3rd Ashes test Old Trafford

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD

Squad Alastair Cook (capt), Joe Root, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Bell, Jonny Bairstow, James Taylor, Matt Prior, Tim Bresnan, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Chris Tremlett, Monty Panesar

alfie wrote:

I get your point , guildford.  But isn't that rather choosing your referral based on the batsman who is in and how desperate you are for a wicket ?  Which is more or less what got them into trouble with reviews at Trent Bridge...

Have to say I didn't think it looked out originally - thought it marginal at best , though obviously Hawkeye says I'm wrong  

Not sure I totally trust Hawkeye when the ball still has that far to travel.  

I get your point too, Alfie. Clarke referring this was clearly going to be a risk but one I felt worth taking in view of (a) the potential scalp and (b) Australia being well on top. Australia are unlikely to have too many chances to get Pietersen out before he saves the follow on which very much influences my reasoning on this one. Very different circumstances from Trent Bridge. The best time to place a bet is not when you're desperate for cash but when you can afford to lose your stake and a win is a lovely bonus.

Agree with you about not trusting Hawkeye when the ball still has so far to travel. Hence, my banging on about there should be different DRS criteria depending upon whether the batsman is back on his stumps or 5 yeards down the track!

msp83 wrote:Ian Bell has out scored Kevin Pietersen in this partnership as of now!.

Not a massive surprise, Bells in the form of his life, KPs struggled a bit recently after a long break.

Duty281 wrote:I'd still be backing England for victory here, but for the atrocious weather. Still, I won't complain at a draw.

Bell gone. Good luck with that.

oh for gods sake.
 
just as the people on the bbc start talking about the form of his life.
 
stop talking people up and cursing them you stupid bbc people.
 
well that's the game then. well short of the follow up.  They've fought a bit but it's almost more gutting looking like you might actually battle through and then crashing than just getting skittled early.
 
2-1 then.  No hope of your 3-0 doody.
 
aussie made this one look easy.  Scoreboard pressure hurts players, especially when they are a nervous team struggling with the bat.
 
I think people will be more honest in their assessment of the two teams now.  Well matched and either can win the series.  all depends on the remaining tosses.  aussie win 2 they win the ashes, Eng grab one and they can hold on.

Harris is the difference.  Best bowler in the last two matches and has swung the Ashes back for Aussie now.
 
Pick him at home and they will retain them there too.

And without question Clarke is the best batsman out of either side by some margin. Gives them such an edge when he fires.  Class of his own. So best seamer, best batsmen in this macth.. easy to see why they've got this one in the bag.

trebellbobaggins wrote:oh for gods sake.
 
just as the people on the bbc start talking about the form of his life.
 
stop talking people up and cursing them you stupid bbc people.
 
well that's the game then. well short of the follow up.  They've fought a bit but it's almost more gutting looking like you might actually battle through and then crashing than just getting skittled early.
 
2-1 then.  No hope of your 3-0 doody.
 
aussie made this one look easy.  Scoreboard pressure hurts players, especially when they are a nervous team struggling with the bat.
 
I think people will be more honest in their assessment of the two teams now.  Well matched and either can win the series.  all depends on the remaining tosses.  aussie win 2 they win the ashes, Eng grab one and they can hold on.

Trebbs     

deffo back

well no just being honest Roakes.
 
England are not as good as some think and we've known since the UAE they can't bat for Poopie when the pressure is on.
 
They can be a good side but they're in Aussies class, not above it and were always going to lose some to them.  Not being silly, just knew this was coming.
 
I still think eng can retain as long as the coin toss goes their way but any more chasing of big totals will expose their batting worries every time.

Even if Australia does bowl England for less than 328, is imposing the follow on a good idea?

With the weather around, and the series at 2-0, I think Aus would have to roll the dice and put us back in.

definitely.  pressure will bring the win.

the captain isn't in form with the bat so can't get them out of this one.  he's been well beaten by Clarke this time.

i would allways impose and i think aus are the type that would if there were confident in there play. however they surely arnt that confident in there play so I really dont know.. I know that england wouldnt in the reverse situation

trebellbobaggins wrote:well no just being honest Roakes.
 
England are not as good as some think and we've known since the UAE they can't bat for Poopie when the pressure is on.
 
They can be a good side but they're in Aussies class, not above it and were always going to lose some to them.  Not being silly, just knew this was coming.
 
I still think eng can retain as long as the coin toss goes their way but any more chasing of big totals will expose their batting worries every time.

Spot on, Duty and others have completely overrated our batsmen. They do not have the discipline or the toughness in these situations.

a curse of English sport.  The talent can be there but not the mental toughness.
 
when we get a Wilkinson or Wiggins type who's tough as hell it stands out because they're an exception.

and Bairstow looks totally outclassed out there sadly.  these boys can't cope with the pressure, pressure is all it is.

I cant wait to laff at your comments at the end of play hood!

Im not concerned, i recon it will end as a draw. Good to see KP batting superbly well.

I cant believe a country that used to rely on Nick Knight and Graeme Hick is claiming this bunch to be "poopie"

Hood83 wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:well no just being honest Roakes.
 
England are not as good as some think and we've known since the UAE they can't bat for Poopie when the pressure is on.
 
They can be a good side but they're in Aussies class, not above it and were always going to lose some to them.  Not being silly, just knew this was coming.
 
I still think eng can retain as long as the coin toss goes their way but any more chasing of big totals will expose their batting worries every time.

Spot on, Duty and others have completely overrated our batsmen. They do not have the discipline or the toughness in these situations.

   

Were you out for the last 3 Tests of the Indian series? Or maybe during the second innings of the first test in this series? Get a grip.

kingraf wrote:I cant believe a country that used to rely on Nick Knight and Graeme Hick is claiming this bunch to be "poopie"

There's no middle ground it seems with most England fans. We're either the best in the world, or absolute Poopie.

but the pressure wasn't coming from the bowlers.

Put Pakistan, SA, these guys or even NZ's bowlers against us and we look like a team who need a lot of work in the batting dept.

Now I , like roakey , suspect this is at least partly the Old Trebell talking.  

However : I have never subscribed to the view that this series was over before it started. I don't think this is a very good Australian team - the batting is very ordinary , and highly dependent on Clarke. But they will always fight very hard for the Ashes , and England are still rejigging their batting order a bit.
I expected an England win - still do , but I also thought Australia might well win a Test at least.
Not that they have won this one yet ! Still fifteen wickets to take ...

Incidentally I don't think the follow on is the be all and end all here. Even if England avoid it , they could still be in danger on the last day , weather permitting ; while if the pitch stays reasonably true following on wouldn't automatically be a death sentence...bowlers might be a bit weary second time around...

Not even thinking about the return series in Australia yet .

Duty281 wrote:

kingraf wrote:I cant believe a country that used to rely on Nick Knight and Graeme Hick is claiming this bunch to be "poopie"

There's no middle ground it seems with most England fans. We're either the best in the world, or absolute Poopie.

 That's the annoying thing.  They can bat and they can bat well but they seem to lose their heads.

Hundred for KP  

Brilliant.

Another of those and his team could still be in this.  Big congrats playing like that under such pressure.
 
Alfie.. yes you were one of the few being very positive about Aussie and their talent because you see it all the time.

Hundred for KP.   

Fantastic innings, I suppose his critics and detractors will ignore this innings? England sailing into calm waters.

Very well played 100 for KP. Need him to go on a bit longer and get us close to Aus

Alfie makes a good point about the follow on.  It can't be a teams focus as you need a hell of a lot more to be in this one.  Eng will know that of course.

target 400 min- and draw is on. bat a session tommorow and its wrapped up

Gary Ballance made another ton in the County Championship yesterday for Yorkshire. That'll probably equate to more pressure on Bairstow; he needs a good innings here for his country.

I wouldn't say I have been very positive about Australian talent , trebs ; because I actually think it is in short supply right now. Hence why there are some rather ordinary batsmen in particular getting a lot of games...
But I do have a healthy respect for the fighting spirit that most Australian teams bring to an Ashes series...these matches mean a lot to people here , and I didn't expect them to cave in without a fight.
As I say , I am still expecting an England series win. But I never expected 5-0. Unless something happened to Clarke.

69 to avoid the follow on. Would be a pretty decent collapse from here. Something in the pitch to keep Swann interested if England can get near Australis total.

Duty281 wrote:Gary Ballance made another ton in the County Championship yesterday for Yorkshire. That'll probably equate to more pressure on Bairstow; he needs a good innings here for his country.

Bairstow always seems to be playing under pressure...team , or for his spot. Which is fair enough - an England Cap shouldn't come easily !
But I do like the way he plays , flaws in his game notwithstanding . His efforts against SA last year won me...

I hope he succeeds here.

More immediate pressure is Taylors 100 against Aus I suspect.

bairstow has done nothing wrong imo. He is slowing getting better and better- His place is earnt and he is learning a lot- I think he is one of those players that will just creep up on us and before we know it we wouldnt dream of dropping him..

Duty281 wrote:

kingraf wrote:I cant believe a country that used to rely on Nick Knight and Graeme Hick is claiming this bunch to be "poopie"

There's no middle ground it seems with most England fans. We're either the best in the world, or absolute Poopie.

Copycat

Its bell keeping taylor out!

no one would have expected this form..

Bairstow is doing enough to keep his place, root has done enough.

cook, kp,prior and trott are undroppable..

People whinge about our batting- but the fact is they shouldnt. Its good

Bairstow's gone, and England will teeter once more.

51 runs needed.

Players have had far less chances than Bairstow has wasted.

He has been getting 20-70's the last 7 innings or something- i think that is ok for a new lad in..

But then I suppose we may be passed the point of that being good enough. Especially when we have taylor knocking.

It would have been simple if bell had struggled again.

But all the same I very happy with and for bell.

Its a good position to be in really. A decent problem

There goes the test.

Clarke has rotated his bowlers well. He has an advantage over England in that Watson can bowl serious overs , which reduces the pressure on his strike bowlers. And Watson has bowled well here.
Of course he only has Lyon , very much a poor man's Swann...

Plus of course it is easier to keep pressure on the batsmen when you have already made 527  

Whatever , it has meant England have never been able to play freely (except for a bit of the Bell/Pietersen stand ). So they are still playing catch up...

Contrary to some comments on this thread , England batsmen have actually shown a fair bit of grit in this situation today. It may not be enough to save them...but I don't think they deserve to be damned for their efforts.

KP gone so it is getting very fraught now...

Fine innings  ...but he will be unhappy at getting out now !

Australia will be confident ...

A fine innings from Kevin Pietersen comes to an end. LBW to Starc, KP reviewed it, but the pitching on line umpire's call and hitting so he has to go.
But a fine effort from KP.

Starc looking like he is to put in a Man of the match performance. Something I desperately dont want as I put £5 on Michael Clarke at 11/1

There goes KP...

48 runs to avoid the follow on.

Duty281 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:well no just being honest Roakes.
 
England are not as good as some think and we've known since the UAE they can't bat for Poopie when the pressure is on.
 
They can be a good side but they're in Aussies class, not above it and were always going to lose some to them.  Not being silly, just knew this was coming.
 
I still think eng can retain as long as the coin toss goes their way but any more chasing of big totals will expose their batting worries every time.

Spot on, Duty and others have completely overrated our batsmen. They do not have the discipline or the toughness in these situations.

   

Were you out for the last 3 Tests of the Indian series? Or maybe during the second innings of the first test in this series? Get a grip.

3-0 eh Duty, England to have won with good weather?...get a grip indeed. Unfortunately that sort of horrendous arrogance is far too prevalent.

Broad is fighting with the bat though -360 still possible.

Duty281 wrote:Bairstow's gone, and England will teeter once more.

Oh riiiight, now we've taken the rose-tinted glasses off eh? 2-1 thanks to guess what - some very average batting on a road but under pressure.

it will be 2-0 Hoody

Hoggy_Bear wrote:There goes the test.

Steady on Hoggy ! Way to go yet , even if the Great British Weather doesn't come to the party.

Certainly this session has gone well for Australia , but their bowlers have been made to work hard : and there are still thirteen wickets to take...

Concerned , but not giving up yet .

alfie wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:There goes the test.

Steady on Hoggy !   Way to go yet , even if the Great British Weather doesn't come to the party.

Certainly this session has gone well for Australia , but their bowlers have been made to work hard : and there are still thirteen wickets to take...

Concerned , but not giving up yet .

Yeah, you're right. Ton from Prior (he owes the team some runs), 50s from Broad and Swann.

kingraf wrote:Starc looking like he is to put in a Man of the match performance. Something I desperately dont want as I put £5 on Michael Clarke at 11/1

Chill , kingraf  

Starc will need a lot of wickets along with his frisky late innings sixty odd to trump Clarkes's innings ! Reckon your money is safe...