Irish Provinces playing squads

Article from Indo today on the makeup of the provincial playing staff. Connacht really have a massive squad and Ulster has the smallest.

Leinster have the most internationals, but the 2nd smallest squad.

Despite having the smaller playing numbers, Munster still produces the most homegrown players. Interesting that Van der Heever is regarded as a project.

Ulster have the smallest squad.


CONNACHT
Squad size: 49
Irish internationals: 3
Home grown: 22
Non-Irish qualified: 7 (Craig Clarke, Aly Muldowney, James So'oialo, Dan Parks, Nathan White, George Naoupu, Michael Swift)
Project: 2 (Rodney Ah You, Danie Poolman)

LEINSTER
Squad size: 39
Irish internationals: 20 (two naturalised)
Home grown: 25
Non-Irish qualified: 3 (Jimmy Gopperth, Andrew Goodman, Zane Kirchner)
Project: 1 (Quinn Roux)

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/how-they-match-up-the-make-up-of-the-irish-provinces-for-this-season-29491330.html

MUNSTER
Squad size: 44
Irish internationals: 17
Home grown: 34
Non-Irish qualified: 2 (Casey Laulala, BJ Botha)
Project: 2 (CJ Stander, Gerhard van der Heever)

ULSTER
Squad size: 38
Irish internationals: 17 (one naturalised)
Home grown: 27
Non-Irish qualified: 4 (John Afoa, Johann Muller, Ruan Pienaar, Nick Williams)
Project: 1 (Jared Payne)

So basically looking at the number of Irish internationals as a percentage of IQ squad members:

Leinster 80%
Munster 50%
Ulster 62.96%
Connacht 13.63%

You'd have to say that those poor old Munster and Connacht bogger men are getting a raw deal......

rodders wrote:So basically looking at the number of Irish internationals as a percentage of IQ squad members:

Leinster 80%
Munster 50%
Ulster 62.96%
Connacht 13.63%

You'd have to say that those poor old Munster and Connacht bogger men are getting a raw deal......    

I don't think Leinster produced Cronin, Ross or Reddan  

As an aside, Bernard Jackman tweeted last week :

Bernard Jackman ‏@bernardjackman 7 Aug
@Murray_Kinsella Munster must have some talent in there academy because @shaneol10 is the real deal from what I have seen so far

Who is and isn't a project is open to debate.

For example. You could consider Andrew Goodman a project. Unlikely to ever play for Ireland, but if he got a third year on his contract it would allow him to play here without needing to occupy an NIQ spot. Like Bret Wilkinson.

But the glaring ommission for me is Nathan White. He will qualify for Ireland at the end of this season. He is a quality player and, given our lack of resources at TH, could be a squad player for the WC.
Rodney Ah you however........

The Connacht squad size must include their academy as well. 49 is very large for a team that doesn't get affected by internationals that much.

Anyway, there is far more to development than numbers of homegrown or Irish qualified in your squad. Let's hope that some of these will be blooded this year and that all the provences improve on last year. I want all irish HC and RD semi finals!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:But the glaring ommission for me is Nathan White. He will qualify for Ireland at the end of this season. He is a quality player and, given our lack of resources at TH, could be a squad player for the WC.
Rodney Ah you however........

White will be 34 by the next RWC, so investing gametime in him is questionable especially as he can't be involved with the team this season. Mike Ross will be 35 then as well so Ireland really need to be bringing through younger props now.

BTW not too sure of the figures as Connacht are shown as having only 3 Irish Internationals - presumably Duffy, Muldoon and Henshaw. However Ulster are shown as having 17 (one naturalised), who is presumably Diack yet he hasn't even been capped for the Wolfhounds AFAIK.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:But the glaring ommission for me is Nathan White. He will qualify for Ireland at the end of this season. He is a quality player and, given our lack of resources at TH, could be a squad player for the WC.
Rodney Ah you however........

White will be 34 by the next RWC, so investing gametime in him is questionable especially as he can't be involved with the team this season. Mike Ross will be 35 then as well so Ireland really need to be bringing through younger props now.

BTW not too sure of the figures as Connacht are shown as having only 3 Irish Internationals - presumably Duffy, Muldoon and Henshaw. However Ulster are shown as having 17 (one naturalised), who is presumably Diack yet he hasn't even been capped for the Wolfhounds AFAIK.

You can Add Loughney to that list. Did Marmion get a run in the states?
 
Think they must be referring to Court up North.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:So basically looking at the number of Irish internationals as a percentage of IQ squad members:

Leinster 80%
Munster 50%
Ulster 62.96%
Connacht 13.63%

You'd have to say that those poor old Munster and Connacht bogger men are getting a raw deal......    

I don't think Leinster produced Cronin, Ross or Reddan  

As an aside, Bernard Jackman tweeted last week :

Bernard Jackman ‏@bernardjackman 7 Aug
@Murray_Kinsella Munster must have some talent in there academy because @shaneol10 is the real deal from what I have seen so far

 So the team that has the highest number of players as percentage being irish internationals is also the second smallest squad, with a new coach and is also the side that needs to churn Ross/Cullen/Darcy/BOD in the medium term and deal with replacing the key decisionmaker on the field in Sexton. Some tough times ahead for Leinster.

Don't want to get into the argument of who produced who, just commenting on the situation as it will play out this season.

Didn't realise White was quite that old. he may still be needed to do a job if no one comes through this season who is better.

Will have his 34th birthday at the start of the WC.

Don't get me wrong. I hope at least one of Paddy Mac, Archer, Bent, Moore, Hagan etc etc. will be a better player than him by then.

And yes Court is the Ireland intl rather than the (as you point out) uncapped Diack.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:So basically looking at the number of Irish internationals as a percentage of IQ squad members:

Leinster 80%
Munster 50%
Ulster 62.96%
Connacht 13.63%

You'd have to say that those poor old Munster and Connacht bogger men are getting a raw deal......    

I don't think Leinster produced Cronin, Ross or Reddan  

As an aside, Bernard Jackman tweeted last week :

Bernard Jackman ‏@bernardjackman 7 Aug
@Murray_Kinsella Munster must have some talent in there academy because @shaneol10 is the real deal from what I have seen so far

Who is Shane O'Leary?

Goal kicking centre for Young Munster. Munster underage. Canada and now Grenoble.

Missed out on the Munster academy AFAIK.

I posted this in the Leinster thread but here is a bit on Shane

Jerry Sexton follows illustrious brother in making France switch
Friday, July 26, 2013
Jerry Sexton, younger brother of Lions out-half Jonny, has joined his sibling in making a move to French club rugby.

By Murray Kinsella

Jerry, 20, signed for Pro D2 side Auch on a one-year academy contract, coincidentally the same town Paul O’Connell is getting married in this weekend.

Sexton makes the move to the home of Les Bleus after impressing for St Mary’s in the Ulster Bank League. The second-row was part of the Ireland U20 squad for this year’s Six Nations clash against Scotland. Measuring 6ft 3ins and over 100kg, the lock represented Leinster up to U20 level.

Joining Sexton in Auch’s academy is Rory Kavanagh, a backline star for St Michael’s when they won the 2012 Leinster Schools Senior Cup.

Several other Irish prospects will be plying their trade in the Pro D2 this season with Mark Flanagan at Mont de Marsan, while Brian Hayes, Conor Gaston and Charlie Simpson have moved to Jeremy Davidson-coached Aurillac. Flanagan, 23, made nine appearances for Leinster over the last three seasons. Hayes, 22, was part of the Munster squad that beat Australia in 2010. Gaston, 22, and Simpson, 21, are both products of the Ulster academy. These moves follow the news that two young Irish players have joined Top 14 clubs. Peter Lydon, 21, joined Stade Francais’ academy last month having impressed at out-half for Seapoint in Division 2A while Shane O’Leary, 19, has signed for FC Grenoble’s academy, as part of a growing Irish contingent in the Rhone-Alpes region.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugb ... 38029.html

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:And yes Court is the Ireland intl rather than the (as you point out) uncapped Diack.

So why is Court naturalised and say Tuohy and Fitzpatrick aren't?

Presumably the two "naturalised" internationals at Leinster are Boss and Strauss?

Good point. Must not be Court then. Perhaps you were right about Diack, but he does not count as an international?

Boss did not have to be naturalised though. Strauss was the first player to be capped under the 3year rule afaik.

Hard to work out.

It doesn't make sense.

Court is no more "naturalised" than Boss - he played for Ireland A before he played for Ulster!

Ulsters fully capped internationals;

Tom Court, Rory Best, Declan Fitzpatrick, Dan Tuohy, Iain Henderson, Stephen Ferris, Chris Henry, Roger Wilson, Paul Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Craig Gilroy, Andrew Trimble, Paddy Wallace, Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Tommy Bowe

None qualify on residency. They must be on about Court, but why then leave out Fitzpatrick and Tuohy? All qualify through family ties to the island  

CONNACHT
Squad size: 49
Irish internationals: 3
Home grown: 22
Non-Irish qualified: 7 (Craig Clarke, Aly Muldowney, James So'oialo, Dan Parks, Nathan White, George Naoupu, Michael Swift)
Project: 2 (Rodney Ah You, Danie Poolman)

So that's 49 - 22 - 7 - 2 = 18 IQ players not home grown (37%)

LEINSTER
Squad size: 39
Irish internationals: 20 (two naturalised)
Home grown: 25
Non-Irish qualified: 3 (Jimmy Gopperth, Andrew Goodman, Zane Kirchner)
Project: 1 (Quinn Roux)

39 - 25 - 3 - 1 = 10 IQ players not home grown (26%)


MUNSTER
Squad size: 44
Irish internationals: 17
Home grown: 34
Non-Irish qualified: 2 (Casey Laulala, BJ Botha)
Project: 2 (CJ Stander, Gerhard van der Heever)

44 - 34 - 2 - 2 = 6 IQ players not home grown (14%)


ULSTER
Squad size: 38
Irish internationals: 17 (one naturalised)
Home grown: 27
Non-Irish qualified: 4 (John Afoa, Johann Muller, Ruan Pienaar, Nick Williams)
Project: 1 (Jared Payne)

38 - 27 - 4 - 1 = 6 IQ players not home grown (16%)


For all the plaudits given to the Leinster Schools system and their academy they are still having to import significantly more IQ players than Munster and Ulster. The majority of these imports are in the pack, while at the same time they have consistently exported backs - why is that?

The Great Aukster wrote:CONNACHT
Squad size: 49
Irish internationals: 3
Home grown: 22
Non-Irish qualified: 7 (Craig Clarke, Aly Muldowney, James So'oialo, Dan Parks, Nathan White, George Naoupu, Michael Swift)
Project: 2 (Rodney Ah You, Danie Poolman)

So that's 49 - 22 - 7 - 2 = 18 IQ players not home grown (37%)

LEINSTER
Squad size: 39
Irish internationals: 20 (two naturalised)
Home grown: 25
Non-Irish qualified: 3 (Jimmy Gopperth, Andrew Goodman, Zane Kirchner)
Project: 1 (Quinn Roux)

39 - 25 - 3 - 1 = 10 IQ players not home grown (26%)


MUNSTER
Squad size: 44
Irish internationals: 17
Home grown: 34
Non-Irish qualified: 2 (Casey Laulala, BJ Botha)
Project: 2 (CJ Stander, Gerhard van der Heever)

44 - 34 - 2 - 2 = 6 IQ players not home grown (14%)


ULSTER
Squad size: 38
Irish internationals: 17 (one naturalised)
Home grown: 27
Non-Irish qualified: 4 (John Afoa, Johann Muller, Ruan Pienaar, Nick Williams)
Project: 1 (Jared Payne)

38 - 27 - 4 - 1 = 6 IQ players not home grown (16%)


For all the plaudits given to the Leinster Schools system and their academy they are still having to import significantly more IQ players than Munster and Ulster. The majority of these imports are in the pack, while at the same time they have consistently exported backs - why is that?

 How many players out of the Leinster Schools system are in the other squads as IQ players not home grown?
How many Leinster Schools system players are in other squads as Irish internationals?
How many Leinster Schools system players are in still in Leinster and are full Irish internationals?
How does that compare to the other provinces?
I don't have the figures, but reckon these need to be factored in before we write off the Leinster Schools system altogether.

That's quite true.

3 hookers from Sa. nz, mun.

If you got strauss and cronin to play flanker you would have a full pack.

And 2 scrum halves.

All our niqs are outside backs too.

If you got cronin to play centre, (which he could) McCarthy to play 6 (which he does) and strauss to play 7 (which he used to)

You would be only short a winger for a full team that did not grow up in leinster

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:That's quite true.

3 hookers from Sa. nz, mun.

If you got strauss and cronin to play flanker you would have a full pack.

And 2 scrum halves.

All our niqs are outside backs too.

If you got cronin to play centre, (which he could)  McCarthy to play 6 (which he does) and strauss to play 7 (which he used to)

You would be only short a winger for a full team that did not grow up in leinster

Thats surprising. Looking at the size of the Leinster academy currently that percentage should fall steeply in the next year or so.

Wow, Bandwagon. Defensive much?

No-one's writing off any aspect of the Leinster underage system. But it's a fact that a quarter of the "Irish" (for want of a more accurate term) players in the Leinster squad are products of systems outside Leinster. It's also a fact that this is a substantially higher proportion than Munster or Ulster.

Over the last few years, Leinster have unarguably set the gold standard in performances on the pitch for Irish rugby, not to mention trophies. However, it's worth asking whether there's a correlation between that success and relying less on your academy than Munster or Ulster. Especially when people assume this success is a reflection of the success of the Academy. These numbers would suggest that straightforward assumption is a pretty flawed one.

Leinster have just been smart in their reaction to the reducing options for niq signings by signing players who are already Irish qualified in positions of weakness. i.e. Hooker. Scrum half and 2nd row mainly. TH Prop is a weakness for all the provinces so we have done all of us a favour there.

The point is not just developing possible players for Irish duty, but also having good squad players who may never trouble Irish squads but will not take up an NIQ slot either.

Looking at the players in question

Cronin
Redan
McCarthy
Boss

Were all Irish Internationals before we signed them. The last 2 brought in by Connacht and Ulster.

Ross

Would be in the category above but for the fact that he was not already capped before we signed him

Denton
Bent

2 players that we signed PURELY because they were already IQ. We took a punt on them and they will both be at least squad players for us. Hopefully Bent will be a bit more. Both out of contract at the end of this season so if they don't work out, no worries.

Dundon
Auva'a

These 2 guys were just playing AIL rugby in Ireland (Both Kiwis) and had already been here 3 years before we signed them. Good squad players. Dundon is perhaps the best lineout thrower in the squad.

Strauss

Project player and the first player to qualify and play for Ireland under the residency rule. nuff said.

Could you argue that they are all blocking the development of academy players? Possibly in some cases. But it is a balance and you have to play to the rules as they are written.

I am happy with Leinster's strategy with regard to these players in the main, and also with the way the academy is run.

There were 24 players in the academy last year. 23 this year. (One retired) We do seem to be churning out a fair few for export lately. Some may come back, some may not. It's all good.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Dundon
Auva'a

These 2 guys were just playing AIL rugby in Ireland (Both Kiwis) and had already been here 3 years before we signed them. Good squad players. Dundon is perhaps the best lineout thrower in the squad.

I would agree with you there and I think he's not too far behind in othere areas either. Looked very dynamic in the Pro12 games I saw him in last season and seemed a bit smarter than both Strauss and Cronin with the ball. Any prospect of him developing beyond Pro12 standard?

Don Alfonso wrote:Wow, Bandwagon. Defensive much?

No-one's writing off any aspect of the Leinster underage system. But it's a fact that a quarter of the "Irish" (for want of a more accurate term) players in the Leinster squad are products of systems outside Leinster. It's also a fact that this is a substantially higher proportion than Munster or Ulster.

Over the last few years, Leinster have unarguably set the gold standard in performances on the pitch for Irish rugby, not to mention trophies. However, it's worth asking whether there's a correlation between that success and relying less on your academy than Munster or Ulster. Especially when people assume this success is a reflection of the success of the Academy. These numbers would suggest that straightforward assumption is a pretty flawed one.

 Hey Don,  I might be a little smidgen defensive.  We've got 4 more 'non-home grown Irish' than Munster and Ulster.  And in that group of non-home grown there are a couple of interesting traits which highlight common issues in Leinster.
We don't produce players of height, so Denton and McCarthy are the recruitment of Irish players to cover this issue (Roux in as a project but also second row). The academy can teach a lot of things but it can't teach height.
Both of our main THs are also in the non-home grown bracket in Ross and Bent.  Again this is an issue area for the Leinster academy, but they have recruited Irish qualified players to cover this issue.  There needs to be a concerted effort at school and academy level to start stressing the importance of scrummaging and teaching better technique at a younger age.
Where the leinster system is doing very well is in backrow and backline products.  Tight five though is definitely an issue and the underage system needs to improve on this side of things.

Scrumhalf is a problem as well (for all provinces except Munster who have scrumhalfs (& hookers) coming out their ears. 

Can we stop all this 'Leinster has the best academy in the world/northern hemisphere' nonsense now please?

Submachine wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Dundon
Auva'a

These 2 guys were just playing AIL rugby in Ireland (Both Kiwis) and had already been here 3 years before we signed them. Good squad players. Dundon is perhaps the best lineout thrower in the squad.

I would agree with you there and I think he's not too far behind in othere areas either. Looked very dynamic in the Pro12 games I saw him in last season and seemed a bit smarter than both Strauss and Cronin with the ball. Any prospect of him developing beyond Pro12 standard?

ROG has been slagging Cronin on twitter recently about how 'the Schmidster' is a big fan of his and he will be starting soon.

If he's such a huge fan why does he prefer Strauss?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:We don't produce players of height, so Denton and McCarthy are the recruitment of Irish players to cover this issue (Roux in as a project but also second row). The academy can teach a lot of things but it can't teach height.

Eh? Don't you have the tallest player in world rugby!

Leinster have brought in Denton (6'6"), Roux (6'5"), and McCarthy (6'4"), yet at the same time let Alan O'Connor (6'5") go, and I'm not sure what's happened to Mark Flanagan (6'7") and Ben Marshall (6'5")? It's true you can't coach height, but the players who have come in compared to the homegrown ones aren't taller, yet obviously perceived to be "better". Maybe there haven't been any silk purses to appear in a while, but alternatively could there be coaching issues?

Sin é wrote:Scrumhalf is a problem as well (for all provinces except Munster who have scrumhalfs (& hookers) coming out their ears. 

Can we stop all this 'Leinster has the best academy in the world/northern hemisphere' nonsense now please?

 I wouldn't say scrumhalf is too big a problem any more.  Granted we needed to bring in Reddan and Boss (and there was Whitaker before those) but Cooney seems a solid HC level player and young McGrath has loads of upside (remember he started against osprey in a key game towards the end of last season).  Also what was that belvedere scrumhalf that is behind mcgrath, shanahan?, seems a solid player just unfortunate to come through as the same time as a talent like McGrath.

Sin, I promise not to claim Leinster as having the best academy in the world/northern hemisphere.  You won't stop me praising them when they produce talent though.

The Great Aukster wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:We don't produce players of height, so Denton and McCarthy are the recruitment of Irish players to cover this issue (Roux in as a project but also second row). The academy can teach a lot of things but it can't teach height.

Eh? Don't you have the tallest player in world rugby!

Leinster have brought in Denton (6'6"), Roux (6'5"), and McCarthy (6'4"), yet at the same time let Alan O'Connor (6'5") go, and I'm not sure what's happened to Mark Flanagan (6'7") and Ben Marshall (6'5")? It's true you can't coach height, but the players who have come in compared to the homegrown ones aren't taller, yet obviously perceived to be "better". Maybe there haven't been any silk purses to appear in a while, but alternatively could there be coaching issues?

O'Connor was never in the Squad at all. Flanagan (who is Toner's first cousin btw) is in Pro D2 in France and Ben Marshall is in the Leinster senior squad, having been promoted from the Academy along with
Jack O'Connell
Daren Hudson
Jordi Murphy
Martin Moore
Noel Reid

Flanagan looked decent to me before he got injured. Obviously the coaches did not agree. They see them every day and know better than you or I

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Dundon
Auva'a

These 2 guys were just playing AIL rugby in Ireland (Both Kiwis) and had already been here 3 years before we signed them. Good squad players. Dundon is perhaps the best lineout thrower in the squad.

I would agree with you there and I think he's not too far behind in othere areas either. Looked very dynamic in the Pro12 games I saw him in last season and seemed a bit smarter than both Strauss and Cronin with the ball. Any prospect of him developing beyond Pro12 standard?

ROG has been slagging Cronin on twitter recently about how 'the Schmidster' is a big fan of his and he will be starting soon.

He's a ticket that ROG but what has that got to do with Dundon?

The Great Aukster wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:We don't produce players of height, so Denton and McCarthy are the recruitment of Irish players to cover this issue (Roux in as a project but also second row). The academy can teach a lot of things but it can't teach height.

Eh? Don't you have the tallest player in world rugby!

Leinster have brought in Denton (6'6"), Roux (6'5"), and McCarthy (6'4"), yet at the same time let Alan O'Connor (6'5") go, and I'm not sure what's happened to Mark Flanagan (6'7") and Ben Marshall (6'5")? It's true you can't coach height, but the players who have come in compared to the homegrown ones aren't taller, yet obviously perceived to be "better". Maybe there haven't been any silk purses to appear in a while, but alternatively could there be coaching issues?

 I think there could be coaching issues with the tight five at younger levels.
Marshall is still around.  He did well in Leinster A and appeared a couple of times in the senior side in the second row and back row.
Flanagan I'm not so sure what happened there.  He seemed to be doing very well.  Then had time off for exams, then there was injury as well (was it back related).  It was strange to let him go, but hope the best for him.  Not sure about Alan O'Connor, haven't really followed/focused on him much.
I'd have hoped that big mal would look to get more involved in bringing through some youngsters in the second row.