How do you compare?

Thought I’d post something I’ve been thinking about recently, in an attempt to distract us from racism and bad blood.

How do you think you compare to players of a similar handicap to you?

This is borne out of my own insecurity since my handicap has improved. I’ve found that I now compare myself to other players of my handicap and the results generally aren’t favourable i.e. they tend to be better ball-strikers, get more distance, can shape it both ways. Anyone have similar thoughts?

I realise that all that matters is the number of shots you take, there are no pictures on a scorecard etc. but thought I’d gauge opinion.

I've just come down a shot or 2 but all my mates are off much lower say 3 to 6 hcap. Just got to 8.6 so catching them up. Feel I strike the ball ok and am much longer (6ft 4 helps) but it's taken me years to think my way round a course. They have played since 5 y/o whereas I didin't start till mid 20's so I think that was a great advantage.

i think to an untrained eye i might look like an impressive 5. long hitter, good ball striking, move it both ways, get alot of spin with my wedges etc. but i make way more mental errors, have more 3 putts and my distance control isn't great either when compared to other 5s.
to a high handicapper i probably seem more "impressive" but ultimately i score worse than some "efficient" 5 handicappers.

I probably have a better swing than other people of the same handicap but a short game of someone playing off about 12 or more.

I have not had the chance to spend time on my short game for quite a few years.

I can split my game up quite simply.
Off the tee and around the green I am better than most of my peers, hitting greens and putting I am somewhat behind

My handicap has just gone up to 9 (8.5) and it's because my long game is utter ..... and seems to be getting worse. I have the long game of a 24 handicapper & the short game of a scratch golfer.

Virtually every golfer I see with a handicap similar to mine drives better, hits fairway woods better, long irons better and mid-irons better. In fact most golfers with handicaps up to about 15 seem to hit the longer clubs consistently further and better.

However my short game is very good & I putt well so it could be said that my score is flattered by this aspect of the game.

Dunno. I'm off 3 but I don't think my short game is as good as it should be for this level. Neither's my driving (generally, although it's made a superb comeback last couple of weeks) but my irons, from top to bottom, are generally a strong suit and (I think!) better than others I know of a similar handicap.

hend085 wrote:i think to an untrained eye i might look like an impressive 5. long hitter, good ball striking, move it both ways, get alot of spin with my wedges etc. but i make way more mental errors, have more 3 putts and my distance control isn't great either when compared to other 5s.
to a high handicapper i probably seem more "impressive" but ultimately i score worse than some "efficient" 5 handicappers.

Replace 5 with 6-7 and that's almost exactly how I'd describe myself....with perhaps one caveat. I do play a few links courses/Opens so when it gets windy inland and/or hardpan baked like it has been recently then I start to compare better to my club peers. Once the wind goes beyond a 3 club wind though I'm as mince as the rest.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:My handicap has just gone up to 9 (8.5) and it's because my long game is utter ..... and seems to be getting worse. I have the long game of a 24 handicapper & the short game of a scratch golfer.

Virtually every golfer I see with a handicap similar to mine drives better, hits fairway woods better, long irons better  and mid-irons better. In fact most golfers with handicaps up to about 15 seem to hit the longer clubs consistently further and better.

However my short game is very good & I putt well so it could be said that my score is flattered by this aspect of the game.

Eye - does it bother you that this is the case? Are you happy to cash in on your short game or are you working to improve the long game?

Always thought my handicap (never better than low teens) was about right when I played a lot - probably about the same as others for most of the game, slightly better course management with very few high numbers and definitely a better chipping and pitching game.
Never an aggressive putter and those who I thought I was comparable to, but lower handicaps, always holed a higher number of mid/long putts.

I play off cough cough 20 cough, so realistically a hacker. I play with guys of similar standard though, when we can be good, then not so good. I have played with guys much better then me, and they seem surprised by my handicap, until at some point i blow up for 2/3 holes before it comes back together. Need to get rid of the disaster holes i suppose. Played the other week and hit 15bogeys, 1 par 1 birdie and 1 double. Which was quite good ( for a player at my level)

shclaff wrote:

Eyetoldyouso wrote:My handicap has just gone up to 9 (8.5) and it's because my long game is utter ..... and seems to be getting worse. I have the long game of a 24 handicapper & the short game of a scratch golfer.

Virtually every golfer I see with a handicap similar to mine drives better, hits fairway woods better, long irons better  and mid-irons better. In fact most golfers with handicaps up to about 15 seem to hit the longer clubs consistently further and better.

However my short game is very good & I putt well so it could be said that my score is flattered by this aspect of the game.

Eye - does it bother you that this is the case? Are you happy to cash in on your short game or are you working to improve the long game?

It bothers me no end, I have any amount of lessons and all seems well after the lessons. What really annoys me is that 3 years ago my driver was my go-to club. Never hit it far (220-230 yards) but always arrow straight. Funnily enough I hardly ever practise my short game and putting.

Good topic Shclaff

I'm off 17 so not as good as most of you guys. As my username suggests, my putting was once worse than pathetic and i spent huge amounts of time working on it to the point where for the last year or so i have been putting really quite nicely, better than most at my level i think. My chipping of late however has been worse than anyone at any level!
I'm shorter than most off the tee which is a weakness but i do hit 80% of fairways which certainly is better than most 17 handicappers i've played with. I hit my irons nicely but do leave longer clubs into greens than most and so don't hit nearly enough greens (25%) and this is where i need to improve.

Where i am miles worse than my peers is in the head. The guy i play most golf with is not a member anywhere and so we keep records of rounds on a spreadsheet. We have 120 recorded rounds and i average 14 over. At my home club i average 12 over. On more than a few occasions i have played 9 holes in level par. But when it comes to a medal i'm pants every time. In fact i've never been cut. Started at 16.0 and have gone up 0.1 in every qualifying comp i've ever played. Cracking

I barely play these days and when I do its with a mate who is way better. But we can play a shot a hole or anything to keep it interesting.
Funny thing is having no expectations whatsoever means Im way more relaxed and enjoy every..well nearly..minute on the course and that usually means I play a bit better than Id expect to.

Interesting that a few of you consider yourselves better technically than your peers but not so good mentally. I'm probably the opposite currently. My golf is just steady rather than spectacular but I rarely get upset/flustered during a round. Some of my playing partners will have a good score going and then one missed short putt or dodgy swing and the wheels fall off.

Still think I'd rather be a better ball striker though!

That's just timing Schlaff...

I consider myself mentally to be way better than my immediate peers now (I'm 5 and the lads I regularly play with are 4, 6 and 9). I enjoy it, if I drop a few shots going out I know I can be good enough to recover and just crack on. If I drop more, hey ho!
They seem to capitulate mentally more often than I do. That said, the 4 often seems to be playing like an idiot but when you ask him on (say) 17 he's often only +1/+2 and scoring well so his head must be better than the impression I get!

I never consider myself as a real 5 as our course is easy, so when I see 5 handicappers from a "harder" course I never seem anywhere near as good. But of course what I can't see is what others think when they see me (but then I don't really care!).

Biggest "problem" is I don't seem to make many birdies compared to them. Mates seem to go on streaks of 4 or 5 birdies in a 9 but I rarely get more than 3 a lap. That said, my putting is good and I mostly make par even if an up and down is required so maybe my golf is a tad dull (a good problem to have!). It does mean that a couple of doubles can ruin a score, but fortunately I don't really care that much as long as I laugh!

I can easily be the worst 5 handicapper in the world or I can look decent value for it. Just don't know which one is going to turn up...

I'm off 12, but can easily go on a run of 6 or 7 holes where I'm 1 or 2 under gross, which makes me tough to beat in matchplay - a form of the game I'm playing a lot at the moment and enjoying. I always seem to have 3 or 4 really bad holes which is what is keeping me stuck on 12.

I really don't know. I think it's something like this - on my day I'm a better ball striker, better putter, better chipper. Mentally I'm probably not as good as I think I am, which is average. But I'm very rarely, if ever, a better ball striker, chipper and putter all on the same day. Inconsistency is probably my biggest weakness. I have the opposite situation to Roller - our course plays pretty tough so compared to 9 handicaps from other courses I can definitely hold my own.

Off 5 I know many of my peers are better golfers. More consistent, more experience (I started late!), certainly better on the greens. On my day I can drive, hit irons and work my short game as well as many with similar handicap - but I never feel as competent as I did with other sports. Every game with a card and pencil is full on, eyes bulging, ears back, concentrating hard - but I absolutely love it!
Like nothing better than playing with people who really can "golf their ball" In a practice round for the English Seniors this year I played with 2 chaps who have won it 6 times between them. Learnt so much in one afternoon!

Eyetoldyouso wrote:My handicap has just gone up to 9 (8.5) and it's because my long game is utter ..... and seems to be getting worse. I have the long game of a 24 handicapper & the short game of a scratch golfer.

Virtually every golfer I see with a handicap similar to mine drives better, hits fairway woods better, long irons better  and mid-irons better. In fact most golfers with handicaps up to about 15 seem to hit the longer clubs consistently further and better.

However my short game is very good & I putt well so it could be said that my score is flattered by this aspect of the game.

Wow this sounds familiar. Up and til about 6 years ago my driving was superb. I could effortlessy launch the ball miles down the fairway with a gentle draw. Par 5's became reachable in two, and on most courses there was always a short par 4 that was in range off the tee. But I lost the magic. Now I'm rarely able to find the middle of the club face even with the large headed driver. When I get within 170 yards I'm fine, so I have the long game of a 28 handicapper, the mid/short irons of a 5 handicapper and the short game of a scratch golfer. Ocasionally my long game makes an appearance and on those days golf is a wonderful sport... if it coincides with a comp I will win it.

If I could walk 250 yards up the hole and place my ball on the fairway and play my second shot from there I would be close to a scratch golfer. Of course driving is a very important part of the game so that is a big "if"! The weird thing is that I hardly practice my short game, all my efforts go on practicing full swing shots with irons / woods and I've had lessons with 3 different pros in the last 5 years in an attempt to find the cure.

On that basis I consider myself better than other players of my handicap, because most of the shots in golf are taken up putting, chipping, wedges etc and I play these well. I am also a member at a difficult course... I think this has a massive impact on handicap. I moved from an easy public course to a tough championship course and there were guys who were off 8 or 9 on my old course who would be 15 or 16 on my current course.

[quote="raycastleunited"]

Eyetoldyouso wrote: I think this has a massive impact on handicap. I moved from an easy public course to a tough championship course and there were guys who were off 8 or 9 on my old course who would be 15 or 16 on my current course.

But the CSS is supposed to even all this out.

George1507 wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:

Eyetoldyouso wrote: I think this has a massive impact on handicap. I moved from an easy public course to a tough championship course and there were guys who were off 8 or 9 on my old course who would be 15 or 16 on my current course.

But the CSS is supposed to even all this out.

Yes but do you really think it does?

CSS will work if you have an Open competition with golfers from a range of home courses, but if its an internal competition and for most golfers its pretty much the only place they ever play competitive golf, the CSS will only reflect the difficulty of the course on that day (eg due to weather conditions) compared to how the course normally plays. It won't take into account how easy or hard the course is compared to other courses.

Separately, I also think SSS is a poor indicator of difficulty. A course that plays 1 over par for a scratch golfer may play 4 or 5 shots harder for an 18 handicapper. I think the slope system used in other countries tries to address this but I have never seen it in action.

The CSS is a waste of time. At our place par is 69 and every comp the CSS goes to 68. I have never ever ever seen the CSS go up in any comp in the two clubs I've been a member at, not even in the toughest conditions when no one shoots net par (which I've seen a few times)

The Slope rating of a course is a measure of the difficulty of the course based on hazards, carries, elevation changes, and a few other things which I can't think of at this time.  There is a standard rating of 110 (maybe 113) and the higher the rating the harder the course, the lower the rating the easier the course.   There are handicap tables which then calculate the adjustment to a player's handicap.  At my course the daily tees are rated 132 and the back tees are rated 137.  With my new handicap of 7.2 (didn't stay 6.something for very long) my handicap is 8 off of the daily tees and 9 off of the back tees.  When I was 6.9 my playing handicap was 8 off of both of sets of tees.

This thread covered a lot of SSS/CSS versus Slope Rating: https://www.606v2.com/t38522-rating-vs-standard-scratch

MPB not sure if you are aware but CSS is calculated by a relatively simple chart based on a percentage of each Category who are within +2 of the SSS (it makes no difference if they shoot better than they should).

It is a function of the SSS not par but is massively and I mean massively influenced by the Category one players. So if in your particular competitions you have only one Cat One player and he's within +2 of the SSS then the chances of the CSS going above the SSS are very slim.

Thanks Hibbz
I've no knowledge of the intricacies of how it works but what i had figured is if it can go down it presumably sometimes should go up, which it doesn't, ever.
I've seen comps where the best score was 33 stableford points and the CSS still goes down to 68. Hmm

Our CSS is regularly -2 (and a few -3 recently) but has been up at +1 on (rare) occasion so definitely can go up too.

Oh - and it works by witchcraft (every time I'm a point 1 up whilst net under par for example)

Witchcraft indeed!

MustPuttBetter wrote:The CSS is a waste of time. At our place par is 69 and every comp the CSS goes to 68. I have never ever ever seen the CSS go up in any comp in the two clubs I've been a member at, not even in the toughest conditions when no one shoots net par (which I've seen a few times)

Just curious - what length is your course for a par of 69?

MustPuttBetter wrote:Thanks Hibbz
I've no knowledge of the intricacies of how it works but what i had figured is if it can go down it presumably sometimes should go up, which it doesn't, ever.
I've seen comps where the best score was 33 stableford points and the CSS still goes down to 68. Hmm

Yeah that does seem extreme but can I assume that the SSS is at least 1 under par if not 2? Therefore the CSS might not actually go "down" to 68 (assuming a par of 69) it might just stay at 68 or even "go up" to 68?

It does take a quite extreme set of results for CSS to be SSS+1 and an even more incredible set of results for CSS+2. Happens more often in Open comps due to the high number of Cat One competitors.

I'm pretty sure most clubs CSS's are calculated by a computer now but if yours isn't I guess it's possible your handicap secretary isn't reading the chart correctly.

Not sure how much time you have or how interested (stats fascinate me) but the links below give some brief info.

http://www.congu.com/faqs/css.pdf

http://www.handicapmaster.org/handicaps/Unified_Handicapping_System_Page2.php

Roller_Coaster wrote:Our CSS is regularly -2 (and a few -3 recently) but has been up at +1 on (rare) occasion so definitely can go up too.

Oh - and it works by witchcraft (every time I'm a point 1 up whilst net under par for example)

Roller when you say -2/-3 do you mean to par or to the SSS? As I mentioned to MPB if it's to par then it's likely that it just reflects the SSS being under par, if you mean SSS-2/-3 then it really is quite unusual.

Hibbz you're a little out of date when you say it's the percentage of players within 2 shots of SSS .. it's actually percentage of players within (or better than) their buffer zone .. so only SSS+1 for cat1 up to SSS+3 for cat3 .. .cat 4 (and higher if a ladies' comp) are discarded for calculation purposes

Makes for some interesting CSS calculations at my club where we have a C medal (18 h/c and above) ... only the 18-20s count for CSS purposes ... so it could be won by next 63 or 64 with loads a shot or two off the lead, but if the handful of cat 3 players have a bad day then CSS could actually go up!

Actually Davie, I did think that and even got as far as typing it but read the links I sent MPB and they said SSS+2 so decided I must be wrong.

Glad you've confirmed what I originally thought.

Well they've either changed it back or the documents are out of date. That's my understanding though

5,890 yards Bob

MustPuttBetter wrote:The CSS is a waste of time. At our place par is 69 and every comp the CSS goes to 68. I have never ever ever seen the CSS go up in any comp in the two clubs I've been a member at, not even in the toughest conditions when no one shoots net par (which I've seen a few times)

MPB I can assure you that CSS can go up! My course is par 71 and the CSS is usually 72 (the same as SSS) but in the 2 and a bit years I have been a member I have seen it as high as 75.

Maybe you should stop playing at a pitch and putt and try a proper golf course?  

CSS can't be more than +2 above SSS now.

George - CSS I think it's +3?

Unless this has changed very recently CSS can range from SSS-1 to SSS+3. It can also be SSS+3RO (reductions only) in extreme circumstances whereby no 0.1 increases are applied to results of players even those who have NR'd.
As far as handicap competitions go the Par rating is irrelevant. Substitute the SSS rating and you have the effective par for the circuit. SSS rating is a complex process whereby all of the factors listed by grumps for the US system are considered. The failing in my opinion (and I don't know whether this applies to the US system - probably not) is that the SSS rating only considers these factors against the perceived ability of a scratch golfer. Therefore, there can be discrepancies, particularly between higher handicaps from different clubs.

Just to add, my home course par=SSS=72, whereas my away course par=71,SSS=69.

One way to look at this is that my handicap for each course is 6 and 4 respectfully.

Or treat the par as 69 on the latter, I.e. 75 for level hcp.

Or, just hit the ball, add it up, accept the system has some flaws but is broadly the same for everyone, and the scores and handicaps take care of themselves.

Ray, to be fair if you're at 75 and we're at 68 I'd probably be a single figure handicapper at your place with 7 extra shots to play with

SSS at my course is 73, one more than the par. CSS is normally also 73, but I've known it go down to 72 and up to 75. If I play somewhere with a SSS of 69 I've got to see that as 4 free shots.

Yep SSS at my course (6767 yards) is 73, one more than par as well. CSS is rarely below 73, sometimes 74 and occasionally 75

Hibbz wrote:

Roller_Coaster wrote:Our CSS is regularly -2 (and a few -3 recently) but has been up at +1 on (rare) occasion so definitely can go up too.

Oh - and it works by witchcraft (every time I'm a point 1 up whilst net under par for example)

Roller when you say -2/-3 do you mean to par or to the SSS? As I mentioned to MPB if it's to par then it's likely that it just reflects the SSS being under par, if you mean SSS-2/-3 then it really is quite unusual.

My references are to par rather than SSS (but if you carry on being logical and making sense I'll have to stop being sorry for myself!!!).

SSS was changed (down) to -2 (from -1 vs par) about 3 years ago so I shouldn't technically complain I know as CSS is generally in line. Still makes it hard to hold or get cut though!

When CSS has been +1 (to par and +3 to SSS) it is more odd, but doesn't get me any sympathy