3rd Ashes test Old Trafford

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD

Squad Alastair Cook (capt), Joe Root, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Bell, Jonny Bairstow, James Taylor, Matt Prior, Tim Bresnan, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Chris Tremlett, Monty Panesar

Mike Selig wrote:Those late 2 wickets, combined with England's passive approach have made it emphatically Australia's day.

This partnership is a key one, because these are the two guys who can bat for months without getting out. At the moment though England have quite a way to go.

Lyon looks threatening, and Australia also have Smith, and even Clarke and Warner to call on for some spin if need be. Having said that it was Siddle who got both wickets, with a bit of help from Mr Howell.

There are still no major demons in the pitch, but it is turning more and more, and the odd ball is staying low (but really few and far between, it is more in the mind than anything else).

 hard to see any way you wont have the win here.

and with the confidence from this and England batting more Athers era Poopie.. you can win these last three.  Clarke is right about that.  two more toss wins and good batting on good day one wickets and you will have the ashes back.

England can stop that but the batting has to improve massively.

A lot of finger nail biting tomorrow i can tell. Morning session is going to be very very key.

Boycott on TMS is laying into umpire Erasmus. And he has some typical things to say about Bresnan's shot as well, describing it as absolutely awful and the decision not to review as really stupid!.

from the start of D2.....
 
--and it looked like England had given up....and are in a dead defensive mind-set...was evident from the start of play.....and then throiuhg the... inning and then the way Root batted...and then the way they sent Bresnan the frozen Rabbit in hours before the close of play
 
--with this mindset you build pressure on yourself and it increases..and increases  .....and becomes too heavy and bowlers and opponents get all over you...and then you CHOKE.
 
--they need to break shackles.....tommorow morning else they will not only choke to defeat in this game.....but will surrender the advantage to Aus...for the rest of series.
it's like what India did to themsleves against Eng in the Nov/Dec test series.
 
--Aus has a lot more choice with seam bowling and with runs on the board their seam bowling is looking better than England's
 
--Lyon bowled well but is no swann...he give a release hit me for four ball ever otehr over.
 
aus mised a trick by not giving smith a bowl.
 
PS* the DRS comedy show continues.......even the master-of-the-art-of-review-team Eng doesn't trust what button the 3rd umpire might hit when a clear case of inches of air between bat and ball is referred.
total collapse of all the underlying principle(s) that DRS was introduced to address.
I hate to say......i told ya nails in the coffin of this guy with every passing inning

KP_fan wrote: the only reason why Bresnan did not review....because he didn't trust DRS.
even the Eng team doesn't know what DRS might show or not show...ha ha

clearly not an England fan.

 stealth safa?

Boycott is a passionate fan/ex player and he is spot on!

KP must be an Indian fan.. That is why he blames everything on DRS rather than the umpires

KP_fan wrote:from the start of D2.....
 
--and it looked like England had given up....and are in a dead defensive mind-set...was evident from the start of play.....and then throiuhg the... inning and then the way Root batted...and then the way they sent Bresnan the frozen Rabbit in hours before the close of play
 
--with this mindset you build pressure on yourself and it increases..and increases  .....and becomes too heavy and bowlers and opponents get all over you...and then you CHOKE.
 
--they need to break shackles.....tommorow morning else they will not only choke to defeat in this game.....but will surrender the advantage to Aus...for the rest of series.
it's like what India did to themsleves against Eng in the Nov/Dec test series.
 
--Aus has a lot more choice with seam bowling and with runs on the board their seam bowling is looking better than England's
 
--Lyon bowled well but is no swann...he give a release hit me for four ball ever otehr over.
 
aus mised a trick by not giving smith a bowl.
 
PS* the DRS comedy show continues.......even the master-of-the-art-of-review-team Eng doesn't trust what button the 3rd umpire might hit when a clear case of inches of air between bat and ball is referred.
total collapse of all the underlying principle(s) that DRS was introduced to address.
I hate to say......i told ya nails in the coffin of this guy with every passing inning

   

I never need go to Sickipedia these days to have a laugh.

KP had aussie having taken the series due to momentum during test 1 as well.

we'll see.

aussie could well win this series but if England win a toss and get the better in even one more test it'll more likely be them,

the coin toss could be vital.  neither team copes under pressure at all.

Trott and Cook at the crease and people are scared - come on! we will be fine!

There's still a long way to go if Aus want to win this one (namely 18 wickets). Plenty of runs in the pitch, but England need to show a bit more intent with their batting, and especially rotate the strike a bit more against Lyon (something Trott has struggled with at times though). They were far too timid this evening - scoreboard pressure and all that.

Siddle is a decent bowler to have on an up and down pitch (which this one is not... yet?), whilst Starc will look to take the pitch out of the equation.

I still believe that had Bresnan been a frontline batsman, or the Khawaja decision overturned, that he would have been allowed to review that. I can't help but feel that that's not how DRS is meant to work.

Yes I think your right tbh mike. It was i am sure partly to do with him playing as a night watchman. But the whole issues with the umpiring and the system we have in place also adds pressure to cook in reagrds to reviewing. Its a combination of both i think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23539258

Ironic isnt it. Bres talked about accepting umpiring decsions the day before!!

Obviously, Australia hold the upper hand in this test but lets just remember a few things. The pitch is still playing very well and with two days gone only nine wickets have fallen with almost 600 runs scored that tells us how good a wicket this is. Now lets look at the weather and rain is forecast on Sunday and Monday for Manchester. Hmmm paints a different picture doesn't it?

First two days go to the aussies. England need to win the third day to try and bring them back into this game. 330/6 would be a reasonable total to close on at the end of the third day (280/4 in the day). We know their is bad weather forecast and the game will probably be a draw, but we can't rely on that. We need to try and play ourselves back into the match before the bad weather arrives. In reality we need a big hundred from either cook or trot or one of kp's special innings. The good news is that all three have been relatively quiet so far and are due a good score. Should be an interesting and tense days play, especially the first session which will set the tome of play for the rest of the day.

LivinginItaly wrote:First two days go to the aussies. England need to win the third day to try and bring them back into this game. 330/6 would be a reasonable total to close on at the end of the third day (280/4 in the day).  We know their is bad weather forecast and the game will probably be a draw, but we can't rely on that. We need to try and play ourselves back into the match before the bad weather arrives. In reality we need a big hundred from either cook or trot or one of kp's special innings. The good news is that all three have been relatively quiet so far and are due a good score. Should be an interesting and tense days play, especially the first session which will set the tome of play for the rest of the day.

Yes I agree that England have to regain some initiative.I do feel certain England will retain the Ashes one way or another but how they do it matters as another Ashes Series follows immediately. If England allow Australia to play their way into this series their confidence will get a boost and they will be a much better side for it and could shine a totally different light on the series down under in the winter.

Having turned in and missed the last ten overs I haven't seen the wickets. Not totally surprised to see Siddle got them - why was he held back so long I wonder ?
England (Root in particular) were a bit too passive I thought. Seemed to be a let's get to stumps and we'll see what happens tomorrow attitude : and there were just a few too many overs for that approach. Which I guess makes Clarke's declaration quite a good one , even though it originally seemed a bit of an uneasy compromise...
So was Bresnan truly done by a bad call ? If he was it must surely be the case that the players just don't trust these umpires and/or the technology to correctly overturn caught decisions , and so won't risk wasting a review except for a top line batsman...which seems a pity as that is not how the system was supposed to work. At the risk of giving KP fan fuel for another one of his tedious finger pointing rants I have to say it might be time for a bit of a conference involving Test captains/coaches and umpires along with technical experts so that issues surrounding the application of DRS can be discussed , and perhaps a better understanding all round of the problems that arise might enable confidence to be restored ? Because I actually feel the system isn't too bad ( nothing will ever be perfect ) but needs a bit more consistency in its application.

Weather aside , Australia are in a good position , but may still find taking the eight wickets needed in this innings , let alone the second ten , will be quite a task. The odd ball turns sharply , but apart from that I have seen nothing to suggest a good team should be bowled out on this for under 350. Reckon a draw or an Australian win are both highly possible but given the history of this series so far I am not placing bets one way or other yet.

Only saw the one hour highlights programme last night but thought the decision not to review Bresnan's dismissal was very poor. I do feel there was an element of panicky indecision by Cook in not encouraging his batting partner to review which, as Alfie suggests above, is concerning.

There's a shoddy article on Bresnan's dismissal and related aspects by Simon Hughes in today's Telegraph. He concludes (maybe with a bit of tongue in cheek but not that much), ''... Bresnan took the noble option and sacrificed himself. Is that not what nightwatchmen are meant to do?''. Sorry but that's abolute b*ll*cks. If you have a nightwatchman (and I've never been keen on the concept, far preferring to back the batsman and let him back the team), his job is to do everything to stay there until morning and so prevent another batsman coming to the crease in that final session.

I know - unlike me -a lot of the posters here aren't generally keen on enforcing a follow-on. If Australia do get that option in this Test, I believe they have to take it. The clock running down and possible bad weather will be allies only to England.

That said, will it be easier for Australia to get into that position by taking 8 more wickets or for England to avoid it by scoring 276 more? England should be in the stronger position as regards that question but scoreboard pressure can do funny things, particularly if an overly defensive mindset is adopted.

I have every confidence we will get past the target with quite a bit of spare- if we cant we have totally collapsed. Rooty felt the pressure- shame and one of the first time si have seen him do this- maybe the expectation after a 180 odd did him.. Bresnan threw away his wicket-And he fell on his sword.. Well bres If you are going to do that then you shouldnt have come in. Because Trott wouldnt have!!!

I do find it a bit hypocritical about the posters on here calling for bres to review- when so many bang on about saving them and only unsing them for howlers..

As i have allways said- if you do that you end up with situations like this more than often.. Players dont review and should have more than not- due to the sheer lack off top quality umpiring

They seem to be a bit busier today..

they have to keep it ticking over though.

mystiroakey wrote:

I do find it a bit hypocritical about the posters on here calling for bres to review- when so many bang on about saving them and only unsing them for howlers..

My view is that Bresnan's decision was a howler and would have been shown as such by DRS. Bresnan and Cook, in particular, should have have had the confidence to review.

Bresnan should not have been viewed as a sacrificial lamb but as a mountain goat who still had a lot of uphill climbing to do.

Bat the day, and England retain the Ashes. Simple. I quite fancy Cook to make 150+ here.

If it was a howler they would have reviewed it.

You see the fact is its all in split second timing!

If you only want to review howlers you will miss more than you make. as this example has clearly shown up.

They dont get any benefit of replays.. So calling a holwer(one that missed the bat by 2 inches over 5 mm) is impossible to call in such quick time!!

We reviewed perfectly day 1. but we were unlucky. and lost both reviews.. That clearly had a negative impact on here and in cooks and the teams mind..


You cant have it both ways..

I think you miss the point about him being a sacrificial lamb- he just wasnt 100% confident that he didnt hit it!

He commented the night before that we must deal with umpires decisions- His mindset was very confussed. The pressure of him wasting a review tricked his mind in to not being confident

Unless you can proove that bresnan didnt say "i was 100% in we need to review it" I cant see the validity in blaming cook as you are . As if he sacrificed Bres

mystiroakey wrote:If it was a howler they would have reviewed it.

You see the fact is its all in split second timing!

If you only want to review howlers you will miss more than you make. as this example has clearly shown up.

They dont get any benefit of replays.. So calling a holwer(one that missed the bat by 2 inches over 5 mm) is impossible to call in such quick time!!

We reviewed perfectly day 1. but we were unlucky. and lost both reviews.. That clearly had a negative impact on here and in cooks and the teams mind..


You cant have it both ways..

Don't understand your comment about ''having it both ways''.

Its obvious - you cant just state we will only review howlers but then have a pop at a team when they dont review a not out or out decision originally favouring the other team!

You either only review howlers you 'THINK' are howlers in real time or you review decsions that you believe are out or in but are not 100% about it- but at least 60% right about it.

If you only review holwlers that you think are stone cold holwers you miss loads of decsions and you arnt using your review system effectively

At the end of the day England suffered by using two reviews up when fielding so the emphasis was probably on not wasting any more. Of course this one wouldn't have been wasted but was it really worth the risk for a night watchman? I'd say not as it is more than likely Bresnan would not have lasting much longer in any case. Best to use reviews on players you'd feel sure could make a difference with the bat. That is my opinion on this.

Missed the first half hour...slow progress ?

Tight bowling - cautious batting ...both ?

Oh, Jonathan Trott's gone. Early wicket for Australia, and more pressure on England.

Trott gone. Enter KP, with a point to prove.

...oops ! Shouldn't have tuned in as it seems I have done for Trott immediately ...

He is having a poor series. Good bowling from Harris though.

mystiroakey wrote:Its obvious - you cant just state we will only review howlers but then have a pop at a team when they dont review a not out or out decision originally favouring the other team!

You either only review howlers you 'THINK' are howlers in real time or you review decsions that you believe are out or in but are not 100% about it- but at least 60% right about it.

If you only review holwlers that you think are stone cold holwers you miss loads of decsions and you arnt using your review system effectively

I'm sure that's completely correct but would refer it to a DRS equivalent review if I could! I'll leave it at that.

I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

CaledonianCraig wrote:At the end of the day England suffered by using two reviews up when fielding so the emphasis was probably on not wasting any more. Of course this one wouldn't have been wasted but was it really worth the risk for a night watchman? I'd say not as it is more than likely Bresnan would not have lasting much longer in any case. Best to use reviews on players you'd feel sure could make a difference with the bat. That is my opinion on this.

Perfectly reasonable tbh.It is a wise and fine thought process..

However I do believe if Bres had been 100% confident about the decision-Cook would have reviewed.

Its so easy for people to have a pop and say its a holwer - they should have reviewed- no it is split splt second for them and its not obvious.

The only true holwer that can be picked up in real time that has happened this series is Broads knick!

The holwer crowd most understand it would be pointless for both teams to have only used up one review between them at this point in the test match. A total waste of the system..

But was Cook sure though? There was a noise and perhaps in real time (plus it was a night watchman batting so enhances the thought process that he hit it) Cook felt it unwise to suggest a review?

All this talk and no one has mentioned Trott OUT!

Trott not having a good series at all. He evidently is having technical issues at the moment that need addressing.

Well at least if kp bats for some time the scoring rate will increase. I know batting time is more important and the scoring rate is not so important, but also England shouldn't get into a defensive mindset.

So many England batsmen are struggling its a wonder they are ahead on this series at all.

When even Trott is struggling is does worry me that England aren't in a good place at the mo form wise.

Massive odds on the innings win for Aussie now surely?

England haven't impressed me with the bat for a long time as a team. Serious work is needed there.

Good half century for cook. Hopefully it is only a quarter of his job done.

mystiroakey wrote:I have every confidence we will get past the target with quite a bit of spare- if we cant we have totally collapsed. Rooty felt the pressure- shame and one of the first time si have seen him do this- maybe the expectation after a 180 odd did him.. Bresnan threw away his wicket-And he fell on his sword.. Well bres If you are going to do that then you shouldnt have come in. Because Trott wouldnt have!!!

I do find it a bit hypocritical about the posters on here calling for bres to review- when so many bang on about saving them and only unsing them for howlers..

As i have allways said- if you do that you end up with situations like this more than often.. Players dont review and should have more than not- due to the sheer lack off top quality umpiring

Trott wouldn't have?

Looks like he did and we have lost mr reliable.

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

That is true hood.

The arrogance had no base, we've collapsed like a pack of cards plenty in recent times.

We can bat when our bowlers give us a good platform but when the other team have dominated? No not really.

Hugely over rated ? Abject batting ?

Bit OTT I think. Lost Collingwood and then Strauss and have been having a few issues settling the replacements...and KP taking a few sickies hasn't helped. But although the regular 450s have been in short supply lately there have not really been all that many collapses. And when they have folded up they have generally fought back in the second innings...

I agree that the bowlers have done most of the heavy lifting lately ; but the batsmen have - mostly - done enough to win or at least not lose. Hopefully as Root settles in to the opening position the team will start to become more consistent with the bat. Today would be a good time for some solid stuff.

Harris replacing Watson. A bit surprising that Lyon hasn't bowled too much today, and Smith hasn't had a bowl yet in the innings on a track that offers something for the spinner.

In the last ashes wi Strauss, cook, KP and bell all in form England could get high totals regularly.

Something has gone wrong.

The good thing is this will ensure flower can ground them and hammer them a bit so they no longer believe the press. The press will also destroy them and it'll hurt but hopefully make them work hard to get better.

Alastair Cook's gone just before lunch. The partnership was developing well, but Cook is strangled down the legside of Starc, a good take from Haddin as well. England in some trouble.

Uh-oh - Cook out, bowled Starc, caught Haddin for 62. England 110-4.

Follow-on looking quite likely now.

The in-form Ian Bell joins Kevin Pietersen. England in desperate need of a partnership.

Cook out  

Rather out of the blue , that one...good catch by Haddin , nothing special to the ball but Cook just glanced it too fine.

Bit of pressure back on England now , just as Cook and KP were starting to look comfortable. Australia will be very glad to see the back of the England captain.

Simon Mann on TMS hinted that rain is unlikely to washout the day tomorrow although there are some possibilities of the morning session getting affected. England should bat on and bat on positively, the passive approach won't help. Other than Pietersen, the rest of the batting has been too passive so far.