Who's higher - Bowe's wins vs Wlad's longevity ???

First topic message reminder :

Riddick Bowe gets a tough rap on here...Wrongly accused of cowardice against Lewis ..when in all reality as in the KO head to head most picked him to beat a 1994-Lewis (that's a 1994 Lewis!!).........Remember Eddie futch just before mccall stuffed Lewis saying he didn't rate him at all...For sure he had a duck in the hunt but he was right not too....Lewis was average back then !!..Bowe knocks him out for me..

However...........If you consider a win to be a win..............

Bowe beat a prime Hofer in Holyfield twice.........a top rated Pierre Coetzer...........Unbeaten Larry Donald...........unbeaten highly rated Jorge Luis Gonzalez......Unbeaten Herbie Hide...and like it or not an unbeaten Andrew Golota twice too.........(Louis is credited with walcott 1 and even he believed he lost that!!)

Considering Wlad was punched out by the less than stellar Sanders and Brewster...Though he avenged the latter...Haye apart who is in no way shape or form a peak Holyfield .........he's fought years of crud.............

How much emphasis do you put in longevity...........Me I don't put much...I don't think Eusebio Pedroza was a great fighter...He is because Laporte apart he beat crud for seven years.........Taylor the best fighter he fought he drew with.........Olivares was shot when Eusebio fought him....

I find Bowe's record more impressive than Wlad's..........A peak Holyfield is a wonderful win and Holy is a top 10 heavy for me !!

Not Wlad's fault but he hasn't really fought anybody.......

For me Bowe is higher..........

Bowe's two wins over Holy are miles ahead of anything Wlad has beat....and Gonzalez was much heralded before Bowe beat him...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bowe's two wins over Holy are miles ahead of anything Wlad has beat....and Gonzalez was much heralded before Bowe beat him...

but that is my point, Should that 1 great win mean that we ignore Wlads 10 year hw champ reign and ignore that Bowe was only world cham for 11 months?

A whole load of comparable wins and two great wins makes the gulf in class quite big, all you're doing is stating number over and over again as if it's groundhog day. Bowe had Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Moorer, Old Foreman, Golota and a load of other good fighters around so he isn't going to have the same level of dominance. Dominating the bum of the month club of the 00's doesn't do a lot for your overall standing, beating a world class fighter twice does.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:A whole load of comparable wins and two great wins makes the gulf in class quite big, all you're doing is stating number over and over again as if it's groundhog day. Bowe had Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Moorer, Old Foreman, Golota and a load of other good fighters around so he isn't going to have the same level of dominance. Dominating the bum of the month club of the 00's doesn't do a lot for your overall standing, beating a world class fighter twice does.

tyson was not around when Bowe was at his peak because Tyson was out of boxing from 91-95.

Bowe beat Holyfield and all the rest of his wins are on the same level as klitschkos.

2 title defences in the whole of his career is very poor.

11 months as world champion in the whole of his career is very poor.

beating Holyfield does not eradicate the above.

Jorge Luis Gonzalez was a well respected unbeaten fighter.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Jorge Luis Gonzalez was a well respected unbeaten fighter.....

Yes he was but is he any better than haye or povetkin? and is he so good that it means we should disregard klitschkos 10 year dominance and ignore bowe's lack of dominace when deciding who will rank higher in the hof rankings?

Presumably you would rank Chris John higher than Barrera at featherweight because of his longevity as opposed to a series of great wins?

Would have to add it's not really dominance when you don't beat your nearest rival regardless of whether he's your brother or not.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Presumably you would rank Chris John higher than Barrera at featherweight because of his longevity as opposed to a series of great wins?

Would have to add it's not really dominance when you don't beat your nearest rival regardless of whether he's your brother or not.

Plucking at straws there.

In fairness he's seen Gonzales........Have you, CS ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness he's seen Gonzales........Have you, CS ??

Isn't Gonzalez the same as the unbeaten fighters klitschko has beaten? Povetkin is seen by many as a very dangerous fghter, He is an olymic gold medalist, world champion and unbeaten but we all know as soon as he steps in the ring with klitschko he will get Ko'd.

Audley was a gold medallist...........

Gonzalez was highly regarded.........

You're a stubborn SOB these days......Go easy on the bench press............

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Audley was a gold medallist...........

Gonzalez was highly regarded.........

You're a stubborn SOB these days......Go easy on the bench press............

you excited about wilder fighting later tonight?

He doesn't excite me ...no

An unbeaten record is a relatively new phenomenon, beating a previously beaten Haye for instance is a better than anything.

It was a serious question with regards to John and Barrera.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:An unbeaten record is a relatively new phenomenon, beating a previously beaten Haye for instance is a better than anything.

It was a serious question with regards to John and Barrera.

You said that youa re surrised I have taken Klitschkos side or I am his fan due to my username. Why would my username stop that?

It's quite obvious that you'd be a fan of the brothers.

As a comparison would you rate John higher than Barrera?

why is it obvious?

A hunch, stop bypassing the question?

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:A hunch, stop bypassing the question?

what question?

Buster Douglas has an individual win better than anything either brother can boast. Does anyone think he deserves to rank above them?

I'd rate Wlad higher than Bowe, in fact I would struggle to place Bowe in the top 20.He was getting a hiding from Hide who was out weighed by miles and Galota would have won both fights but for the DQs.When you look at how easily Lewis dispatched Galota you realise that Galota was never more than a contender. Bowe's best results were against Holyfield and I must admit he did have heart,to get up after being decked by Holyfield and he didn't give up against Galota but he was lazy and doesn't deserve a spot in the top twenty.

Gonzalez was "highly regarded" before facing Bowe in much the same way that Grant was highly regarded before fighting Lewis. Not a win to get too excited about whichever way you try to spin it Truss, particularly if you're going to scoff at Wladimir's wins over the likes of Peter, Chagaev, Ibragimov etc, were are at least comparable if not better.

You talk about "seeing Gonzalez" as if that makes any difference. Well, I've seen him desperately holding on for dear life every time Bowe got in close, copping it smack in the face every time Bowe threw a jab and basically get outclassed and beaten up for six rounds before disappearing in to oblivion and having a subsequent career which was as bad as his hair do (hair don't might be more appropriate!).

Fine amateur fighter but let's not pretend he carried that in to the pro ranks.

Alas, we're left with Riddick's two wins over Evander, admittedly excellent ones with the first, of course, being a good distance better than anything on Wladimir's record. But outside of that, precious little and many of the fights branded 'embarrassing' for Wladimir were no worse than the farce which was Bowe-Dokes.

I think it's an insult to Wladimir's consistency, professionalism and longevity to have Bowe higher than him, really, just like it'd be an insult to have, say, Vernon Forrest higher than Mayweather as a Welterweight purely on the basis of his two wins over a peak, undefeated pound for pound top dog Mosley being better than any singular wins Floyd has at 147.

In short, my issue is that when people think of Bowe's career, they just think of the Holyfield fights and nothing else. That wasn't his career, just a relatively small segment of it and the rest of it was nothing special at all in comparison. Wladimir might not have that ultimate high, but there comes a point where overall consistency has to surpass a flash in the pan high and I reckon Wladimir passed that point quite a while ago.

Then again can't see Bowe getting banged out by Sanders and Brewster in his prime....

Peter, Chagaev better than Gonzalez....okay........

Holyfield in his prime x2 beats Wlad for all money..

By your resoning you have Pedroza above Sanchez right ?

Pedroza's 7 years vs Sanchez - Gomez Lopez and green Nelson (Gomez and Nelson = Holy x 2)........Red was good but nothing special..

Wlad hasn't beaten anybody best to remember that............But at least he has a brother to help him when somebody does..

But fairplay.....you make a good case..........

But beating crud doesn't do it for me.......But I respect your opinion...

Was Wlad in his prime at the time it happened Truss. Would argue he has become a far more effective defensive fighter on the back of these low points. You may well be right that Bowe would not get done in such a manner like such fighters but that again comes back to the captains point of the difference between head to head and all time standing.

Bowe may well have been the more capable and skilled fighter but did not convert his obvious skills into prolonged levels of success in the ring. I personally could never see Ricky Burns beating Duran but that does not mean he deserves to be below Kirkland Laing in the British rankings for ever

Not more of this green s**t..............

Sanders should be more of a black mark for Wlad than it is...He was hammered....

You of all people should hold his losses against him.... If the last Lewis thread is anything to go by..

Longevity is a poor argument..especially when YOUR BROTHER reigns a long side you..

How pitiful is that..An eternal shame to heavyweight boxing that a family can take the prize like taking candy from a baby..

Losses do count against him same as they count against Lewis. They are the reason I cannot get with the idea Lewis is a top ten guy and they are much of the reason I cannot get with the idea Wlad warrants a top 15 place.

Nobody is arguing the early losses do not count against him, only that he has done enough subsequent to that to still deserve to be ranked at least in the top 20 all time at his weight and above a guy like Bowe whose peak was extremely short and subsequent fall from grace was hugely pronounced. As I have said before Dick Tiger managed to lose four on the bounce early in his career, should this preclude him from the middleweight rankings for the rest of time, or should we assess their career as a whole.

Thing is he hasn't fought anybody as dangerous as Sanders...and he looked awful against Brewster...almost pitiful...........

I cannot believe a guy with his level of skill can be considered top 20........

His brother is so poor...everytime Lewis worked it was like Ali-Chuvalo...

Both are so ordinary it's unbelievable and both lose to 1990 Holy.......

Bowe's two wins for me outweigh the dross of eight years.........

Like I said I don't regard Pedroza as great.........

If Foreman is top 5 with Frazier and Norton..and Lyle................

Then can't Bowe be top 20 with Holy x 2.................and some unbeaten names..

We disagree on his skill level Truss. I would agree he does not have the widest of repertoire but he does what he does very effectively. Only really has the jab and straight right but both are thrown well and contain obvious power. Defensively his footwork and judging of distance is better than it should be for a big man and whilst his tying up once close is not pretty it is damned effective.

Add into that he always comes in in absolutely tip top shape (certainly post his losses) and sticks to his gameplan with almost military precision and whilstit may not make for the most complete skill set or aesthetically pleasing of fighters for me it adds up to a half way decent fighter.

He's a modern day Jeffries..........Without the Fitz and the Johnson's to worry about........

He looks half decent because of the opposition..........

Haye was scared stiff..........That is his only win of substance...

Like I said a left handed hitter like Sanders made him look like a novice....

Anybody who considers Vitali great should look at the Lewis fight......

An old tired fighter hitting him with everything he threw.........

Bruno knocks both of them out..........They are made for him..

It's not a nationality thoing either...People have fought and died for the greatest prize in sports...and now two brothers can play with the thing..

It's abhorrent and it cheapens the sport........

Felt the same way when the Williams sisters were winning every tennis tournament..

Louis had longevity but at least he had some live victims.........

It's all about having the highs to balance out the lows which I don't think Wlad does other than with longevity. Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Louis would reign for an eternity against the dross that is around right now.

Louis has longevity but in that he has wins of substance, his pre title run is about as good as anyones with Carnera, Sharkey and Baer all former champions (not belt holders but THE world champion). Uzcudun and Levinsky were solid fighters who won about as many big fights as they lost while his loss to Schmeling was overturned in devastating fashion. His reign like Wlads is fairly poor but he did at least have Conn and Walcott, add in the fact he's a multi faceted and talented boxer then his longevity means something.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:It's all about having the highs to balance out the lows which I don't think Wlad does other than with longevity. Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Louis would reign for an eternity against the dross that is around right now.

Louis has longevity but in that he has wins of substance, his pre title run is about as good as anyones with Carnera, Sharkey and Baer all former champions (not belt holders but THE world champion). Uzcudun and Levinsky were solid fighters who won about as many big fights as they lost while his loss to Schmeling was overturned in devastating fashion. His reign like Wlads is fairly poor but he did at least have Conn and Walcott, add in the fact he's a multi faceted and talented boxer then his longevity means something.

We are talking about Bowe and Wlad.

You are so dim.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:You are so dim.

I shall remind you of the site rules

1) Follow the Golden Rule and treat others as you would like to be treated!
3) No verbal abuse. Doing so violates rule #1 above.

Pleb!!!

I reckon the Bowe that beat golota gets completely and utterly destroyed and the one that fought Holyfield probably wins 7/10

milkyboy wrote:The thing with wlad is we know he'll go if you catch him, but he's proven nearly impossible to catch since he's learnt the leap back and grab defence. I'd back peak bowe to solve the problem head to head, but as no-one's yet shown us how, there remains that element of doubt.

The problem for Bowe in this match up is he never faced a big puncher, for all the talk of Wlad's chin at least he was knocked down by genuinely hard punchers, I don't think he would have been down on Holyfield's left hook, shaken up, but not down. Bowe also had an awful defence so if he was caught he would be sleeping. 50/50 for me.

ShahenshahG wrote:I reckon the Bowe that beat golota gets completely and utterly destroyed and the one that fought Holyfield probably wins 7/10

He still took a helluva lot of punches from Holyfield in the first fight, Golota was a decent genuine heavyweight hitter with a good jab. He would always give Bowe trouble unless he could bomb him out early.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Thing is he hasn't fought anybody as dangerous as Sanders...and he looked awful against Brewster...almost pitiful...........

I cannot believe a guy with his level of skill can be considered top 20........

What about Marciano? he was a plodder with a punch, safe to say he's rated pretty highly. Wladimir lacks many things but skills aren't one, he has great balance, footwork, technique, control of range, power, jab and left hook. Brewster was a disaster but let's not pretend like it was a one sided beatdown, he just bombed Brewster for four rounds, couldn't finish him then ran out of gas completely.

ShahenshahG wrote:I reckon the Bowe that beat golota gets completely and utterly destroyed and the one that fought Holyfield probably wins 7/10

This is illustrative of the argument for me: Wlad is very professional and consistent whereas Bowe has looked better at his best, but worse in his not-so-good outings. It's easy to say "Bowe's wins over Holyfield are better than anything Wlad could manage", but by the same token, Bowe took a pounding off of Golota twice - and I think Wlad outboxes Golota all day. For me, some people are really doing Wlad's skillset and professionalism a disservice. While I have him marked down for his KO losses and his opposition, he has still been champion for ages with an amazing KO %. His best wins are comparable to Bowe's aside from Holyfield; maybe not better or even equal, but in the ballpark - only he has stayed champion for far, far longer. It's very close, but Wlad gets it for me.

monty junior wrote:What about Marciano? he was a plodder with a punch, safe to say he's rated pretty highly.

Not by Az

I see C_S avoiding Ghosty's very simple question. I presume he would want someone to answer another random question before he addresses is.

azania wrote:I see C_S avoiding Ghosty's very simple question. I presume he would want someone to answer another random question before he addresses is.

So he is Ghosty

Still avoiding the question I see. Not a surprise.

azania wrote:Still avoiding the question I see. Not a surprise.

You just came back and already starting petty arguments

I'm not arguing. Simply pointing out a simple fact.

FYI I rate Wlad higher mainly due to his longevity. Actually ONLY due to his longevity. In a H2H and peak4peak, Bowe obliterates him with ease.

Care to address the point you avoided above? I doubt it very much given your history.

azania wrote:I'm not arguing. Simply pointing out a simple fact.

FYI I rate Wlad higher mainly due to his longevity. Actually ONLY due to his longevity. In a H2H and peak4peak, Bowe obliterates him with ease.

Care to address the point you avoided above? I doubt it very much given your history.

Stop turning a good debate into a pointless argument.

As I thought. No interest in responding to posts which throws your baseless theories out of the water.

Carry on crying.

azania wrote:As I thought. No interest in responding to posts which throws your baseless theories out of the water.

Carry on crying.

Well done  

Now we can actually stick to the thread rather than you looking for an argument.

That is what I was encouraging you to do. Try answering Terror's question. 

And so it begins, again.