Especially for socal - a haven to discuss sportmanship or the lack thereof

Okay everyone is allowed one WUM moment right - it's like a dog bite!  

I was perusing another forum and as chance would have it I stumbled upon this blog below.  Now like every seasoned frothy mouthed Fed fan, I knows a good yarn when I smells it.  

I'm awarding Novak 5/10 for effort at this match:

http://servolley.blogspot.co.il/2013/07/perspective.html

Oh dear - page doesn't seem to exist when link copied.

It reads like this:

Let's paint a little picture.

The year is 2007. The world number one, Roger Federer, is playing on the center court in the opening round of a Masters 1000 event. Let's say his opponent is an up-and-coming young talent, ranked somewhere in the top 30-40. Murray, Tsonga or anybody else you want.

Some of you might be starting to notice that I'm trying to create a similar situation to another tennis match, that took place years later.

The youngster wins a close first set against Federer, and in the second he seems to be the crowd favorite. (A little hard to imagine Roger Federer not being the favorite with the crowd, but weirder things have happened).
Federer saves a match point, and wins the second set tie break by the skin of his teeth.

Now imagine this: Federer walks back to his chair, and screams angry and offensive words towards the crowd. And I don't mean just talking loudly like Tommy Haas does when he's peed. I'm talking a full sized explosion.

How do you think the tennis world would react to something like that? First of all, it would obviously become by far the biggest 'breakdown' in Federer's career. Since he has never done anything close to that, everybody would be shocked. Bottom line - It would be a very big deal.

What I'm getting at is obviously the second round match in Madrid Masters 2013, between Novak Djokovic and Grigor Dimitrov. The first two sets unfolded in the exact same way as in the fictional match I described. Dimitrov was the clear crowd favorite in the second set, and after Djokovic secured it in a tie break, he shouted at the crowd "You can suck my d***" in Serbian.



But here's the catch: That little incident didn't seem to be a big deal with the fans. Sure, it was criticized, but soon enough nobody remembered. Curious, isn't it? You can't even imagine one guy doing something like that, yet when somebody else does it nobody seems to fall off their chair.

What if Federer started screaming stuff at his box and at the crowd in between points? I'm guessing there would be a replay of that moment on TV, and people would start speculating what he said. In fact, that's exactly what happened when Roger let a couple of angry words out against Murray at this year's Aussie Open. After all, it's not exactly an every day occurrence. Yet when Murray does this exact same thing, I doubt anybody would bother turning their heads towards the TV. And not because they don't like or don't care about Murray, not at all. It's just that it would be a standard event in the public's eye. "So what if he did? He does it all the time".

It has come to the point where you can't deny it. Federer's rare slips immediately become iconic moments. Like him smacking his racket in Miami or yelling "Shut up!" at Roland Garros. There are GIFs  and videos everywhere.

An athlete's sportsmanship is not defined by the reaction of the public to his 'bad moments', or by the amount of times he does something uncharacteristic during one period or another. The higher you hold the bar - The easier it is to make a mistake, and Federer has been consistently holding his bar very high throughout his illustrious career.

It's important to keep things in perspective.
Posted 1 week ago by Bashkatik

Yes, yes Djokovic shouldn't have shouted at the fans. But the fans were really atrocious and did not follow the etiquette of the game during that tournament. Either way they have a right to cheer against Nadal's nemesis and Djokovic should have handled it better, not a good day for Novak. Wow, should I know light myself on fire like a man who got crabs from his wife of 20 years, should I defensively write a chronicle like the encyclopedia Britannica categorizing all the good things Novak has done for charity and the fans inducing vomit on the part of neutral tennis fans? I know maybe I will create a straw man and kill the messenger who posted the message, question their life, honesty, or call them stupid? Or what I could do is just admit he made a mistake, give the context to the story and just move on like a sane fan of a player and not some sort of supplicant to a tennis playing Yahweh.

socal1976 wrote:Yes, yes Djokovic shouldn't have shouted at the fans. But the fans were really atrocious and did not follow the etiquette of the game during that tournament. Either way they have a right to cheer against Nadal's nemesis and Djokovic should have handled it better, not a good day for Novak. Wow, should I know light myself on fire like a man who got crabs from his wife of 20 years, should I defensively write a chronicle  like the encyclopedia Britannica categorizing all the good things Novak has done for charity and the fans inducing vomit on the part of neutral tennis fans? I know maybe I will create a straw man and kill the messenger who posted the message, question their life, honesty, or call them stupid? Or what I could do is just admit he made a mistake, give the context to the story and just move on like a sane fan of a player and not some sort of supplicant to a tennis playing Yahweh.

"But the fans were really atrocious and did not follow the etiquette of the game during that tournament" It's wrong but you justify it a bit.... Perhaps your right and they deserved it..

However, you can't forget and constantly harp on Federer saying "Be quiet" to Djokovics box who were atrocious and not following the etiquette of the game when they were heckling him during points (something I witnessed the father and some cousins do to another player in Cinci years later) "Be Quiet vs. "Suck my......"

So perhaps- the non hypocritical thing would be to "call it even" and move on........... they all make mistakes.

I actually couldn't care less about what Djokovic did in Madrid. That crowd wasn't just cheering Dimi, they were booing Novak. It was pretty hostile.

If you dish it out, you have to take it back.

I feel the same way about football crowds who hurl abuse at a player all match and then get all indignant if he gives them anything back.

The reason Fed's mistakes get unfair attention (and it is unfair) is because of how he's presented by his sponsors. Rolex, Nike, the media in general really, his 'corporate image' is of the sophisticated genius. If he does anything that doesn't chime totally with that, it stands out.

Nadal's image is "the warrior". That doesn't require good behaviour. Novak's is "the joker". That doesn't require good behaviour. So they get an easier ride because people don't feel that anything is misleading.

The flipside for Fed is that his image is MASSIVELY more marketable than the others. He therefore earns far more than anyone else. If the price of this enormous wealth (which is vital to his future plans, both personal and philanthropic) is that he gets more grief than others for his mistakes, I'm sure Federer would be willing to accept that.

HM Murdoch wrote:I actually couldn't care less about what Djokovic did in Madrid. That crowd wasn't just cheering Dimi, they were booing Novak. It was pretty hostile.

If you dish it out, you have to take it back.

I feel the same way about football crowds who hurl abuse at a player all match and then get all indignant if he gives them anything back.

The reason Fed's mistakes get unfair attention (and it is unfair) is because of how he's presented by his sponsors. Rolex, Nike, the media in general really, his 'corporate image' is of the sophisticated genius. If he does anything that does chime totally with that, it stands out.

Nadal's image is "the warrior". That doesn't require good behaviour. Novak's is "the joker". That doesn't require good behaviour. So they get an easier ride because people don't feel that anything is misleading.

The flipside for Fed is that his image is MASSIVELY more marketable than the others. He therefore earns far more than anyone else. If the price of this enormous wealth (which is vital to his future plans, both personal and philanthropic) is that he gets more grief than others for his mistakes, I'm sure Federer would be willing to accept that.

This is a fair and well thought post and view of the landscape of things.

@TP... you had an extra ":" in the link, so it was not working. I took the liberty of correcting it and fixing it. Please excuse the intrusion.

Oh thanks LF - I am such a Luddite!  

lol socal!  I think you are agreeing with Bashkatik, the author of the above blog, when he says :
'It's important to keep things in perspective.' : ?  

Great post HM

HM Murdoch wrote:I actually couldn't care less about what Djokovic did in Madrid. That crowd wasn't just cheering Dimi, they were booing Novak. It was pretty hostile.

If you dish it out, you have to take it back.

I feel the same way about football crowds who hurl abuse at a player all match and then get all indignant if he gives them anything back.

The reason Fed's mistakes get unfair attention (and it is unfair) is because of how he's presented by his sponsors. Rolex, Nike, the media in general really, his 'corporate image' is of the sophisticated genius. If he does anything that doesn't chime totally with that, it stands out.

Nadal's image is "the warrior". That doesn't require good behaviour. Novak's is "the joker". That doesn't require good behaviour. So they get an easier ride because people don't feel that anything is misleading.

The flipside for Fed is that his image is MASSIVELY more marketable than the others. He therefore earns far more than anyone else. If the price of this enormous wealth (which is vital to his future plans, both personal and philanthropic) is that he gets more grief than others for his mistakes, I'm sure Federer would be willing to accept that.

I put Federer and Nadal in the same category. "Nadal the warrior doesn't require good behaviour" Pfft. Back to the hypothesis by time please about the reaction if Nadal told the crowd what to do, hurled abuse at his box or threw his raquet. They both are held to higher standards than the others and are massively more marketable than the others. But they are rivals so the competition to be whiter than white is often included in their rivalry. Hence some fans of one or the other call the other player out for all kinds of trivial behavior.

Other players are not held to such high standards but Federer and Nadal have set the bar and all players are kept in check by it to a greater or lesser extent. Will things be the same after they both retire? I don't know. I can't think of any two present players who if talented enough to hold the top spots for so long that I can imagine playing it in the same way as these two.

Just one thing HE - it's not my hypothesis but written by someone called Bashkatik. Wouldn't want to steal his thunder!  

socal1976 wrote:Yes, yes Djokovic shouldn't have shouted at the fans. But the fans were really atrocious and did not follow the etiquette of the game during that tournament. Either way they have a right to cheer against Nadal's nemesis and Djokovic should have handled it better, not a good day for Novak. Wow, should I know light myself on fire like a man who got crabs from his wife of 20 years, should I defensively write a chronicle  like the encyclopedia Britannica categorizing all the good things Novak has done for charity and the fans inducing vomit on the part of neutral tennis fans? I know maybe I will create a straw man and kill the messenger who posted the message, question their life, honesty, or call them stupid? Or what I could do is just admit he made a mistake, give the context to the story and just move on like a sane fan of a player and not some sort of supplicant to a tennis playing Yahweh.

I would advise Djokovic not to shout at crowds. To play his best Djokovic perhaps more than other players needs them to support him so he should be nice to them. Djokovic himself knows this and has introduced a little dance routine at the end of his act in an attempt to please them...

OK time please credit to Bashkatik

Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

I think that the etiquette should apply to both the players and the fans. Nothing irks me more than booing and I saw that in the Janowicz/Dancevic match last night.

Yes players will lose their cool at umpire or berrate themselves and complain if they are not playing well. If fans are going to dish it out, it stands the reason they should take it back. It annoys me especially in football when I hear the counter argument "my ticket pays the wages" granted it contributes, but it doesn't buy you a person to abuse"

I also don't but this Rafa's misdemeanours are less highlighted. Anyone who has been on a tennis forum knows that Nadal's behaviour is the highlight of endless discussions. Maybe in the media not so much probably because timewasting is an accepted norm. I know Fleming and Courier have spoken about the annoying factor that is timewasting.

I remember playing in a football cup final infront of a crowd of 250 to which a drunked member called me a "dirty cheating c***!" for what he percieved was me fouling the opposing striker. I noted his view and deep into the second half I went to clear the ball, saw my new friend and smacked the ball at him and knocked his beer out everywhere. If I was booed in a tennis match, I wouldn't be blowing kisses to the fans afterwards thats for sure

HM Murdoch wrote:Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

Agree with this. Nadal and Federer are not a twosome, Federer stands alone at the top of tennis as icon and a brand. Rafa is for sure in second place, but as Murdoch says if Federer had barged Rosol the Internet would have melted! They are judged differently, marketed differently and Federer is definitely held accountable for his actions more than Rafa.

Danny_1982 wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

Agree with this. Nadal and Federer are not a twosome, Federer stands alone at the top of tennis as icon and a brand. Rafa is for sure in second place, but as Murdoch says if Federer had barged Rosol the Internet would have melted! They are judged differently, marketed differently and Federer is definitely held accountable for his actions more than Rafa.

I agree with HM as well  

carrieg4 wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

Agree with this. Nadal and Federer are not a twosome, Federer stands alone at the top of tennis as icon and a brand. Rafa is for sure in second place, but as Murdoch says if Federer had barged Rosol the Internet would have melted! They are judged differently, marketed differently and Federer is definitely held accountable for his actions more than Rafa.

I agree with HM as well  

Well I disagree as I believe they are both held to the same standard but maybe you missed this bit of my comment?

hawkeye wrote:But they are rivals so the competition to be whiter than white is often included in their rivalry. Hence some fans of one or the other call the other player out for all kinds of trivial behavior.

Ha ha! I thought the internet did melt after Rafa was supposedly mean to Rosol. He is still being figuratively "slaughtered" for it. Funny because my memory of that match is Rafa fetching Rosol's raquet for him after he had thrown it in triumph.

I don't think anyone disputes your right to disagree HE. Murdoch, Carrie and myself have a different opinion to you.

And nobody is saying that there was no reaction to the Rafa Rosol barge. What people are saying is they think it would have been a more extreme reaction if it had been Roger who barged him, for all the reasons articulated above.

^ A more extreme reaction? Is that possible?

Definitely. A bit of aggression from someone who has a reputation as a warrior is one thing, the same behaviour from someone who has a reputation as an unflappable gentleman would be way bigger news.

Plus, nobody is analysed like Federer.

hawkeye wrote:[my memory of that match is Rafa fetching Rosol's raquet for him after he had thrown it in triumph.

I absolutely believe that this is your memory of the match!

Regarding the article, I thought Novak was making a kind offer to a lady in the crowd.

It's sad when posters always look for the worst in player.  

HM Murdoch wrote:Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

Not to mention the admitted coaching.. IF Annacone told the world he coached Federer throughout a match, all hell would break lose amongst the fans... Barely a reaction with Nadal.

HM Murdoch wrote:Hawkeye, I disagree, Nadal is not held to the same standard as Federer.

Roger still gets grief for his rant at the umpire in USO09. Rafa's moaned at umpires a few times down the years but none of these got the same level of attention.

And if Federer had behaved against a low ranked player in the same way that Rafa behaved against Rosol, he'd be slaughtered for it.

With Rafa, some people excused this as just showing how competitive he is and he was playing tactical pyschological games etc.

Likewise with Rafa's slow serving and his keeping opponent waiting at the net. That's frequently explained as it just being his personality. Fed would get loads of grief if he acted like that.

Not to mention the admitted coaching.. IF Annacone told the world he coached Federer throughout a match, all hell would break lose amongst the fans... Barely a reaction with Nadal.

hawkeye wrote:

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Ha ha! I thought the internet did melt after Rafa was supposedly mean to Rosol. He is still being figuratively "slaughtered" for it. Funny because my memory of that match is Rafa fetching Rosol's raquet for him after he had thrown it in triumph.

As HMM implies, perhaps just a hint of selective memory syndrome there hawkeye .....

And if, as you say, the "internet did melt", I wonder was that possibly prompted by certain happenings (ie other than the result itself) during the course of play, not least the latter stages  ?

Or did everyone share your own memory of the match, causing the internet to catch fire when Rafa kindly picked up Lukas' racquet for him at the handshake ........

Have to agree with the criticism of Rafa for coaching in my mind that is a big breach on Nadal's part and he and his camp have been warned and cited for it on numerous occasions it really is getting ridiculous, they were caught again red-handed at IWs.

For the people who want us only to talk about the positives in players so as opposing fans don't get their feelings hurt or so that we can all as a forum attain nirvana like the Buddha or something just think how boring this forum would be. Sitting around and focusing on the positive only, I mean if you guys couldn't complain about the conditions and I can't take a run at Federer or Hawkeye can't continue in her online jihad against Murray you do realize we eliminate about 60 percent of the text on this website. If you can't stomach negatives about your player when he plays like crap or exploration of stupid minutia gossip that gets over analyzed then you probably shouldn't frequent a website where opposing fans interact.

Great post by Murdoch as usual, I also liked it when Novak went ballistic on Roddick in the post match interview and became the most hated man in New York for that open. Roddick deserved it for his comments and the fans always act like lunatics in New York. Frankly the New York and paris crowds deserve to be cursed at and Madrid was even worse that night.

socal1976 wrote:For the people who want us only to talk about the positives in players so as opposing fans don't get their feelings hurt or so that we can all as a forum attain nirvana like the Buddha or something...

Well, no-one has said they want that, so any following argument doesn't really apply

Nadal is an uncultured barbarian who has never read any tennis rules.

MWUHAHAHHAHHAH love this thread.

HM Murdoch wrote:

hawkeye wrote:[my memory of that match is Rafa fetching Rosol's raquet for him after he had thrown it in triumph.

I absolutely believe that this is your memory of the match!

I'm sure it would have also been HE's abiding memory if it had been Murray who had been playing and shoulder barged his opponent halfway through.

I agree Fed is held to the highest standards. For all the reasons that have been set out above that's understandable. As it happens I would say all the top 4 display high standards of sportsmanship - albeit each have their flaws. Djokovic's applause for opponents and willingness to concede points for me gives him the narrow edge over the others for me.

time please wrote:Oh dear - page doesn't seem to exist when link copied.
What I'm getting at is obviously the second round match in Madrid Masters 2013, between Novak Djokovic and Grigor Dimitrov. The first two sets unfolded in the exact same way as in the fictional match I described. Dimitrov was the clear crowd favorite in the second set, and after Djokovic secured it in a tie break, he shouted at the crowd "You can suck my d***" in Serbian.

That's so cool, I think he's my definitely my second favourite of the top 4 above Murray. Doesn't give a s*** about his image and when it comes down to it plays the fairest in terms of giving points and applauding shots though not for wasting time... I don't know who to have as more sporting on court, Novak or Fed for that reason. I don't even mind when he beats Fed either as he really plays tennis.

bogbrush wrote:Regarding the article, I thought Novak was making a kind offer to a lady in the crowd.

It's sad when posters always look for the worst in player.  

  I just had to bump this!

So thoughts on Raonic's sportsmanship..

Born Slippy wrote:So thoughts on Raonic's sportsmanship..

As an amateur player I thought it was bloody disgraceful. I would always own up to it immediately, and also if the edge of your racket hits the ball. I'd expect my opponents to do the same. Maybe for professionals, with more at stake, that lack of sportsmanship is a bit more understandable, but it doesn't sit at all well with me.

Born Slippy wrote:So thoughts on Raonic's sportsmanship..

Not great.... But more so awful umpiring. On the replay you can see he looks down and can see Raonic moving his foot away from the net with that part of the net shaking. There is nothing close to the net except Raonic.

I think he bottled it. He did the same in the Wimbledon final when he meekly - but correctly - called a Novak shot out, but the players played on and he didn't have the conviction to stop play.

I agree Danny. It was very bad indeed from Raonic not to hold his hand up - in the heat of battle on such an important point I suppose you might kid yourself that the ball had bounced before you hit the net, but the umpire should have corrected himself when it was replayed on the big screen.