south wales you lucky lucky b*stards (a little rant about regional borders and being a gog)

Rugby and Wales are two words very much associated with one another, and despite the many problems between the regions and the WRU I just thought I would make aware how lucky you southern lot are in comparison to your poor northern brethren, us gogs. While you southerners often complain about the regional layout and the borders in which the regions are situated, you are all fortunate enough to have a region in which you can watch high quality rugby week in week out fairly easily. for us North Walians it is not easy, while RGC is still in its infant years in terms of potentially becoming a region, we have no true region to support and get behind currently, and I believe this is having a detrimental effect on north wales rugby. Rugby for a Welshman is not just a passion but a religion, but like any religion a child needs to baptised into this culture, yet without the establishment of RGC as a true region then this could see generation after generation of talented north walian players becoming EQ and turning out for English clubs or even moving to other sports such as football or even league.

thankfully for me (results depending) I shall soon be living in one of two rugby mad cities, in either Cardiff or Leicester, which shall help fuel my passion for rugby, but many of us gogs are not so lucky, if you could donate just £50 a month for a poor gog to see just 1 pro rugby match a month then he shall be forever in your debt. the number is 01234 56789

so just a little rant about being a gog and the lack of pro rugby up here, and I pose a  few questions to you,
how long do you think it will be until RGC COULD become a 5th region?
could wales support another region?
And finally, what effect could this have on the national side?

Welshy - you have my sympathy. I hope you settle somewhere your passion can be satisfied. Spare a thought for those worse off though. If you are feeling disenfranchised as a gog - imagine what it must be like to hail from Pontypridd ?? It must be all of 12 miles to Cardiff.  

I think you'll find that the majority of Welsh posters on this board are very keen on RGC developing in to a full region, but also retaining the 4 other regions. Having a fully professional region in the North will aid the national team hugely in my opinion. Offering the players up there the chance to come through a high quality system with a proper development pathway has the potential to strengthen the Welsh setup no end. I think the average age of RGC was ~19/20 last season. With a years experience in a very physical 1 East, I think they'll do well in the championship. But i still think that you're at least 3 years away from the Prem and then maybe another 3/4 on top of that from full regional status in the Rabo. It's all looking good though.

There is the small matter of which league a fifth professional region would play in.

If there was a fifth region it could end up a bit like the situation the SARU are in. The governing body (the SARU, the WRU) want to set up an extra team for political reasons that covers a hitherto unrepresented part of the country but the competition (the Pro12, Super Rugby) won't let them enter an extra team leading to much foot-stomping and threats of a possible withdrawl from that tournament by the (Welsh or South African) teams.

For me, 12 should be the cap in terms of number of sides in Celtic Rugbys competition in its current format. If we go higher than 12 we need a different format, possibly conference based. The arrival of the Italian sides into Celtic Rugby might well mean Wales chance to create a fifth region has been blown. They need the Scots, Italians and Irish to agree to expanding the competition and their entry into English competitions is likely to see them slip into the second tier initially and forfeit their automatic Heineken Cup places- although god only knows what kind of compromise we're going to end up with there.

welshy824 (new) wrote:
how long do you think it will be until RGC COULD become a 5th region?
could wales support another region?
And finally, what effect could this have on the national side?

RGC could become a region tomorrow if the funding was available to make them professional, however most of their squad are teenagers so it will be a few years before those lads are old enough to hold their own at a higher level. They could BUY a squad though.

No Wales cannot support another region at the moment, we barely have the money for 4 regions.

At lower levels RGC is already having an effect, several players have already been selected for the U18 and U21 teams, however anyone showing exceptional promise in the RGC academy would be snapped up by Sale, Rugby League or the Scarlets.

Notch wrote:For me, 12 should be the cap in terms of number of sides in Celtic Rugbys competition in its current format. If we go higher than 12 we need a different format, possibly conference based. The arrival of the Italian sides into Celtic Rugby might well mean Wales chance to create a fifth region has been blown. They need the Scots, Italians and Irish to agree to expanding the competition and their entry into English competitions is likely to see them slip into the second tier initially and forfeit their automatic Heineken Cup places- although god only knows what kind of compromise we're going to end up with there.

Confused to say the least, Notch.
Even more so by entwining the English in the mix.

I have proposed before a feasible British league sitting in between the existing Jeff and the Championship with (say) six teams from each of the England and six from the rest of the GB nations. The Jeff, of course, remaining exclusively English.

How your concept of a Rabo Conference system would be formed and managed is anyone's guess.

Welcome to 606v2, Welshy. My advice would be to do what my dad did: he moved from Gogland to Newport.

It is ridiculous that North Wales has been overlooked / ignored for so long. Imagine if New Zealand ignored the North Island, or South Africa ignored everything north of the Vaal. We're not a big / populous nation and we can't afford to have a fair percentage of potential rugby talent slipping through the net.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:How your concept of a Rabo Conference system would be formed and managed is anyone's guess.

Sure the competition started as a conference system with the four Irish provinces, 3 Scottish regions and 9 Welsh Premiership teams just over 10, 11 years ago. This is what it looked like in 2002-3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002–03_Celtic_League#Teams

It was changed from a conference system to a league because the Welsh went regional and scrapped half of their teams (the Welsh weren't all that competitive until this happened, their talent was spread much thinner than then Irish and Scots plus they couldn't finance that many teams).

If the Pro12 expands it will probably be to 14 teams and will divide into two conferences of 7 with extended playoffs. Not a problem. But I don't think Wales, Scotland or Italy can afford to expand.

Actually less games with more internationals in each one might be more profitable in the long run if the corresponding TV deal is bigger.

Move to Leicester... it's a lot less than £50 to watch a game.

The night life is not as good as Cardiff but there is a hell of a lot less close-harmony-singing needlessly frightening visitors & natives alike.

And it is further away from Swansea. A truly dreadful place.

 

Where would the additional team come from Notch?

Spain doesn't appear to be in the race and Italy are overcooking with two sides.
Is Moscow too far to go?
Are its winters not a tad harsh?

And how would the conferences be determined? Annually on some points system or fixed ones?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Where would the additional team come from Notch?

Spain doesn't appear to be in the race and Italy are overcooking with two sides.
Is Moscow too far to go?
Are its winters not a tad harsh?

And how would the conferences be determined? Annually on some points system or fixed ones?

There;s not gonna be an additional team- even this 5th Welsh team is a pipe dream. We're more likely to go down to 11 or 10 than go up to 13 or 14, especially with the uncertainty over the European competitions.

I think that if we did have conferences though, seed the playoff teams from the year before and make the rest an open draw. That would be some craic.

Metal Tiger wrote:Move to Leicester... it's a lot less than £50 to watch a game.

The night life is not as good as Cardiff but there is a hell of a lot less close-harmony-singing needlessly frightening visitors & natives alike.

And it is further away from Swansea. A truly dreadful place.

 

Was in a hotel in Leicester a few years ago. My mate asked the guy on the desk "what are the high points of Leicester"

He thought for a second and said "there are none"

At that point the woman working beside him said "Ah come on, you can't say that"

"OK" he said "what are they?"

"Hmmmm" she said, and thought for a little while.

"Good point"

Having said that, Swansea is the only Welsh ground I have not been to yet. I'm going in Oct, so I'll let you know.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Where would the additional team come from Notch?

Spain doesn't appear to be in the race and Italy are overcooking with two sides.
Is Moscow too far to go?
Are its winters not a tad harsh?

And how would the conferences be determined? Annually on some points system or fixed ones?

There;s not gonna be an additional team- even this 5th Welsh team is a pipe dream. We're more likely to go down to 11 or 10 than go up to 13 or 14, especially with the uncertainty over the European competitions.

I think that if we did have conferences though, seed the playoff teams from the year before and make the rest an open draw. That would be some craic.

Ah. I see that you want to go the same way as I'd like with the Jeff except I want to ditch the playoffs but to pad the season with a meaningful RU Cup and replace the 'Grand Final' with an RUC final one which won't continually present the same old boring buggers like the Tigers et al.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Move to Leicester... it's a lot less than £50 to watch a game.

The night life is not as good as Cardiff but there is a hell of a lot less close-harmony-singing needlessly frightening visitors & natives alike.

And it is further away from Swansea. A truly dreadful place.

 

Was in a hotel in Leicester a few years ago. My mate asked the guy on the desk "what are the high points of Leicester"

He thought for a second and said "there are none"

At that point the woman working beside him said "Ah come on, you can't say that"

"OK" he said "what are they?"

"Hmmmm" she said, and thought for a little while.

"Good point"

Having said that, Swansea is the only Welsh ground I have not been to yet. I'm going in Oct, so I'll let you know.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing ever happened in Leicester. Witness its motto 'Semper Eadem' (Always the same). Nobody ever did anything - ever.

That's why its little more than a scrubland.

i thought Leicester was where tigers were invented. I'd say that's quite a claim to fame.

It's also where Gary Linekers were invented.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:i thought Leicester was where tigers were invented. I'd say that's quite a claim to fame.

It's also where Gary Linekers were invented.

This, like the discovery of Richard III's bones is all merely speculation. Or would be if it weren't proved by DNA testing.

I wonder where that was developed. I'll ask my mate (the greatest living Briton in my opinion), David Attenborough.

Calm down man. No one is saying that nothing ever happens in Leicester.

I was mearly quoting 2 Leicester natives who said it had no "high points" in response to someone who said Swansea was a dump.

Never even said I agreed with them.

Only and excepting the fact I wasn't responding to your post but to LP's, Jen, you are quite right.

Daren't say more lest another race riot gets going.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Only and excepting the fact I wasn't responding to your post but to LP's, Jen, you are quite right.

Daren't say more lest another race riot gets going.

so you quoted my post. But you were responding to his?........ Before he even posted?

Truly you are a master of time and space. :-)

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Only and excepting the fact I wasn't responding to your post but to LP's, Jen, you are quite right.

Daren't say more lest another race riot gets going.

so you quoted my post. But you were responding to his?........ Before he even posted?

Truly you are a master of time and space.  :-)

Oh this one, Jen:

portnoy wrote:    Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

       Metal Tiger wrote:Move to Leicester... it's a lot less than £50 to watch a game.

       The night life is not as good as Cardiff but there is a hell of a lot less close-harmony-singing needlessly frightening visitors & natives alike.

       And it is further away from Swansea. A truly dreadful place.

       Whistle


   Was in a hotel in Leicester a few years ago. My mate asked the guy on the desk "what are the high points of Leicester"

   He thought for a second and said "there are none"

   At that point the woman working beside him said "Ah come on, you can't say that"

   "OK" he said "what are they?"

   "Hmmmm" she said, and thought for a little while.

   "Good point"

   Having said that, Swansea is the only Welsh ground I have not been to yet. I'm going in Oct, so I'll let you know.



Nothing. Absolutely nothing ever happened in Leicester. Witness its motto 'Semper Eadem' (Always the same). Nobody ever did anything - ever.

That's why its little more than a scrubland.

I agree. That was clearly a rant and I must take more ritalin,

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Welcome to 606v2, Welshy. My advice would be to do what my dad did: he moved from Gogland to Newport.

It is ridiculous that North Wales has been overlooked / ignored for so long. Imagine if New Zealand ignored the North Island, or South Africa ignored everything north of the Vaal. We're not a big / populous nation and we can't afford to have a fair percentage of potential rugby talent slipping through the net.

luckless didnt you read he wants to watch high quality rugby

Ha, very good!

The conference style set up would probably pairing the Rabo unions up.
Ireland doesn't have the fan base to create a 5th region. Scotland could try to revive the borders. Wales has the option in the north, Italy is stretched to manage 2. So the natural split in the future would be;

Ireland (4) & Scotland (3)
Wales (5) & Italy (2)

You couldn't split the teams within a union up as the home derbies are the biggest drawing fixtures.
But for a sense of symetry, I'd reckon the Welsh need the Scots to try and set up a 3rd outfit.

Okay, actually there may be a couple of options for Ireland to create a 5th team. No of them would be totally great though from what I can see;
1 - Split Munster into its two natural bases of Cork and Limerick (but that would ruin the Munster set up).
2 - Split Leinster into Dublin and the rest of Leinster (but that could ruin the nice Leinster set up).
3 - Set up a midlands team based out of Athlone (that could damage the Connacht set up).
4 - Split Ulster into locals and South Africans............ or on some kind of political/religious divisions..... (probably not a popular option).

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Okay, actually there may be a couple of options for Ireland to create a 5th team. No of them would be totally great though from what I can see;
1 - Split Munster into its two natural bases of Cork and Limerick (but that would ruin the Munster set up).
2 - Split Leinster into Dublin and the rest of Leinster (but that could ruin the nice Leinster set up).
3 - Set up a midlands team based out of Athlone (that could damage the Connacht set up).
4 - Split Ulster into locals and South Africans............ or on some kind of political/religious divisions..... (probably not a popular option).

Well done for illustrating why there is absolutely no demand for a fifth team. Only possible goer is splitting Cork and Limerick, which would assure Ulster/Leinster dominance for the foreseeable future and is a bad idea all round.

Besides given the fact that 2 of our 4 South Africans are qualified to play for Ireland, Munster are overtaking us! 3 South Africans who are NIQ against our 2...

You could nearly make a pretty good team of South Africans out of the Pro12 though. Just not enough outside backs... Loads of players, just all locks! Loads of Saffer locks.

1. Jacobie Adriaanse (Scarlets)
2. Rob Herring (Ulster)
3. BJ Botha (Munster)
4. Quinn Roux (Leinster)
5. Johann Muller (Ulster)
6. Robbie Diack (Ulster)
7. CJ Stander (Munster)
8. Dries van Schalkwyk (Zebre)
9. Ruan Pienaar (Ulster)
10.
11. Gerard Van Den Heever (Munster)
12. Doppies La Grange (Treviso)
13.
14.
15. Zane Kirchener (Leinster)

Chavanga might have been a good shout at wing, Notch, but he's just left the Dragons unfortunately!

Have to agree with you welshy284. North Wales has been unfairly deprive of top flight rugby for nearly a century. I think it's a great idea that the U20s have been based there for the last 2years. They have the players, we know that. With a professional Region up there the area would produce a lot more of those players. This is also why some fans from the valleys p*ss me off. They complain they don't have a team because they can't be bothered to do a minimal amount of travelling, and believe it's their divine right to have all the rugby focus on them. Talk about living in the stone age . I hope RGC become the 5th Welsh team, though I'd prefer a change of name (Gwynedd?).

I do feel sorry for you lot up there and whoever created these regions should be shot. All the years we have argues and moaned about our 4(was 5 regions). We should have had a northern team at the start when the regions were created.
Until the Millenium stadium has been paid off, the WRU won't set up a 5th region. Their main priority is to pay off the debut they are in (which is understandable). I pray that when that day does finally come, they can put more of an effort into setting up a 5th region. They will also be able to help out the one's we already have now.
To me Ireland have gone about their duties all right, covering the whole off Ireland and look at there success.

Yeah. But the provinces have existed for millennia. Not like they had to be created. Originally the IRFU were going to enter the HC with the clubs (eg. Shannon, St Marys and Cork Con) would have been a blood bath.

Clubs were well supported back then with thousands turning out for games. Provinces were just invitational teams that played a couple of games per year. Made up of players from the clubs within them.

I've always wondered about the history of the provincial rugby teams. I guess they're so successful because there's a playing history there too. Also historically, I believe Ireland did have a fifth Provincial state?

Meath was a province. And the seat of the high king or Ireland. Before the Anglos split it into meath and westmeath. then most of it became part of Leinster.

Can you imagine where Irish Rugby would be if we had entered clubs into the HC instead of provinces? We would never have been able to get our best players back from England. We'd have no Heineken Cup wins instead of six wins. Rugby would still languish way behind other sports and the national team would probably never have won those Triple Crowns and the Grand Slam.

Even in the very early days Ulster having the clout to get David Humphreys and Simon Mason as marquee signings was crucial to our 98/99 campaign. No club could have got 'em.

They probably would have suffered the hammerings that the Welsh prem clubs from SOUTH Wales suffered. Not so long before the regional set-up there were occasions where they were beaten 70-100 points by the big clubs. Leinster also put 70 past Cardiff, I think I read it in the archives a while back.

Where about in Ireland would the provincial teams play against each other before professionalism?

Where they play now. Ravenhill, Sportsground, Musgrave Park, Thomond Park and Donnybrook. Connacht, Munster, Leinster and Ulster used to play in an Interprovincial Championship since the 1920s until it was scrapped once the Celtic League took over.

But they would only ever play the other provinces and occasionally an international touring side or a friendly against an English County side. So while the four provinces have been around for a very long time, before professionalism most weekends of the season were dedicated to club rugby with the interpros being a lot rarer.

Also Ulster were the best provincial side up until the Interpro Championship ended with 26 wins ahead of Munster (22 wins), Leinster (20 wins) and Connacht (2 wins)  

But I only barely remember the old tournament. Too young...

It's still interesting though. Poor Connacht!

http://www.irishrugby.ie/history/css/arch_history.htm

Never saw 70 points. Cardiff won the first HC semi v Leinster

I did see it a while ago, I'd have to go out of my way to find it. Toulouse had put the same amount past Newport in the same year. Looks like the Welsh clubs were doing well up until 1998, then the Irish took over.

Notch wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Okay, actually there may be a couple of options for Ireland to create a 5th team. No of them would be totally great though from what I can see;
1 - Split Munster into its two natural bases of Cork and Limerick (but that would ruin the Munster set up).
2 - Split Leinster into Dublin and the rest of Leinster (but that could ruin the nice Leinster set up).
3 - Set up a midlands team based out of Athlone (that could damage the Connacht set up).
4 - Split Ulster into locals and South Africans............ or on some kind of political/religious divisions..... (probably not a popular option).

Well done for illustrating why there is absolutely no demand for a fifth team. Only possible goer is splitting Cork and Limerick, which would assure Ulster/Leinster dominance for the foreseeable future and is a bad idea all round.

Besides given the fact that 2 of our 4 South Africans are qualified to play for Ireland, Munster are overtaking us! 3 South Africans who are NIQ against our 2...

You could nearly make a pretty good team of South Africans out of the Pro12 though. Just not enough outside backs... Loads of players, just all locks! Loads of Saffer locks.

1. Jacobie Adriaanse (Scarlets)
2. Rob Herring (Ulster)
3. BJ Botha (Munster)
4. Quinn Roux (Leinster)
5. Johann Muller (Ulster)
6. Robbie Diack (Ulster)
7. CJ Stander (Munster)
8. Dries van Schalkwyk (Zebre)
9. Ruan Pienaar (Ulster)
10.
11. Gerard Van Den Heever (Munster)
12. Doppies La Grange (Treviso)
13.
14.
15. Zane Kirchener (Leinster)

Can we say that Ulster only have 2 south african players using IQ terms when we then include 4 ulster players in our list of south africans playing in the Pro12?
Sorry Notch, just taking the perverbial.

How about a fifth Irish region based in the UK as an "Exile" side, there's big enough Irish population to sustain it?

Irish Londoner wrote:How about a fifth Irish region based in the UK as an "Exile" side, there's big enough Irish population to sustain it?

Which Union would they be primarily to IL?
What league would the play in or do they go straight to the Rabo?
Where would they play?
There'd be a lot of potential for nimbyism from clubs, leagues and maybe the RFU/PRL/WRU/SRU.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:How about a fifth Irish region based in the UK as an "Exile" side, there's big enough Irish population to sustain it?

Which Union would they be primarily to IL?
What league would the play in or do they go straight to the Rabo?
Where would they play?
There'd be a lot of potential for nimbyism from clubs, leagues and maybe the RFU/PRL/WRU/SRU.

I assume they would be under the IRFU as the union, otehrwise they wouldn't really count as an 'irish' side.

The Rabo was pretty much built on teams being made up to enter it, so there should be no issues with them entering.

I guess they would be based in London, and could groundshare with any football team (Fifa/FA regs permitting).

There can be the nimby attitude, but thats tough really there is nothing illegal about being based in one country and playing in a league from another country. Just look at Cardiff and Swansea in the football.

On reflection, the easiest path to create an Irish 5th region based in the UK might be for LI to cede from the Jeff (and RFU?).

Are the SRU not looking at doing this with London Scottish to enter a third team in the Rabo?

Coleman wrote:Are the SRU not looking at doing this with London Scottish to enter a third team in the Rabo?

I've heard speculation from v2 posters along these lines, Coleman. But any formal SRU proposal (suspicions thereof even) of one Union tapping up another's member might cause diplomatic feathers to fly.

I suspect that any public lead would have to come from the club.

Are London Scottish not dual members like London Welsh are with the WRU?

Didn't the Cornish Pirates talk about wanting to jump over in the past too?

Coleman/SS. Quite possibly. But if any team (LS,LW,CP or any other) actually elected to jump ship, I suspect that the leap back (should their foreign project fail) would no doubt be a lot more difficult.

Worse than LS & Richmond's problems in the early years of professionalism.

I'd hope that any side that did such a thing would be made to start again in the lowest basement. But there again under a league structure, there would be no inherent bar from either from aspiring to the Jeff in due course of time.

I don't think that there would be insurmountable issues with LI and/or the other Exile sides joining the RABO if it were to happen.
1 - There are too many professional sides in the London area, removing LI from the Premiership and LW/LS from the Championship could give the game in England room to expand nationally - maybe add a northern team instead?
2 - There would be very little overlap in terms of attendance, would LI v Leinster affect the attendance at Quins V Northampton on the same day?
3 - There would not have to be a reduction in the English qualified players at the Exile clubs, most of their recruitment would still be from the clubs catchment areas in England so the players would be largely English qualified if they chose to be.
4 - There would still be games with AP sides in whatever version of HEC/Amlin that emerges.
5 - The Exile derbies would be something!