3rd Ashes test Old Trafford

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD

Squad Alastair Cook (capt), Joe Root, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Bell, Jonny Bairstow, James Taylor, Matt Prior, Tim Bresnan, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Chris Tremlett, Monty Panesar

Kevin Pietersen facing up to Nathan Lyon. How would KP approach this?

alfie wrote:Hugely over rated ?  Abject batting ?

Bit OTT I think.   Lost Collingwood and then Strauss and have been having a few issues settling the replacements...and KP taking a few sickies hasn't helped.  But although the regular 450s have been in short supply lately there have not really been all that many collapses. And when they have folded up they have generally fought back in the second innings...

I agree that the bowlers have done most of the heavy lifting lately ; but the batsmen have - mostly - done enough to win or at least not lose.  Hopefully as Root settles in to the opening position the team will start to become more consistent with the bat.  Today would be a good time for some solid stuff.

My feeling is this - when was the last time you saw a team post a big first innings total against us and felt 'OK, no probs, our batsmen will do the business'. We haven't been in that situation a lot thanks to our bowlers, but when it does happen, our batsmen look a bit gutless to me, and in some instances, poor on technique. It's only partly about their talent, I have more issue with their grit, or lack of.

There was an appeal from Haddin in the last over against Bell of the bowling of Starc, the bowler wasn't too much interested and Clarke didn't want to go for the review. The hotspot showed nothing, but snicko gives some cause for doubt, might just be a very thin edge?

Is not too early to say England have lost this one.

The batting problems badly need addressing, it's a bit of a mess.

As soon as there is pressure they are making roads into minefields.

At lunch, England are 119-4. Certainly Australia's session. They haven't let England score all that match, and the 2 big wickets of Jonathan Trott and Alastair Cook.

msp83 wrote:Simon Mann on TMS hinted that rain is unlikely to washout the day tomorrow although there are some possibilities of the morning session getting affected. England should bat on and bat on positively, the passive approach won't help. Other than Pietersen, the rest of the batting has been too passive so far.

ive spent my life dreaming of them doing that  

trebellbobaggins wrote:Is not too early to say England have lost this one.

The batting problems badly need addressing,  it's a bit of a mess.

As soon as there is pressure they are making roads into minefields.

Agreed, our batsmen have two mind-sets. 1. Panic and try and hit everything and 2. Panic and try and hit nothing. I really do feel like our batsmen have been hyped beyond their ability. Mentally, as ever, we just seem a horribly brittle unit.

I will agree they have been a bit too passive , KP apart. Give some credit to Australia's bowlers and Clarke's field placings though...they haven't over attacked , and scoring has not been easy.
Don't agree the batsmen are as lacking in mental strength as you fellows are suggesting. Sure they are feeling the pressure ; but most teams chasing 500 plus on a pitch which is expected to deteriorate would be a bit jumpy. Let us see how they perform in the rest of this match before we go overboard , eh ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkURz6H0I0I

msp83 wrote:There was an appeal from Haddin in the last over against Bell of the bowling of Starc, the bowler wasn't too much interested and Clarke didn't want to go for the review. The hotspot showed nothing, but snicko gives some cause for doubt, might just be a very thin edge?

Msp - my instinctive reaction on seeing it first time was that Bell feathered it. Strange that none of the other Aussies seemed interested. Certainly accept there wasn't enough evidence to overturn the on field decision.

Haddin is certainly having a good match. Sixty odd undefeated runs and 3 catches so far. Excellent one to get Cook back in the hutch.

Aussie are just up for this.

They are a good team, they know it and the arrogant elements of the uk press have to accept it.

I hate our media. They talk you up so they can knock you down.

In reality this was always two closely matched teams and nothing we have seen suggests otherwise.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Aussie are just up for this.

They are a good team, they know it and the arrogant elements of the uk press have to accept it.

I hate our media.  They talk you up so they can knock you down.

In reality this was always two closely matched teams and nothing we have seen suggests otherwise.

Couldn't agree more re the media. I can just imagine The Sun for example ripping into them for this, from a position of about 5 days ago where they were telling their chavvy readership "we're 'avin it large over the Aussies". A heavy defeat might even knock the latest thrilling installment of the Luis Saurez saga of the back page, with Cook's face superimposed onto a chimpanzee.

I was getting annoyed watching that last leg show when they made a bg thing of Aussie being Poopie to the Aussie host.
He's going to enjoy handing it back next week and deserves to.

alfie wrote:I will agree they have been a bit too passive , KP apart.  Give some credit to Australia's bowlers and Clarke's field placings though...they haven't over attacked , and scoring has not been easy.
Don't agree the batsmen are as lacking in mental strength as you fellows are suggesting. Sure they are feeling the pressure ; but most teams chasing 500 plus on a pitch which is expected to deteriorate would be a bit jumpy.  Let us see how they perform in the rest of this match before we go overboard , eh ?  

Exactly.

As usual, there's a tendency from some to over react. If England are to be properly judged as a batting side, it needs to be done over a period of time and circumstances. Not one Friday evening and Saturday morning which admittedly has been disappointing.

Definitely not on two innings. I think we have to go right the way back to the UAE series and watch the many struggles since then.

The bowling has been strong but batting has had some long term problems.

It's not reactive to say flower has to sort it out, he has some good talent but a lot of form issues and a question of mental strength which always hangs a shadow over English teams.

Eh, a lot our fans and press (maybe other countries' too but I can't comment on that) in any sport (and anything, really) only seem to deal in absolutes. We are either amazing or terrible, the concept of a middle ground bizarrely seems to elude most of the population. Despite a middle ground almost always being the correct option

That said, first innings collapses and low scores seem to be a pattern

Pietersen stepping it up after lunch, taking Nathan Lyon and brought up his 50 with back to back hits over the fence. England 148-4.

KP will get out now and absolutely not get his hundred whilst escalating the run rate, taking pressure off Bell and onto the Aussie attack. Not a chance of the latter happening

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

I wondered where the knee-jerkers had got to.

England doing fine at the moment.

KP's positivity is rubbing off on Bell as well, he too is playing his shots, and for the first time in their innings, England are looking in control.

Clarke not bowling Steve Smith is become a real surprise at the moment. It was reported that he was carrying some fitness concerns prior to the match. Is that why he's not bowling at all? Can't really think of any other explanation. Not suggesting Smith is likely to run through the England lineup, but he's a quality parttime bowler and the seamers aren't making much of an impression on KP and Bell though they've bowled well.

KP and Bell have put together 66 so far, but their job is only starting, as the save follow-on target is still 152 runs away. The 2nd new ball should be available in 8 overs from now.

I ink the thing is msp, you can never look in control when you are that far behind.

I think you can look like you are coming back into it but you probably need to be 100 behind at least before you can say you're getting a handle on it.

You make a very good point that this is only a start, barely a start. And the new ball is danger time again.

Kevin Pietersen hit on the pads halfway down the wickets, Australia thought of a review but the wicketkeeper wasn't convinced and they didn't go up, but the replay suggested it was in fact hitting. KP was a long way down the pitch so understandable why they didn't review it.

More major wobbles for the engledods msp?

Hood .. lols

this is England.. we are the bomb at cricket.. draw written all over it.

Looks like the weather guys got it wrong again then.

we seem certain to get 4 of these 5 days at least.  Probably all 5 now I expect.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Eh, a lot our fans and press (maybe other countries' too but I can't comment on that) in any sport (and anything, really) only seem to deal in absolutes. We are either amazing or terrible, the concept of a middle ground bizarrely seems to elude most of the population. Despite a middle ground almost always being the correct option

Having lived here in Australia for many years , cj , I can assure you that violent mood swings in the media are quite common here too.
Not to say there aren't sensible writers around (surely you have some of them in British newspapers ? ) , but there are plenty prone to the odd kneejerk. And the triumph or disaster stories tend to steal the headlines.

Thought Smith must be struggling with his rumoured injury when he didn't bowl earlier , but here he is...
Few full tosses , and looks fairly innocuous ; but after his three-for late on the first day at Lords I am not surprised to see them treating him with care.

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

I wondered where the knee-jerkers had got to.

England doing fine at the moment.

We'll see shall we. Perhaps you were one of the balanced types who thought 5-0 was on the cards? I don't think it's knee-jerk to notice our bowlers have out-performed our batsmen for some time.

Well i think this match has proved one thing. Swann is a far better bowler than any of the aussie spinners.

90 overs already.  Blimey.

It's like watching a test match or something.  Not used to it.

Surprised Smith didn't bowl earlier.

I'd always try and get at KPs ego with a part time spinner for a few overs.

Hood83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

I wondered where the knee-jerkers had got to.

England doing fine at the moment.

We'll see shall we. Perhaps you were one of the balanced types who thought 5-0 was on the cards? I don't think it's knee-jerk to notice our bowlers have out-performed our batsmen for some time.

No I went for 3 nil. I'm sticking with it as well.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Looks like the weather guys got it wrong again then.

we seem certain to get 4 of these 5 days at least.  Probably all 5 now I expect.

If your weather people are changing their minds as often as suggested by the varying posts I have been reading on here , trebs , I would be reluctant to trust any forecast for the rest of the day , let alone the next two !
Only in New Zealand can you really be sure that when they say "no play on Tuesday" you can give up on the Test match and head off to pick mushrooms...

LivinginItaly wrote:Well i think this match has proved one thing.  Swann is a far better bowler than any of the aussie spinners.

 early days though.

He is of course a good one though.

I think people expected spin to do the damage but it's been seam for aussie so far.

 
Alfie.. ours are rarely very good but it's so changeable it makes I pretty impossible beyond the next couple of hours.

we had lovely sun yesterday then huge thunderstorms, then wind, then rain, then sun.

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

I wondered where the knee-jerkers had got to.

England doing fine at the moment.

We'll see shall we. Perhaps you were one of the balanced types who thought 5-0 was on the cards? I don't think it's knee-jerk to notice our bowlers have out-performed our batsmen for some time.

No I went for 3 nil. I'm sticking with it as well.

Fair enough. I like the confidence.

Hood83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:I've said it for a while but our batsmen our hugely overrated, made to look far better by a good attack that has given them confidence. As soon as they're up against it, I'm fearful of a classic English collapse. 2-1 after this and I sincerely hope people will stop saying ridiculous things like 'It's no fun watching us hammer them' Really? More fun than watching our abject batting surely?

I wondered where the knee-jerkers had got to.

England doing fine at the moment.

We'll see shall we. Perhaps you were one of the balanced types who thought 5-0 was on the cards? I don't think it's knee-jerk to notice our bowlers have out-performed our batsmen for some time.

No I went for 3 nil. I'm sticking with it as well.

Fair enough. I like the confidence.

Well there's no way Australia will be winning this Test. Draw written all over it at present.

Been somewhat of a trend in this match that theres a bit for the bowlers in the morning, then the batsman knuckle down

early days doody.

long long way to go.  Pass 450 and then it starts to look very much that way.

msp83 wrote:Kevin Pietersen hit on the pads halfway down the wickets, Australia thought of a review but the wicketkeeper wasn't convinced and they didn't go up, but the replay suggested it was in fact hitting. KP was a long way down the pitch so understandable why they didn't review it.

Msp - that raises interesting aspects. I would presume the umpire gave it not out as he (understandably) took the traditional view that he couldn't tell due to the batsman being some way down the pitch rather than he was convinced the ball was missing the stumps. As I say, that's understandable and fair enough.

However, how far down the pitch the batsman was doesn't really come into it if you use DRS as the third umpire will be shown where the ball would have ended up. I agree with Ian Botham on SKY that it would have been a gamble worth taking for Clarke to have referred it. The bowling side will very rarely get an lbw decision given in their favour by the onfield umpire when the batsman is down the track but it becomes a different matter when judged by DRS. Admittedly, the onfield umpire could have been shown to be correct with the consequence that a referral was used up. However, I think it would have been a chance worth taking - I'm not saying that because it was subsequently shown to be ''out'' but because of the potential scalp they could have gone after.

This ties in to some extent with points made over the last day or so by both Mike and myself that different criteria should be contemplated for judging lbw decisions on DRS, dependent upon whether the batsman is playing forward or back.

I'd still be backing England for victory here, but for the atrocious weather. Still, I won't complain at a draw.

Bell reaches his fifty and brings up the hundred partnership on the stroke of tea  

Good session for England. Much needed too...

Still a long way to go in this match.

Duty281 wrote:I'd still be backing England for victory here, but for the atrocious weather. Still, I won't complain at a draw.

 we've had three good days of weather.  overall this series has been brilliant weather wise, very lucky.

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'd still be backing England for victory here, but for the atrocious weather. Still, I won't complain at a draw.

 we've had three good days of weather.  overall this series has been brilliant weather wise, very lucky.

Very true that. As a matter of fact, I think the only delay we've had so far in the series was when her Majesty turned up at Lords.

guildfordbat wrote:

msp83 wrote:Kevin Pietersen hit on the pads halfway down the wickets, Australia thought of a review but the wicketkeeper wasn't convinced and they didn't go up, but the replay suggested it was in fact hitting. KP was a long way down the pitch so understandable why they didn't review it.

Msp - that raises interesting aspects. I would presume the umpire gave it not out as he (understandably) took the traditional view that he couldn't tell due to the batsman being some way down the pitch rather than he was convinced the ball was missing the stumps. As I say, that's understandable and fair enough.

However, how far down the pitch the batsman was doesn't really come into it if you use DRS as the third umpire will be shown where the ball would have ended up. I agree with Ian Botham on SKY that it would have been a gamble worth taking for Clarke to have referred it. The bowling side will very rarely get an lbw decision given in their favour by the onfield umpire when the batsman is down the track but it becomes a different matter when judged by DRS. Admittedly, the onfield umpire could have been shown to be correct with the consequence that a referral was used up. However, I think it would have been a chance worth taking - I'm not saying that because it was subsequently shown to be ''out'' but because of the potential scalp they could have gone after.

This ties in to some extent with points made over the last day or so by both Mike and myself that different criteria should be contemplated for judging lbw decisions on DRS, dependent upon whether the batsman is playing forward or back.

I get your point , guildford. But isn't that rather choosing your referral based on the batsman who is in and how desperate you are for a wicket ? Which is more or less what got them into trouble with reviews at Trent Bridge...

Have to say I didn't think it looked out originally - thought it marginal at best , though obviously Hawkeye says I'm wrong  

Not sure I totally trust Hawkeye when the ball still has that far to travel.  

211-4, wicketless afternoon session. 316 behind. Aus need a clatter if they're thinking about the follow on.

Vital session then right now.

Whatever happens now we're not going to have any silly press writing off Aussie anymore.

In fact they'll likely be favourites on their own turf as it's been small margins between the two sides.

I still think 2 series in 6 months cheapens the Ashes though.

Ian Bell has out scored Kevin Pietersen in this partnership as of now!.