How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

First topic message reminder :

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

It's a strong back three no doubt Rory but personally I'd take 11.Savea 14.Smith 15.Dagg at the moment. If Beale makes a successful return I'd probably take 11.O'Connor 14.Folau 15.Beale as well.

Doesn't mean I don't rate North, Halfpenny and Cuthbert just rate those guys slightly higher! Cuthbert I'd still say needs to work on his all round game with his positioning and defence still suspect at times.

All three of those make a mockery of 11.Brown 14.Ashton 15.Goode though!  

What I'd give to have a guarantee we'll see 11.Yarde 14.Wade 15.Brown in the coming AI's.

king_carlos wrote:It's a strong back three no doubt Rory but personally I'd take 11.Savea 14.Smith 15.Dagg at the moment. If Beale makes a successful return I'd probably take 11.O'Connor 14.Folau 15.Beale as well.

Doesn't mean I don't rate North, Halfpenny and Cuthbert just rate those guys slightly higher! Cuthbert I'd still say needs to work on his all round game with his positioning and defence still suspect at times.

All three of those make a mockery of 11.Brown 14.Ashton 15.Goode though!  

What I'd give to have a guarantee we'll see 11.Yarde 14.Wade 15.Brown in the coming AI's.

See I think Savea, Smith and Dagg do look very good but they aren't as internationally proven as the Welsh back three.  They are a relatively new unit, so for me I would have to see more from them.  Individually they may be better, but as a unit the Welsh take it.

England have some very good options coming through the ranks, the biggest problem they are going to face is who makes the best combination and sticking with that decision.  Constantly mixing and matching players is just going to disrupt both the players themselves and the team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: the biggest problem they are going to face is who makes the best combination and sticking with that decision.  Constantly mixing and matching players is just going to disrupt both the players themselves and the team.

Sticking with a right decision is important too. Selecting the right players seems to be a big problem for them under the last three coaches.

Dagg > Halfpenny
Smith > Cuthbert
Savea > North

That was easy.

England have one of the worst back-threes in top tier rugby, so blunt and slow.

Disappointed with the current French offering, nothing on the Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud vintage.

reallybored wrote:Dagg > Halfpenny
Smith > Cuthbert
Savea > North

That was easy.

England have one of the worst back-threes in top tier rugby, so blunt and slow.

Disappointed with the current French offering, nothing on the Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud vintage.

It could be Foden, Wade, Yarde next for all you know! Hardly slow!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

reallybored wrote:Dagg > Halfpenny
Smith > Cuthbert
Savea > North

That was easy.

England have one of the worst back-threes in top tier rugby, so blunt and slow.

Disappointed with the current French offering, nothing on the Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud vintage.

It could be Foden, Wade, Yarde next for all you know! Hardly slow!

I'd still prefer the Welsh, Irish and Scottish trios over those three.

reallybored wrote:Dagg > Halfpenny
Smith > Cuthbert
Savea > North

That was easy.

England have one of the worst back-threes in top tier rugby, so blunt and slow.

Disappointed with the current French offering, nothing on the Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud vintage.

I would agree with Dagg and Smith (just about mind, especially Dagg) but has Savea really proved himself to be better than George North? I'm not so sure. But that sort of proves my point, how many games have Dagg, Smith and Savea had together in the back three? Are they as experienced or as gelled as the Welsh back three? The welsh back three may not be as good individually as some other players, but as a unit they are the best in the world.

I'm not even sure Smith will stay on the wing for NZ, in the November tests he may well be playing at 13.

Hang on a minute, don't forget that this Welsh back-three did play a part in the 8 match winless run last year. Yes they all played very well for the Lions (Halfpenny especially) but that was against an Australian team that the ABs thrashed.

Cuthbert isn't world class (not even close), he's an effective finisher but that's it.

Halfpenny is probably the 2nd best 15 in the world currently but Dagg is a sensational (will just say that again, sensational) attacker and he produces the goods in almost every match.

North and Savea is closer but............North (31 caps / 60 points) & Savea (13 caps / 65 points).

What are you basing your opinion on other than the fact they've got more experience together?

I'm basing it on what I've seen, frankly. Halfpenny shown a side I haven't really seen before the Lions tour. He was fantastic on the counter attack, to go alongside his extreme solidity at the back. North and Cuthbert are both incredibly dangerous on the wing, and to be honest every time Ireland play Wales it is their back three that scares me most.

Cuthbert is one of the best finishers around, certainly not the complete article but he will continue to develop as a player. Being a world class finisher is a pretty good start though for a winger..

I don't get your point, when you bring up the losses against Australia and compare it to NZ thrashing Australia. NZ are a much better side than Wales, it is as simple as that. With an axis of Smith, Carter/Cruden, Nonu/SBW and Smith plus the NZ pack, you are going to have a much better chance to shine in the back three. I don't think it is a reasonable argument.

My argument would be that as a unit, the Welsh back-three isn't particularly balanced.

Neither North or Cuthbert are renowned for being particularly good footballers in the way Bowe or Smith are. But they suit the way Wales play; direct and powerful.

Halfpenny counter-attacked well in the 3rd Test but that was the first time in a while he has, whether that's due to ability or instruction I don't know. Undeniably one of the best defensive 15s in world rugby but hardly been a potent attacker from 15 over last 12 months.

Hence why I believe the AB back-three, individually and as a unit, are better because they have a wider range of skills (pace, power, handling & creativity)

reallybored wrote:My argument would be that as a unit, the Welsh back-three isn't particularly balanced.

Neither North or Cuthbert are renowned for being particularly good footballers in the way Bowe or Smith are. But they suit the way Wales play; direct and powerful.

Halfpenny counter-attacked well in the 3rd Test but that was the first time in a while he has, whether that's due to ability or instruction I don't know. Undeniably one of the best defensive 15s in world rugby but hardly been a potent attacker from 15 over last 12 months.

Hence why I believe the AB back-three, individually and as a unit, are better because they have a wider range of skills (pace, power, handling & creativity)

You don't think North is a known for being a good footballer? Really? He is one of the most skilful wingers around.

As for Halfpenny, I think we saw a glimpse of what he is capable of. I expect to see more of that side of him over the year.

reallybored wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

reallybored wrote:Dagg > Halfpenny
Smith > Cuthbert
Savea > North

That was easy.

England have one of the worst back-threes in top tier rugby, so blunt and slow.

Disappointed with the current French offering, nothing on the Clerc, Heymans, Poitrenaud vintage.

It could be Foden, Wade, Yarde next for all you know! Hardly slow!

I'd still prefer the Welsh, Irish and Scottish trios over those three.

I was just pointing out it probably won't be as slow!

And I also respectfully disagree

Well going by reallybored's hypothesis the Scottish trio would be the worst because the team they play for lose to pretty much everybody, so you don't need to worry CJ. Hogg, Visser and Maitland is a pretty good 'Scottish' back 3 though.

England's back 3 is certainly a work in progress, a unit is more than its individual parts though.

For what it's worth I agree with bored, the NZ back 3 is superior imo. North is only player who'd get close to that unit.

Dagg is a complete class above Halfpenny. I do like Halfpenny but the majority of the time(bar 3rd test as he was excellent) I feel if you take away his goal kicking I don't think he's that great. Dagg has everything and has ripped the best sides apart, I'm yet to see Halfpenny do this consistently.

As a top 3 side the English back 3 doesn't currently carry enough threat. If Manu doesn't play well and Farrell starts for us at 10 they struggle to get into the game. Going forward I'd love to see:

11. May
14. Wade/Yarde
15. Daly

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
England have some very good options coming through the ranks, the biggest problem they are going to face is who makes the best combination and sticking with that decision.  Constantly mixing and matching players is just going to disrupt both the players themselves and the team.

I'd agree with Maes sentiments the recent coaches have had a history of questionable selections in the back 3, i.e. messing around with players positions, throwing players in at the deep end then dumping them out and an over abundance of loyalty when really some harsh reality needed to be faced as to players form and effectiveness at the time.

With Lancaster whilst I loved seeing the 11.Yarde 14.Wade 15.Brown in the Summer it took his hand being forced with Goode injured, Ashton 'rested' etc for it to happen. Even with two of his first choice back 3 unavailable it looked like Strettle was going to be given one of the berths but he had a shocker in one of the warm up games.

Saying that I'd be surprised if Lancaster kept overlooking Wade on one wing but wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ashton and Goode reinstated along with him which would really frustrate given that in Goode's case I'd say other options now offer far more and in Ashton's case he's been woefully ineffective for an extended period of time, and Yarde/May have earned a chance IMO.

9.Youngs, Care
10.Farrell, Burns, Flood
11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt - Allen and Barritt very close though
13.Tuilagi, Daly - Hopefully Joseph can recapture his form with Bath
14.Wade, Eastmond
15.Brown, Foden, Tait - Harsh on Goode but we need pace and attacking threats back in the back three

Personally that is how I'd view things at the moment in terms of a pecking order for who I'd want to play. Eastmond I see as a winger at Int level due to his size. I'm no fan of the current fad with monsters in the centre but given he's exactly the same size as lil' Shane I'm just not sure he'll cope in centres but on the wing working the blindside and coming in field feeding off his half backs he could be brilliant I reckon.

One of the things I love about that group of players is the number of guys who could push the world class positions if given a shot.

North is a good player big strong and fast but I haven't seen enough from him to agree he is one of the most skillful wings around. At least I would say Habana, Smith, O'Conner, Jane (when recovered of course) would be more skillful than him - note not saying a better wing on balance just talking about skills - kicking, chasing, stepping, passing, fending, high balls, chip kicks, defending and all that jazz.

nganboy wrote:North is a good player big strong and fast but I haven't seen enough from him to agree he is one of the most skillful wings around. At least I would say Habana, Smith, O'Conner, Jane (when recovered of course) would be more skillful than him - note not saying a better wing on balance just talking about skills - kicking, chasing, stepping, passing, fending, high balls, chip kicks, defending and all that jazz.

Here s some research for you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8-7CE6DfE

Every player in the world has a youtube 'highlights' video making them look like the best player in the world.

Having said that North is a good winger, but not as rounded as the ones mentioned by nganboy.

Cyril wrote:Every player in the world has a youtube 'highlights' video making them look like the  best player in the world.

Having said that North is a good winger, but not as rounded as the ones mentioned by nganboy.

On that note:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwehyLYSRwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKPv8lHcoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIiE5b5fxqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqzQG-plrOk

He's an unreal runner but not a footballer, I'd agree with Nganboy. Top winger though.

I'd have North in my squad. Big, fast strong.

Here's a list of the wingers who have scored 3 or more test tries in the last 12 months:

Player............................Mat............Tries...........Tries/game
BG Habana (SA)..................9...............10......................1.1
SJ Savea (NZ)...................11..............10......................0.9
BR Smith (NZ).....................6................7......................1.2
ACG Cuthbert (Lions/Wales).10................6......................0.6
CS Jane (NZ)......................8................5......................0.6
TJW Visser (Scot)..............10................4......................0.4
BA Basson (SA)...................5................3......................0.6
I Folau (Aust).....................5................3......................0.6
F McFadden (Ire)................5................3......................0.6
GP North (Lions/Wales).......10................3......................0.3

Good to see us English doing so well

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Good to see us English doing so well

We'll set things right

Sorry should have said wingers only. Players like Tuilagi, Englebrecht, A Smith, and Fofana have all scored 4 or more tries. Jane also scored an additional try playing at full back. Fixed.

I'd like to throw in Marlon Yarde with his 2 tries to every 1 game played

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd like to throw in Marlon Yarde with his 2 tries to every 1 game played

Wasn't Lawrence Okoye on the other wing when he was at school. Could have been England's Jonah. Huge world class athlete.

blackcanelion wrote:I'd have North in my squad. Big, fast strong.

Here's a list of the wingers who have scored 3 or more test tries in the last 12 months:

Player............................Mat............Tries...........Tries/game
BG Habana (SA)..................9...............10......................1.1
SJ Savea (NZ)...................11..............10......................0.9
BR Smith (NZ).....................6................7......................1.2
ACG Cuthbert (Lions/Wales).10................6......................0.6
CS Jane (NZ)......................8................5......................0.6
TJW Visser (Scot)..............10................4......................0.4
BA Basson (SA)...................5................3......................0.6
I Folau (Aust).....................5................3......................0.6
F McFadden (Ire)................5................3......................0.6
GP North (Lions/Wales).......10................3......................0.3

This kinda shows the strengths and weaknesses of stats: I'd probably go with Habana and Savea being top wings at the moment, but there's no way I'd take Basson over North!

blackcanelion wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd like to throw in Marlon Yarde with his 2 tries to every 1 game played

Wasn't Lawrence Okoye on the other wing when he was at school. Could have been England's Jonah. Huge world class athlete.

Not sure if that's tongue in cheek or not but he IS an incredible athlete. I've said before but I think he's a good example of a major problem in English rugby - the best athletes in England do not become rugby players. A 20 stone guy who can run the 100 m in around 11 secs would be a rugby player in Wales, South Africa and New Zealand. I know people will say 'Well maybe he couldn't play' - fine, maybe not a winger, but at number 8? With some decent coaching I see no reason why he couldn't have been a basic but effective wrecking ball.

Completely forgot the OP's question. England's current world class players? I'd say probably an in form Dan Cole and possibly Corbisiero. No-one else sadly.

Hood83 wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd like to throw in Marlon Yarde with his 2 tries to every 1 game played

Wasn't Lawrence Okoye on the other wing when he was at school. Could have been England's Jonah. Huge world class athlete.

Not sure if that's tongue in cheek or not but he IS an incredible athlete. I've said before but I think he's a good example of a major problem in English rugby - the best athletes in England do not become rugby players. A 20 stone guy who can run the 100 m in around 11 secs would be a rugby player in Wales, South Africa and New Zealand. I know people will say 'Well maybe he couldn't play' - fine, maybe not a winger, but at number 8? With some decent coaching I see no reason why he couldn't have been a basic but effective wrecking ball.

Serious, I think he scored a try in the English schools final. He was competitive at a young age in the Olympics at shotput. I also know his stats of the 49'ers e.g. sprint, vertical jump and strength, combined with his size are seen as very impressive for a big man. There's no doubt about his athleticism. Given he was playing rugby he must have a been a huge potential.

As for being a rugby player in South Africa, Australia or NZ. I can't speak for SA. In Australia or NZ we would have struggled to keep him in rugby. the financial rewards are bigger in the NRL (and even more so in the AFL) for a big athletic kid. Case in point where I'm living (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeJ7FxolaQ). Chances are he'll be taller and heavier than any league player playing 1st grade next year when he turns 18 (he's already bigger than Bakkies Botha).

Are you prepared to say now Sgt Pooly that Aaron Smith is better than average? Genia showed fleeting flashes of what he's capable of in the Lions series and the Bledisloe games. But his passing was laboured, his kicking game was poor, his obsession with the blind side stunted the Wallaby attack and he was outplayed by Aaron Smith. Not saying Aaron Smith is better than Genia but he did have his measure in the Bledisloe tests. Obviously there appeared to be better protection for Smith but Genia's form has dropped considerably and it's not just the fault of the forwards in front of him.