The 18th hole

Follow up to the earlier thread. Do you guys have any thoughts about how the last hole should be on any golf course? Should it be a par 3, 4 or 5? Should it be a tough finish or a relatively easy hole offering a birdie and a chance to walk off the course on a high?

My personal thoughts on this is to finish with a long tough par 4. Many newer courses tend to finish with risk/reward par 5's over water, but the older courses (eg most on the Open rota) seem to finish with a difficult and long par 4.

I don't really like par 3 finishes, 4 and 5 s are ok. I think for tournaments like the Open a tough finishing par 4 where a birdie is a really great score is probably more appropriate than a par 5 which the pros will usually have a good chance of making a 4 on.

A nice easy hole. One that you can walk off feeling happy. You may have had a stinker but a par or birdie on the last gets your spirits up and makes you want to play again.

A good par 4 requiring good first and second shots with a conservative and aggressive way to play it with some well placed hazards and a green complex receptive for the conservative players which also would allow the aggressive drivers a decent chance to attack the pins searching for birdie.

Basically a decent risk/reward profile that allows round consolidation or lights up the prospect of a final flare of glory.

Don't like par 3 to finish as it seems like a bit of a squib. Prefer a par 5 17th to an 18th.

Whilst it is an obvious topic after the opening hole thread, it has made me think back to reference on there how the 1st should possibly have at least a nod to the possibility of it being a 19th. Not as frequent a concern of mine (as I've usually been battered by 14/15/16 in matchplay by our local banditos) but you can see how coming off a decently constructed 18th and back on to a potentially easy opener would be incongruous.

It's an interesting question and I guess you have to look at it from two perspectives:

1. Match play. There is this great theory about the last hole being risk and reward so it becomes a hole that can win or lose a match. However, I've played 5 times at home this year for my club in match play against other clubs, and I've not played 18 yet. Statistically match play matches are as likely (more likely?) to end on the 16th or 17th.

2. Stroke play: There is this great theory about the last hole being risk and reward so it gives a player the opportunity to pick up a shot or two and overhaul the leader. But the vast majority of stroke play club competitions are over one round, so you can have no idea where you stand on the leaderboard as there are people still teeing off as you finish.

So for a normal club, 18 should be a testing par 4 or 5 that forces you to keep your concentration in place if you have a good round going, and for a championship course, it should be a par 5 with an element of risk-reward.

Just talking about TOC 1st on the other thread. I think TOC 18th is a rubbish finishing hole for a major. It can provide excitement when the wind is favourable and people try to drive the green, but it seems more often the conditions aren't favourable and finishing with a long iron and a pitch is dull and takes away any chance of drama

It's not just a rubbish 18th Ray, the whole course simply isn't dramatic enough to create a decent, exciting championship.
I'm amazed no one has never shot a 59 in a major there, plenty of people in my club have shot 64, 65 there and they are just normal decent club players. To hold it there every 5 years at the expense of courses like Muirfield and Carnoustie is an insult to major championships and really belittle The Open's position amongst other majors.
There are only a handful of decent holes on the course, a composite of The Old, New and Jubilee though would be excellent.

super_realist wrote:The Old, New and Jubilee though would be excellent.

What routing would you go for to make up that composite super?

18th Hole?
Anything (but preferably not a par-3) that doesn't include a demanding forced carry.
Pebble Beach's 18th (and Cooperstown) perfect in that regard - also like the par-4 18th at Quail Hollow, with the hillside to the right of the fairway, a small stream down the left-hand side. Slightly elevated green, straightforward (as Rickie Fowler showed) when played perfectly, trouble all around when you get out of position.

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:The Old, New and Jubilee though would be excellent.

What routing would you go for to make up that composite super?

Tricky Mac, but there is no doubt a composite course would be better than the unworthy Old.
I know you love it, and I enjoy playing it even though there are too many forgettable holes on it, I just don't think it's capable of producing memorable Opens' and if they really must hold it at St.Andrews for the sake of history, a few holes from the other courses to replace the awful 3rd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 15th and 18th would be good.

home course, 350 yard par 4, with a burn 5 yards short of the front edge of the green. not a demanding hole, but when on a score, centre of the green in 2 is a must, which is a knee knocker with anything over an 8 iron. guessing that a lot of the shorter hitters probably hate it.

away course, 212 yard par 3, usually played with a cross or head wind, with gorse lining both sides, wide bail out area about 50 yards short, but fairly well protected green beyond that. an absolute brute when you're on a score, demanding a solid straight long iron. i guess most higher handicappers probably treat it as a short par 4, but i've made 7 or 8 a few times when on a score and it's painful... on the other hand i've birdied it a couple of times to win comps and it's a super feeling. i kind of agree with having a toughie to finish, it means you have to play a really good pressure shot to complete a good score.

barragan wrote:home course, 350 yard par 4, with a burn 5 yards short of the front edge of the green. not a demanding hole, but when on a score, centre of the green in 2 is a must, which is a knee knocker with anything over an 8 iron. guessing that a lot of the shorter hitters probably hate it.

I remember this hole! RDBM!

rdbm indeed - a great final walk with craigmillar castle as a backdrop.

My home course has a real knee knocker 18th: 440 yard par 4, no changes in elevation to deal with but the green is protected by a moat in front and to the right, and OOB to the left and over the back. The green is long but quite narrow and is a difficult target to hit so the hole requires 2 perfectly struck shots to find GIR.

If I don't hit a great tee shot (ie less than 240 yards) easy decision it's a lay up for me. If I nail my drive 260+ yards I will go for it. However I have a real dilemma if I hit a solid drive around the 250 yard mark. It's a great risk / reward hole.

Hmm. For a home golf course I would like the risk and reward of a par four. But for a Open Championship or a tour venue, definitely and hard par four.

My home course has a decent 410 yard north facing left to right dogleg (so the prevailing wind pushes a loose shot right into trouble). There's a ditch diagonally across the fairway about driver distance and the approach is uphill. But for big board comps there is a Captains tee 40 yards further back.

Of the big courses I've played, Pebble & Carnoustie both have superb finishing holes. You could just never imagine TOC producing anything like the same kind of drama that Carnoustie's closer has delivered each time the Open is there.

JAS wrote:

Of the big courses I've played, Pebble & Carnoustie both have superb finishing holes. You could just never imagine TOC producing anything like the same kind of drama that Carnoustie's closer has delivered each time the Open is there.

Maybe, but the last on the Old Course is a fantastic sight on the last day of an Open when the leaders are coming up the fairway. It has produced some drama too - Doug Sanders, Seve's birdie, Rocca's fluff and then chip in.

Carnoustie's last hole is really a par 5, shortened for the Open to try to make it more dramatic. For most of its years it has really been a par five. The same is the case at Birkdale. It's all very well for the Open, but for the vast majority of visitors (ie the people who pay tons of money that helps to fund the course) it would be better left as a par 5.

Par 5 on 18 at Carnoustie?
444 off the Whites, 428 off the Yellow and 411 off the front tees.

A tough par 4, but nowhere near a par 5.

Yes, believe me it was (and sometimes still is) a par 5. There are tees further back than the Open Championship tee.

http://www.homeatfirst.com/carnoust.htm

18th at Remedy Oak is a cracker, though opinion can be influenced by whether you have visited the trees or water. I have known people call it a joke, but I've generally not agreed with much else they have said either! 340ish with a 90dg dog leg after a tee shot of 200-220 to a bunker on corner. Second shot is downhill over water, and length of tee shot determines whether flag position is guarded by a tall pine. Always have to check flag position before starting the round. Card never filed until you have dealt with 18!!!!

George1507 wrote:Yes, believe me it was (and sometimes still is) a par 5. There are tees further back than the Open Championship tee.

http://www.homeatfirst.com/carnoust.htm

Do they ever get played? I've never found it a particularly lengthy hole.

Puligny, easy hole...drive into fairway bunker, 6 iron to fringe and 2 putt...no dramas To be fair, Remedy's 18th did spring to mind when I went through the 18s that I'd played.

I've had it driver sand wedge Super but I've also had it driver, 4 iron layup before the burn.

I don't know how often it's played as a par 5 these days. Maybe not that often because everyone expects it to be a par 4.

The first time I played Carnoustie it was 500 yards, that was a long time ago. The last time I saw it as a par 5 was maybe 12 or 15 years ago now.

We have a nice par 5 on my course which I think is a good way to finish. Slight dogleg left, road all the way down the left. If you get a good drive away you can have a shy at the green in 2 but there are a lot of bunkers in play and OOB left and long.

Or you can play it as a 3 shotter and make par that way with a chance of birdie.

Its a fair hole with some danger but you have a chance of making birdie as a club golfer which I think is important.

Dartmouth GC in Devon has a 200+ yard par 3 finisher with water in front. Its a big downhill hole and very dramatic and I am glad to say that I have never played a medal there as it would could be a card wrecker!

George1507 wrote:I don't know how often it's played as a par 5 these days. Maybe not that often because everyone expects it to be a par 4.

The first time I played Carnoustie it was 500 yards, that was a long time ago. The last time I saw it as a par 5 was maybe 12 or 15 years ago now.

Interesting, I didn't realise it was ever a par 5, I guess that because they say it was "formally" a par 5 that they don't put it out as one anymore as they'd have to reprint scorecards and CSS and everything would be all to pot.

A much better par 4 than a straight forward par 5 though. Awesome course, and simply the best finish in major golf.
Last 3 holes are shiversomely hard.

Troon has a hard finish as well. It hasn't been so tough in the last few Opens there because of the weather, but the last six at Troon are a real handful for anyone in the prevailing wind.

And they come after the 11th, which I'd reckon is the hardest hole on the Open rota. Again, it's a par 5 converted to a par 4.

JAS - I recall you had a decent lie in the bunker! tee hee!
It did cap a very good round for you, and when you make par or better it is a fabulous hole!!! A nice full patio for a big comp adds a degree of spice!