5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August

First topic message reminder :

With England having won the series, I wonder what changes we will see to the teams.

England
The batting, barring Ian Bell, is misfiring. Too many times batsmen are getting in, but getting out for cameo scores. Prior is struggling a little with bat and gloves, but as the new boy and without a big innings, Jonny Bairstow is most at risk.
The wickets have been shared amongst the bowlers. Onions was unlucky to miss out at Chester-le-Street, but having now broken a finger is ruled out for two weeks. Monty's well publicised indiscretion will not endear him to the management and Steven Finn will probably be left to regain form and confidence with Middlesex. On his own ground, Chris Tremlett may get a run out, especially if they feel that Anderson or Broad need a rest.

all in all I suspect that changes are unlikely.


Australia
The good news is that they may have found an opening pair. The bad news is that the middle order is desperately fragile unless skipper Clarke scores runs. Khawaja and Smith are both batting at least two positions too high and unless he is able to bowl, Shane Watson looks a waste of a spot. Possible chances of recalls for Hughes or Cowan at 3 - and consideration has to be given to Faulkner lower down as an all-rounder.
Bowling has stood up well, but in another horses for course selection we may well see Starc replace Bird. Australia will be desperate for Harris to stay fit.




England have not played very well so far, especially the batters, yet are 3-0 up. Australia have shown they can compete but seem unable to win, even against a faltering team. If England can actually play well we could see a real thumping, but the money men at Ca will hope their team can sneak a win to create interest for the return series.

Looking forward to seeing Faulkner bat...he's down to bat 7, ive always thought he's a number 8, and no more, so will be good to see how he goes today.

Are we getting a full days play today?

KP_fan wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Craig


Not sure Woakes has quite strong enough fundamentals to be a front line Test bowler across a range of conditions. From what I've seen he's not quite as good as Bresnan, but better than Bopara at this level - he will be relying on his batting to keep him in the side, as if he proves good enough to bat at 6 he could have a role as a 4th seamer / batting all rounder similar to Watson for Aus.

Kerrigan? Well his FC record and form certainly suggest he is better than we saw yesterday, but it will be a big challenge for him to bounce back today and in the 2nd innings here.

   

Woakes is no less than Bresnan....his upside is higher IMO.......faster in speed, higher arm action which will get him more bounce.....juts lacking in exposure and backing of team management that Bresnan has had.

Nice Fishing!

Mark Ramprakash and Graeme Hick had incredible FC averages, it didn't matter when it came to playing for England. Woakes has been touted as a potential Test player for about 18 months, but Kerrigan came out of nowhere.

Start delayed by rain. Lucky Aussies, could be saved by the rain again just like at Old Trafford

Kerrigan and Woakes both have the potential to do a lot better than they did yesterday. I wonder how many people, knee-jerkers I like to call them, are already writing off their Test careers after one day. Isn't it pathetic?

Duty281 wrote:Kerrigan and Woakes both have the potential to do a lot better than they did yesterday. I wonder how many people, knee-jerkers I like to call them, are already writing off their Test careers after one day. Isn't it pathetic?

A certain G Boycott for one. Not that he is biased because his mate Bairstow was dropped for Woakes. Or against Lancashire's Simon Kerrigan.

Haha yeah, he really is bitter about this one

Twice yesterday I said that the media would ravage the two if they didn't play well. And this morning's papers are a sad confirmation of that. The media really does need a spanking.

Okay, it's really tipping it down here, I'm 5.6 miles away from the Oval.

Some people are mentioning it on Cricinfo, so here it is:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63565.html

Shane Warne's debut at the SCG v India. Figures of 1/150, before going on to become the greatest spinner of all time.

Tbf he came up against Ravi Shastri's career best knock, same as Kerrigan has done here with Watson.

The situations of Woakes and Kerrigan in this match are different.

Woakes has been around the international setup for a while, and his selection, while a bit left field was not entirely out of the blue - at some point we had to give him the chance in a Test to see whether his bowling was going to cause problems. Unfortunately for him this chance came on a very good batting track and against someone being very aggressive. He didn't start well but came back reasonably to cause a few issues, but he doesn't look to be quite quick and aggressive enough to be a serious threat on this type of track (but could maybe do a job on a more seam-friendly pitch). To be honest though, neither Broad nor Anderson really got on top of the batsmen, but they were able to exert more control.

Kerrigan was a complete 'out of the blue' selection, and seems to be a bit of a panic measure given Monty's recent indiscretion and therefore likely non-selection for the Aus tour. Clearly Swann will be the first choice spinner when fit, and there is little likelihood of us playing two spinners (Sydney on occasion it may be worthwhile), so it's really just a case of establishing who should be next in line. Kerrigan has had a pretty good summer, but the step up from Lancashire to an Ashes Test and particularly bowling on the first day on a road is huge for any young player. It's a big test of the young man's character to see whether he can come back from this - worst debut for an England spinner since our obsession with picking leggies?

I think what people don't seem to be understanding is how badly did
Kerrigan bowl yesterday. There are players who have had poor debuts and went on to do great things in international cricket. It took 4 tests for Marvan Atapattu to score his first test run, Sourav Ganguly was written off after a couple of ODIs before he made a glorious international comeback 4 years later, and there of course was Warney. But Kerrigan looked well out of his depth yesterday and he bowled like a village bowler. Failing to land a couple of balls every over can't be the problem of the pitch, you have to pitch it first so that the pitch could come into the frame!.
Not saying Kerrigan won't bounce back from this. But there is only so much that you could hide behind the debut facade. Whichever way you want to spin it, the reality is that he bowled atrociously for a test bowler no matter on debut or not. He shouldn't be written off just because of this one day of test cricket, but that doesn't mean there is any easy coverup for the horrible bowling performance he managed yesterday.

You just have to hope that the lads sat him down last night, went through everything with him, Swanny helped him with pointers on the pitch, and today (if we get any play) he gets a few solid overs in.

when chips are down for England..divine help appears

KP_fan wrote:when chips are down for England..divine help appears

Familiar with the phrase "bore off"? You have made this point over and over again, time to move on I think

VTR wrote:

KP_fan wrote:when chips are down for England..divine help appears

Familiar with the phrase "bore off"? You have made this point over and over again, time to move on I think

You forget......I made the point before it happened.
Now that it has happened......it's time for me to remind "Look I told you"  

so it's raining. good old bbc got it totally wrong again.  they were saying no rain until the 4th day. might as well not bother guessing really.

if the weather is up and down for a few days then aussie have to declare soon and see if they can skittle England.

KP_fan wrote:when chips are down for England..divine help appears

yes that's correct, England can control the weather

VTR wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Kerrigan and Woakes both have the potential to do a lot better than they did yesterday. I wonder how many people, knee-jerkers I like to call them, are already writing off their Test careers after one day. Isn't it pathetic?

A certain G Boycott for one. Not that he is biased because his mate Bairstow was dropped for Woakes. Or against Lancashire's Simon Kerrigan.

Really gets on my jubblies sometimes Boycott

Stopped raining for the first time all day just now...maybe we get play from half 1?

msp83 wrote:If Monty Panesar manages to get himself back mentaly ready, then he should certainly be the 2nd spinner for Australia. Panesar has a proven record and is a match-winner in spinning conditions, and on a good spinner's track that turns and offers bounce, he could be a touch better than Swanny who himself is absolute class on any track.

Disagree there, msp. You won't see a pitch like that in Australia this year , and I really don't rate Monty much outside the sub-continent even when he is bowling well. He was totally ineffective in NZ, for example.
Given his fragile mental state it would be crazy to take him to Australia - the crowds would slaughter him , and quite frankly the Australian players' confidence would probably get a lift too.
If Swann were to get injured (perish the thought !) I reckon they may as well play Tredwell , or just go with four seamers and Root.

I hope Monty can get his act together again , but even if he does I think he will be waiting for a trip to India or Pakistan to add to his Test caps. At least he doesn't look like being overtaken by Kerrigan any time soon...

Duty281 wrote:Some people are mentioning it on Cricinfo, so here it is:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63565.html

Shane Warne's debut at the SCG v India. Figures of 1/150, before going on to become the greatest spinner of all time.

Indeed . I saw that match. Shastri carved him up...in fact Warne himself was talking about it in sympathy with Kerrigan yesterday.
But I don't somehow expect Kerrigan to follow the same path from here  

Look , I agree we shouldn't write a man off after eight overs. But it wasn't just the rubbish he bowled ; it was the very limp , energy-lacking delivery , the lack of spin or serious intent... Sure nerves can hamper a bowler ; but that was as bad a performance as I can remember - and I go back a long way.
If he can bounce back from that , it will indeed show strength of character. And people say he can bowl much , much better , so i really hope he does. But I am afraid that he appears to have been selected very prematurely , and will almost certainly disappear back to his county for some time to regroup.
I hope he recovers better than Chris Schofield , another young spinner who was selected way too early. And who never did make it back.

KP_fan wrote:when chips are down for England..divine help appears

Well actually loss of time in the game just makes an England win less likely...since Australia already have 300 in the bank they can control an abbreviated match and England will be left playing just for a draw , something they don't really seem comfortable doing.
In a full five days , Oval Tests are not necessarily safe with a big first innings score : I refer you to Eng v Sri Lanka 1998 and Eng v SA 2003 as good examples of teams chasing well over 400 and going on to decisive wins.
But with much of a day at least lost to the weather , this sort of thing is rather less likely.

Duty281 wrote:275/3.

Wouldn't be surprised if England lost this Test to be frank, it's been flat from England all day.

OK : Who has kidnapped Duty ? Day one and talking likely defeat ? No...

Or have you and Trebell swapped identities ?  

Kick off at 230.

Rain probably means Australia have to bat long and bat once. Assuming we get the rest in, that probably means reaching 600 sometime tomorrow afternoon and sticking England in

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:275/3.

Wouldn't be surprised if England lost this Test to be frank, it's been flat from England all day.

OK : Who has kidnapped Duty ?   Day one and talking likely defeat ?  No...

Or have you and Trebell swapped identities ?  

Ah, we were just awfully flat in the field yesterday, and it didn't look like our hearts were in it. Most probable result will be a draw - I certainly wouldn't mind that.

Play to restart at 2:30. Australia will have to be more aggressive from the outset if they want to force a result, so that may play into England's hands.

Smith onto 72. If he gets a century then that is confirmation of how badly England have played

The BBC says:

"Australia coach Darren Lehmann's comments, describing Stuart Broad's failure to walk despite nicking a ball in the first Ashes test as "blatant cheating" and calling on the Australian public to "get stuck into him", are to be investigated by the International Cricket Council.

Lehmann may have contravened the ICC's code of conduct which forbids "inappropriate comment in relation to an incident occurring in an international match or any international player."

If found guilty, could be fined some or all of his match fee and, in extreme cases, suspended from future matches."

And so he should be.

You beauty Jimmy

Don't think you could accuse Broad of being "flat" yesterday !

That spell to Clarke was a masterpiece of coaxing life from a slow track.

Actually think they were only one wicket away from a decent day ,in those conditions. That Swann drop of Watson was a big moment...

One gone today ! Anderson has Siddle for about the sixth time this summer...

Peach from Jimmy. If Cook holds his catch yesterday, Aus are 140-4

yeah cook let the team down but it happens.

he has to bat properly now.  another failure and his contribution this summer is a bit poor really.

Think too much fuss about the Lehmann thing...OK was a stupid remark and Lehmann should know better - his mouth has got him in trouble before. But I suspect it was all intended as a bit of a joke.

These Aussie TV and radio types like to stir up things : I listened to an interview with Ryan Harris the other day , in which the radio chap (not a cricket person , just your all sport populist type ) really urged him into agreeing that he would like to target Stuart Broad's head in this Test Match...Harris did add that he was also after Swann's fingers  

Not really to be taken too seriously ; and I am pretty sure Stuart Broad won't be too bothered...

the aussies wanting to make Broad a villain is all a bit sad.  smacks of trying to take the attention off your own problems by creating a pantomime villain.

it's setting them up for a fall where he rips through them all winter creating more and more upset.

This on tms

"Damien Martyn, Ex-Australia batsman on Test Match Special
"Australia will be thankful they don't have to face Chris Tremlett in these conditions.""

yes it's an aussie having a dig but it's a point.  the selections were wierd.

Woakes on - needs to take his chance here , with conditions a bit more helpful.

And England need to break this pair up early , if they aspire to limit the Australian total to under 400.

Beats Haddin , but once again the ball is missing leg...has been rather the story of the match for the England seamers.

I was listening to Martyn on TMS yesterday, he isn't your typical biased Aussie. He's well-reasoned.

Broad has strayed to leg a bit too much today. When he has been at the off peg he has looked quite dangerous.

Woakes seems to be enjoying better bowling conditions today...some good balls past the bat.

But still just the night watchman out so far. The 450 plus still looking very much on. I'd have Anderson back at the other end pronto.

All set for a 5-for for Kerrigan then.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:All set for a 5-for for Kerrigan then.

in a dream world?

woakes getting blasted.  i'm not watching but I saw him look terrible in some games earlier this year.  seems he's kept that form going.

We're not looking likely to get wickets any other way. I can see the Aussies posting 500+ with our bowling as poor as it is.

Nah , Woakes is bowling reasonably well I reckon. Beaten the bat a few times . Just hasn't managed to nail one yet.
Certainly looks better than yesterday , albeit in more helpful conditions.

Review now for a leg side catch ? Off the hip , Prior got that one very wrong  

Total ballcocks from England again playing with zero intensity. Think I'll check the score at the end of Sunday to see how this ended up. Can't be bothered with such nonsense.

Good 100 from Smith

Entering damage limitation mode now

Trott remove Haddin

Was a big score there for Haddin

Well done Smith, huge well done to Trott

Smith hundred, Trott with a wicket. A joke of a Test match

golden arm Trott with the breakthrough! Well played Steve Smith, has played fantastically well.