was at the end of his career. Would you holdspinks and berbick aagainst Ali? Poor stamina? Such an ignorant comment.

You mean the absolutely weak late 80s era?
The fights with Holyfield were 8 years before he retired.
The fight with Lewis was closer to Lewis' retirement than Tyson's.
Poor stamina? How many times did he manage to go 12 rounds?

Out of curiosity, what 10 or 15 fighters do you rank above him?

I dont thinksome of the points you are making with regards Tyson reflect the picture accurately. Lewis was clearly closer to his best than Tyson when they fought. If you want to regard the longetivity Lewis was able to maintain then by all means but the fight when it happened was when Lewis was not too far off his peak years and Tyson was all but finished as a fighter. Saying Lewis was closer to retirement doesnt really hide that because he retired at the top wheras Tyson fought on long past his best with increasingly obvious poor performances. Calzaghe, for example, was technically closer to retirement than Roy Jones was when they fought but I would not consider it a valid means of eveluating their respctive conditions.

With regards to his short reign, without knowing who you rank above him its difficult to make comparisons but some other names:

Mike Tyson 3 years unified, 8 defences - 1 year post prison

Frazier - champion 3 years unified, 5 years partial, 9 defences total
Marciano - champion 3 years, 6 defences
Demspey - champion 7 years (inactive for 3 of those), 5 defences
Jack Johnson - champion 6.5 years, 8 defences
Jim Jeffries - champion 5 years, 7 defences

The likes of Liston and Foreman had shorter title reigns and the extent of Lewis' longetivity and dominance is often overstated in my opinion. In actual years Tyson would be on the short side but in terms of defences he is higher than many.

In terms of stamina, probably not his strongest suit but you are dealing with a fighter who was one of the most devastating finishers and knock out boxers.

When you say the the 80s was an incredibly weak era, which eras do ou rank as much stronger and why? The late 1960s and 1970s was strong of course, but outside that how many eras were significantly stronger? In particular if you account for Tysons title reign, which ten or fifteen heavyweights would boast a stronger win column?

I think Tysons wins in his initial title reign over the likes of Spinks, Holmes, Bruno /Tubbs/Thomas/Tucker would measure pretty reasonably to most of the other top heavyweights. If anything I think its slightly underrated in comparison to alot of other great heavyweights many of which I dont really think can provide a significantly better list of victims and performances to go with it.

Take for example an old great, like Dempsey. Did he beat anyone that could be considered better than even aged versions of Holmes or someone like Spinks? Willard is not better than Holmes and was even older and more washed up. He beat Carpentier and Gibbons but I dont think they are better wins than Spinks. He beat Firpo who I wouldnt consider particularly any better than Bruno. Probably worse.

Or looking at a modern great Lewis, who did he beat that was really coniderably better than Tysons list of guys? Similar levels of challengers with some common opponents and you could probably say that Holyfield and Klitschko stand out as champions in their own right. But the Klitschko fight was not a hugley satisfying win in its circumstances and Holyfield was ageing. He had beaten Tyson several years before but when Lewis got him (and Tyson) the timing favoured him heavily. I wonder how Mike Tyson from 1988 would have fared against Holyfield from 1999 for instance? When I look at Tysons 1980s spell it doesnt look that bad in comparison to alot of his rivals.

Probably the most accurate summation of the inconsistent standards applied to Tyson by his detractors. I have Tyson about 6-8 in the all-time rankings, would not argue too much with anyone who has him down at 12. Margins are very tight and there are a lot of factors to consider. It depends on what criteria one values.

It is nonsense to talk of the 'myth' of his prime, 9 defences compare very favourably with most other HW champs. I also agree Tucker, Biggs, Spinks, Holmes, Tubbs, et al. would compare favourably compared with the opposition faced by guys such as Dempsey, Marciano, Lewis, Johnson, Jeffries, etc.

It really is time to put these lazy cliches to rest.

by TopHat24/7 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:49 pm

Would say that Tyson's title reign is significantly better than both Marciano and JJ in fact.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:56 pm

Lets agree to disagree.

Tyson is under rated by some, over rated by others.

Lewis is under rated by some, over rated by others.

If we pick a middle ground, we can have them duking it out over 7/8th spot.

Lewis Wins, KO in the 8th Run

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:57 pm

The ko 8 is the point Jabby..........You and others seem to think it's a defining fight.

by bhb001 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 3:59 pm

Over rated then. I still have problems getting Lewis in my top ten, but respect the views of those that do. Five is pushing it a little too much for me.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:42 pm

Lewis is defined by beating Grant and Holyfield (in the first fight, not the second which was actually closer) and then just bumping on through the top heavys around like Golota and Tua. He proved himself as THE man for a long time. He also avenged his losses. I'll fight this opinion to the death. There are only a possible 5 other heavies in history that deserve to rank above him in my humble opinion.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:45 pm

Lewis is defined by a guy that Bowe beat twice and Grant...

Say no more...

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:47 pm

Mike Tyson on Lennox Lewis:

"There's no way I could ever beat him. He's too big and strong. I'm lucky I didn't get killed in there."

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:Mike Tyson on Lennox Lewis:

"There's no way I could ever beat him. He's too big and strong. I'm lucky I didn't get killed in there."

Well that's it then.........

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:54 pm

Larry Holmes on Lewis

At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe"

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:54 pm

I'm actually coming more and more round to the idea that Lennox Lewis was the greatest heavyweight of all time.

Yeah, I think he was.

by **superflyweight** Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:55 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Top 5 way too high for Lewis.

I've got him in the bracket of fighters between about 8 and 12 and who are interchangeable in terms of ranking. Tyson also in that bracket along with Frazier, Liston and Holyfield and I can never make my mind where each of them rank. Tyson and Lewis probably make the top 10 more often than not, but there are plenty of valid arguments against their inclusion.

If ranking on a head head basis - both Lewis and Tyson are duking it out for a place somwehere in the top 5 along with Ali, Foreman and Holmes.

good summary and pretty much how I see it.

Super, on a head to head basis, where would you put each of the K's??

This was the top 10 list I did when Shah ran a thread on heavyweight head to head rankings a few months back. Liston and Holmes interchangeable but I think I'd stick with the list below (on reflection, I think Liston blows out a few fighters that Holmes might struggle with).

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:55 pm

Rowley wrote:Larry Holmes on Lewis

At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe"

Larry Holmes is some bitter old man.

“My idea is to make him into a large version of Sugar Ray Robinson, not Muhammad Ali. Because I truly believe Lennox can be better than him. He can do things Ali couldn’t do. Lennox can box. But he still has that raw-boned punch power." Emmanuel Steward

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:58 pm

Holmes opinion doesn't count because he's bitter...and it doesn't suit Duty's narrative...

I'll swap you Steward for Eddie Futch..........Ko magazine........"what can Lewis do that Bowe can't...easy night!!"

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:59 pm

So when a former heavy great praises Lewis we take it unquestioningly but when one criticises him we dismiss him as bitter. Good system.

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:02 pm

Yes, let's take the opinion of a man who once said:

"I was probably the best that ever walked this earth. And I could take a punch. I could deliver a punch. I didn't have the hardest punch in the world but my punches were sharp and they were crisp. And if you took too many of them, you would be knocked out."

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:04 pm

Ali said Louis was the best ever Mate..............and then said he wasn't because he was an Uncle Tom...

let's take his word for it...

Your argument sucks..........listen to yourself..

by manos de piedra Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:05 pm

Probably best just not to take any boxers quotes too seriously

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:06 pm

Jake La Motta did the foreword for Archie Moore's book. He said that Roy Jones would not last five minutes with Archie. Do we take his opinion on that without question.

The only figure whose opinion I will take without any question is Eddie Futch. Now there is a guy who knew his onions.

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:06 pm

Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw - he wasn't American! Laugh

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:07 pm

http://thebiofile.com/2011/10/lennox-lewis-the-best-ever/

As the title says. The greatest of all time: Lennox Lewis.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw - he wasn't American!

You're trying to wum kiddo......and I thought you had more to offer than that..

by Duty281 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw - he wasn't American!

You're trying to wum kiddo......and I thought you had more to offer than that..

I'm right though aren't I? laughing

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:09 pm

Seriously are we reduced to posting links where people say someone is the best?

If so I can happily dig out an article from CBZ arguing James Jeffries is the best heavy ever, does not make it so.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:10 pm

Tommy Burns said he was better than Johnson on youtube Rowley.....

Must be true..

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:12 pm

Saw a quote in a book from someone saying Peter Jackson was better than Johnson, Dave will be over the moon.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:14 pm

How can Johnson compete with the guy who gave us The Lord of the rings ?? Cool

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:15 pm

Fury is telling us all he's the best ever.

Looks like I need to make room in my ATG list.

by manos de piedra Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:16 pm

Fury did it best I think. Not only did he say he was the best ever but he said there will never be anyone better than him. Thats how you close the matter and prevent pointless greatest ever debates in the future.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:17 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Fury is telling us all he's the best ever.

Looks like I need to make room in my ATG list.

In fairness he was 5-1 up on one card against Cunningham...

by winchester Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:54 pm

Tyson at his best was one of the best heavyweights ever. He was past it when he fought Lewis.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 6:04 pm

Thanks for that interjection.

by azania Mon 22 Jul 2013, 6:24 pm

Rocky was the best ever. angel

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:01 pm

winchester wrote:Tyson at his best was one of the best heavyweights ever. He was past it when he fought Lewis.

I'm warming to you kiddo.

by compelling and rich Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:06 pm

its good to see tyson can still produce so much debate, whats next hattons ducking witter thread?

not read through 5 pages but my main reasons why tyson doesn't make my top ten are that he was beat by the best opponents he faced. yes he wasnt at his best during this period but i dont see this as anything other than tysons own fault. dont want to go into another legal debate thread about the washington case but tysons life choices and his inability to handle the fame and money were a big downfall in him. i criticize naz for losing his hunger and not training properly why does tyson get a free pass? also would consider a fighters hunger and ability to motivate himself right up there as what makes a great fighter just as much as physical attributes like an iron chin, great left hook etc. dont remember ali giving up after his exile. also think there are still big questions marks about how tyson would fair mentally against the other ATG's

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:09 pm

Really I imagine Michael Spinks and Holmes will be higher in the alltime p4p lists than Lewis and Holyfield...

So that's a crock.

by Strongback Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:16 pm

[quote="superflyweight"]

TopHat24/7 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:

This was the top 10 list I did when Shah ran a thread on heavyweight head to head rankings a few months back. Liston and Holmes interchangeable but I think I'd stick with the list below (on reflection, I think Liston blows out a few fighters that Holmes might struggle with).

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

Horrible list.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:17 pm

Agreed strongy....

by Strongback Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw - he wasn't American!

You're trying to wum kiddo......and I thought you had more to offer than that..

Truss teaches the 'train the trainer' course on being a wum.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:18 pm

Strongback wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw - he wasn't American!

You're trying to wum kiddo......and I thought you had more to offer than that..

Truss teaches the 'train the trainer' course on being a wum.

No sign of a meaningful contribution yet....shame there is no Irish heavy.. Smile

by Rowley Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:20 pm

compelling and rich wrote:, whats next hattons ducking witter thread?

If only, the possibility of that one returning is the only reason I still hang around.

by **88Chris05** Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:20 pm

Strongback, in case you're unaware, I believe Superfly's list there was ranking the Heavyweights purely on a who beats who basis, rather than taking all aspects in to account. Certainly not a horrible list from that point of view.

by Strongback Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:21 pm

Sailor Tom Sharkey, Peter Maher.

O'Sullivan's parents were Irish.

Mike O'Tyson's dad was half Irish.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:22 pm

Strongy's list...........

1. Ali....
2. Louis
3. Rogan.........

by Strongback Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Strongy's list...........

1. Ali....
2. Louis
3. Rogan.........

1, Louis
2. Ali
3. Rogan

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:27 pm

Strongback wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Strongy's list...........

1. Ali....
2. Louis
3. Rogan.........

1, Louis
2. Ali
3. Rogan

Sad thing is..I believe it..

by compelling and rich Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:37 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Really I imagine Michael Spinks and Holmes will be higher in the alltime p4p lists than Lewis and Holyfield...

So that's a crock.

really? a old shot holmes and a light heavyweight were better than lewis and holyfield?! not having that one truss, must try harder

by **ShahenshahG** Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:38 pm

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 22 Jul 2013, 7:38 pm

You said he lost to the best opponents he faced................

Considering Spinks and Holmes were the best fighters he faced then it's a false statement....

Douglas was better than these two ???

Holy and Lewis beat a sliding Tyson...and even then they are below the aforementioned on the lists..

I don't need to try..

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