Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

Hi folks not been around much lately due to new job and no access at work.
Digs I would avoid franchises and any long term property commitments connected to the business.
I very nearly bought into a coffee shop /café a few years ago and in the end it was the hours and time involved which put me off but the lad who bought it is flying .He will be open this morning and doing good business.Anything like that is all about position of course.One of the best businesses I have seen is a café bar in Bristol on the hill up to the Clifton area .opens at seven in the morning and closes at two in the morning.Change of menu and prices late afternoon and lighting /music for the evening trade.
Seen a few things in my new job with a large housing association providing social housing for the unwashed,unemployed,unfit,mentally ill,etc.One surprise is that they have properties and areas where only set religious groups are allowed to live.They call it 'creating communities'?
Hope all are well.

[mystiroakey]

Its stated bedroom tax.

This isn't a tax is it- just a cut in benefits..

It is kind of misleading to be honest.. Its just a cut in the amount given to people.. To be honest I should have known what it was beforehand. But when labour shout out that we will stop this 'immoral' bedroom tax.. It sounds like it could affect people.. No it's just tightening peoples budgets that can't afford stuff anyway!

[super_realist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24278768

     

[beninho]

In theory, there is nothing wrong with people in properties to big for them moving to smaller accommodation. Its just that as things stand it is not workable, as mentioned due to the lack of alternative properties. Its a badly thought out idea, designed to make them look strong against people on benefits. It had to be tweaked a fair few times before it started. Though from what i see, a lot of homes are taken up by older people. Who were made exempt, as do not want to pee off the potential voters..

[mystiroakey]

If the country has to make savings to reduce this trillion pound debt , we have to make cuts in benefits, foreign aid as well as everything else. And I think its time people understood that.

The government is stating with this 'tax'(not a tax but there you go) that sorry we have to give you less if you claim and have x amount of kids with the space..

There is nothing wrong with this. Yes many may have to downgrade, or get another/A job, or get there kids out working quicker.. But so what -99% need the push.

Exceptional cases like disabled etc will get sorted out

[mystiroakey]

In theory Benhio- these people won't actually have to move out

BUT instead just have to find some of the money to pay for their rent themselves-, In savings or earnings.

[MustPuttBetter]

Ben, when in a council property to get a bigger place you actually have to push quite hard for it. They're not just handed out. 'Hey have a 5 bedroom house'. It really doesn't work like that. Those people in bigger places than they need will have asked and asked for it.
Yes, it's unfortunate for them but we really are not talking about the poorest people in the country. We're talking about people who have used the system to get a property bigger than they need and then claimed state help paying for it.
The benefits system will never be perfect, and yes i'm sure this 'bedroom tax' causes a whole load of other issues. But it is at least fair. If there are going to make changes to the benefit system, trying to make it fair seems like a decent place to start to me.

As you say, no problem at all with us having differing views and i appreciate hearing your thoughts. Let's agree to disagree.

SJ, i haven't done any research on this but i would imagine the %age of people that have a spare room because a completely seperate and empty room is a necessity for housing medical equipment, who are not elderly exempt, is fairly small. Those people will also be on more state assistance than just housing benefit also. For those genuinely affected by this owing to medical reasons maybe this is a part of it that needs review. Maybe their other benefits need to be raised to compensate. It's not a perfect idea as i say, but that doesn't mean the whole premise of the bedroom tax is wrong

[mystiroakey]

Did it have to be on bedroom amounts though.

Maybe square footage would be the better weighting?

[beninho]

The thing is, that the people that they are asking to pay more money, are the people that have very little money anyway. These are people that have to claim housing benefit to pay towards their rent, because they cannot afford it another way. Usually on Jsa -£71pw or Maybe ESA - similar amounts i believe. Its taking money from the people with less, and the amount they are saving, is a drop in the ocean.

[super_realist]

The thing is, that the people that they are asking to pay more money, are the people that have very little money anyway. These are people that have to claim housing benefit to pay towards their rent, because they cannot afford it another way. Usually on Jsa -£71pw or Maybe ESA - similar amounts i believe. Its taking money from the people with less, and the amount they are saving, is a drop in the ocean.

Still doesn't explain why we ought to be paying for it.

[beninho]

The benefit cap...now i can understand that one, i think £500 a week is a reasonable amount, though it probably should have tiered amounts for different areas of the country. With Rents being so much more expensive in London and the south east.

[super_realist]

500 wouldn't get you much in anywhere other than some NE England toilet.

[MustPuttBetter]

I don't agree Ben, but then we're going to get into a discussion about people on benefits by choice, who could work but don't, living in a house bigger than they need, that they wouldn't be in if they had to pay for it themselves.
Let's just agree to disagree

[beninho]

£500...its pw, even in my borough the max that is paid is £346pw in HB. £500 will get you a pretty nice place in almost everywhere. Buts its capped at £500 for everything.

[mystiroakey]

The benefit cap...now i can understand that one, i think £500 a week is a reasonable amount, though it probably should have tiered amounts for different areas of the country. With Rents being so much more expensive in London and the south east.

The bedroom tax is actually much fairer tbh. And incorporates a tiered system anyway. Because its exclusive of capping in monetary terms. They are saying it doesn't matter how much it costs - but if you have x amount of bedrooms you will only get that minus a percentage.. I take it HB claimants get more in more expensive parts of the country as it stands anyway?

[mystiroakey]

£500...its pw, even in my borough the max that is paid is £346pw in HB. £500 will get you a pretty nice place in almost everywhere. Buts its capped at £500 for everything.

500 a week cap on benefits.. You are joking- You think we should pay these people 2166 quid a month!!

[beninho]

Mr MPB, the world would be a boring place if everyone agreed. I would never force my views on to someone else. So happy to agree to disagree.

I do agree there is people that work the benefits system for their own benefit, though this is a minority. But it tars it for a lot of people that do have a need for help and assistance.

[super_realist]

Ah, £500 a WEEK, thought you meant 500 a MONTH,

Yeah, £500 a week would get a very nice place.

[mystiroakey]

"I do agree there is people that work the benefits system for their own benefit, though this is a minority"


This is the problem- Its actually the majority that work the benefits system not the minority

[MustPuttBetter]

Exactly Mysti, and that's the point. What a sum of money. Makes you wonder why you bother to work right?

[mystiroakey]

To take home 2166 a month you have to earn 10k over the national average salary. That makes me sick tbh..

[super_realist]

To take home 2166 a month you have to earn 10k over the national average salary. That makes me sick tbh..

Basically equals £34000 a year salary.

[mystiroakey]

oh and they also don't pay for dental or prescriptions- so add on another couple of grand a year on that take home as well

[MustPuttBetter]

More like 38k Super
I earn 41k a year and take home £2400 net a month

[beninho]

The 500pw cap, does only have an impact on a small amount in most areas i believe. But yep it is still a lot of money. Though its hard to say who does or does not deserve assistance. If you are unable to work due to illness or injury, why should you not receive assistance, to help with your family living costs? Not saying everyone should receive assistance, but to get the full £500 you would need to be in pretty extreme circumstances.

[SmithersJones]

SJ, i haven't done any research on this but i would imagine the %age of people that have a spare room because a completely seperate and empty room is a necessity for housing medical equipment, who are not elderly exempt, is fairly small. Those people will also be on more state assistance than just housing benefit also. For those genuinely affected by this owing to medical reasons maybe this is a part of it that needs review. Maybe their other benefits need to be raised to compensate. It's not a perfect idea as i say, but that doesn't mean the whole premise of the bedroom tax is wrong

But the number of people with 'too many rooms' is small anyway, and the amount of saving that this pathetic measure will generate is miniscule. The whole perception of the benefit system, number of illegal claimants and cost to the taxpayer is completely skewed by our crappy news media in order to wind people up. If they're lucky, the bedroom tax will save £500m per year, but will cost £150m+ to enforce. If they're unlucky, it will cost money as people end up moving into more expensive, private accommodation with the requisite number of bedrooms. Vodafone got let off paying £6bn in tax. As our transatlantic cousins say, you do the math.

[mystiroakey]

would it have to be extreme- or would you just need to pop out 5 kids and you are there?

[super_realist]

Sounds like you are being robbed somewhere then. MPB
According to Salary Calculator 38000 should get you 2388 a month.
34000 should give you £2161

41k should get you £2588 a month after deductions.

Not sure if you have to make your own pension contributions, life insurance, student loans, private healthcare/medical or other deductions which is making the  difference, but that's less than you should get based on 41k

[mystiroakey]

He probably pays into a pension scheme SR

[MustPuttBetter]

Both my wife and I work 35 hours a week every week.

My net monthly pay is 2400. My wife's is 1500. Total 3800.
Out of that petrol getting to and from work is 500ish. Net 3300.

Out of that I pay an 1100 a month mortgage and 1125 a month on child care to look after our little girl whilst we're at work.

So a net net of £1075 a month to spend on food and fun.
That's without factoring in dental, work clothes, wear and tear on the car and other stuff I wouldn't have to pay if unemployed.

Or.....I could just sit at home and do f-all for 2100 a month.

I'm going to have a rethink!

[MustPuttBetter]

That's true, there is the £90 into the pension scheme!

[mystiroakey]

I have worked out however you try you can't play the system perfectly(unless you are rich!!- and then the accountants probably take a lot of your savings anyway!!)). To get out of paying high end tax and NI I have to pay myself around 7.5k a year as a salary and take the rest in Dividends!

My 48k a year on average over my last two financial years is actually NET, but the banks rate it Gross when given me a mortgage amount! If i cleared almost 4k a month in another job I could almost double my mortgage amount!!

[super_realist]

90 a month? barely worth it

[MontysMerkin]

See it's working. You are all discussing the 'low end' of the market. Trying to save comparatively trivial amounts from the bottom of the pile. Why not make the savings from the top end? The media or people in power do not want this to happen as it directly affects them. So all we do is go round and round belittling people less fortunate than ourselves. I'm no saint but it doesn't take a genius to work it out, surely. There is a massive pot of money out there, a lot hidden from view, that could be used to help the disenfranchised of this country, but through bad decision making and spin, we end up being the ones to pay for it and being constantly encouraged to blame those further down the ladder.

[super_realist]

They are saving it from the other end too. My personal allowance has reduced in terms of the point where 40% tax comes in. So I pay more tax than I did last year.

Everyone has to do their bit.

[MontysMerkin]

Think Star Trek had it right all along. The Shat rules!

[mystiroakey]

What is the low end of the market monty.

Someone that earns 40k a year(clears 2400) of it and has a family alongside someone that clears close to the same money in the same situation that doesn't work??

Or just the later!

Its about fairness

[MustPuttBetter]

Ha cheers!
If I pay 2.5% my firm pay 5% on top so 7.5% overall is just about worth it. £3k into my pension per year. Better than nothing and all I can afford for now matey!

[beninho]

you could sit at home, but you wouldnt get £2100 to do so. You would get £920 to pay your rent on a 2 bed property. Appx £272 for tax credits, and £312 for your JSA. So that should give you £584 a month for food, clothes, bills etc. Probably do able, but not easily. May have to knock the golf though.

[super_realist]

Wow, I feel really lucky, my company pay 25% and I don't have to pay any.

[mystiroakey]

Wow, I feel really lucky, my company pay 25% and I don't have to pay any.

Oil tycoon ^

But still a slave

[super_realist]

Wow, I feel really lucky, my company pay 25% and I don't have to pay any.

Oil tycoon ^

But still a slave

Not really Oakey, unless everyone who works is a slave.

[mystiroakey]

you could sit at home, but you wouldnt get £2100 to do so. You would get £920 to pay your rent on a 2 bed property. Appx £272 for tax credits, and £312 for your JSA. So that should give you £584 a month for food, clothes, bills etc. Probably do able, but not easily. May have to knock the golf though.

But you could still work 16 hours a week on that couldn't you? and earn more than 2100

[MontysMerkin]

People from deprived areas with little education and/or aspirations. Not sure many people on benefits clear 2400 a month? Would be interesting to see some figures on that though! I suppose if you factor in housing and everything then you could get close in some areas of the country (SE). However being on benefits (I've been there!) is no picnic. This is the problem you see - this earning 40K to get the same as someone on benefits is not their fault! It is the fault of the system. But what do we do - euthanasia? No we make it so that a person who works hard doesn't get their goolies taxed off.

[beninho]

You could work 16 hrs a week, yes, but that would then see your JSA decrease. Though thats now changing the whole, i could sit on my arris and get loads of cash scenario.

[mystiroakey]

A pension to me seems completely pointless tbh. Its all about property. Because When you need it at least any rental income received on it will be inflation rated..

I have thought about it but it truly is pointless to me.. I am sure you would rather take that 25% yourself SR. I mean you are still being taxed on that payment aren't you?

[MontysMerkin]

I think SR has hit the nail on the head - record profits, huge benefits for their workers (prob another tax write off for them), it is really helping the country get back on it's feet. But not your fault SR - you'd have to be a loony to turn it down. But I think you get the point?

[mystiroakey]

I think SR has hit the nail on the head - record profits, huge benefits for their workers (prob another tax write off for them), it is really helping the country get back on it's feet. But not your fault SR - you'd have to be a loony to turn it down. But I think you get the point?

They could just pay the workers the 25% in extra salary. That would truly sort him and others like him out more!

[MustPuttBetter]

I'm sure I could squeeze a couple of extra hundred out if the cap is £500 a week. There must be other stuff to claim.
If I could stretch it up to 1k a month better getting that for playing golf than working!

Do those JSA and other figures includes my wife's claim too?

[MustPuttBetter]

Super, 25% = wow

[mystiroakey]

The companies that pay all these pensions just have major cash flow as a result- they are basically just deferring payment to the employee.

Ever heard of the pension fund issues?

Imagine what he could do with that extra 25% each month!!

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