What the hell?

First topic message reminder :

Jean de Villiers earlier in the week announced that he believes SARU must ban selections of Overseas players. I fully agree with him on that. Many South African supporters believe it will be the wrong move as it will weaken the Springboks, yes I agree in the short term it will, but long term we have no choice, players are leaving us in droves, it is like a bloody exodus at the moment as players can earn more money overseas and due to the weak Rand it is becoming increasingly easier to lure them at young ages.

The Western Force has copped onto this and will already have four South Africans in their squad next year for Super Rugby.

Now news 24 has come out to report another two players are in the sights of the Force.

News 24 wrote:Super Rugby – News24 Australian Super Rugby outfit, the Force, are eager to lure more Western Province players to Perth for next season. They recently signed WP centre Marcel Brache and prop Chris Heiberg as part of their renewed focus on developing alternate avenues for selecting players. According to Die Burger’s website, the Australians are now also after promising youngsters, fullback/flyhalf Dillyn Leyds and prop Francois van Wyk. Kevin Foote, a former Ikeys coach who will be assistant coach at the Force next year, confirmed that they have offered the WP duo contracts. Leyds – a former Baby Bok – is currently part of the WP Under-21 side, while Van Wyk was part of WP’s Vodacom Cup squad earlier this year. Foote said the offers are only for one year. “It’s a very good opportunity for them. They could always return,” said Foote. The Force also have South Africans, Sias Ebersohn (flyhalf) and Wilhelm Steenkamp (lock), on their books.

This is becoming pretty pathetic if you ask me.

I have been told on this site a number of times that these south African senior players add value not only in playing quality, but also in sharing their experience and knowledge with these clubs.

We all know about the attempts to lure players young enough to qualify on residence to represent their adopted countries if they are good enough.

We have already seen Jake White openly declaring the University of Canberra has a program to lure young South Africans to university for the purpose of representing the Brumbies and Australia.

Now the Western Force has joined the party.

What have we now simply become the production line for everyone and his dog to build squads?

Are there no development tools and structures in place to develop their own talent?

Or are they simply too lazy to develop talent for themselves.

I know this is a rant, but FFS, when is enough, enough, when is there going to be a saturation point in all this.

Biltong wrote:Aukster we have more professional pllayers overseas than we have in South africa, I have no issue with a player playing overseas, after all, it is your choice who you decide to work for.

However the point is, how many players do you think you need to invest development, time and money into, to create the 200 plus professionals who ply their trade overseas?

My point is why pay to create 200 surplus professionals in the first place?

Assuming there is a finite pot of money available and that most of the player exodus is for financial reward, then the answer is simple - pay more to the ones you want to keep and less to the rest.

Biltong it seems that the problem isn't that there isn't sufficient depth in South African it's that you have more players capable of playing pro rugby at a high level than you have opportunities for them to be in top class sides.

Why stay when you have the chance to go overseas and make better money for the same job? You accept this fact but at the same time, you don't. What would you do? I love my country but I know if I had the chance to see the world and earn good money elsewhere I would jump at the chance to see the world a bit. This hasn't weakened South African rugby, South African rugby is still incredibly strong, the main problem I see with it is taking opportunities away from players in the countries they go to.

I think that you're wrong to think overseas players can't be used, once we get a global season sorted out there really is no reason why not. Wanting to get out in the world and experience life doesn't necessarily equal not having passion for your country and your national side. Neither does looking for financial security for your family in a career which is always one tackle gone wrong away from permanent retirement make you some kind of mercenary.

I don't think we will agree on this Notch.

I have a problem with overseas players playing for my country. It seemingly doesn't matter to you.

Biltong wrote:I have a problem with overseas players playing for my country. It seemingly doesn't matter to you.

I didn't think there were overseas players in the South African side?

I don't have a problem with guys born outside Ireland playing for Ireland at all, but I do believe the residency period should be closer to seven years instead of three. If that was the case you wouldn't get players moving just to qualify for the national side as the time investment would just be too long. But so long as it is three years, yeah we should definitely be picking eligible players. I hope the rules are changed to make it harder to qualify on residency but we have to live in the real world in the meantime. No point leaving out good eligible players when our rivals won't be doing the same.

My main disagreement with you is you're being harsh on players for making perfectly understandable career moves that wouldn't be condemned in any other profession. I have my own ideals but I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend it's still the amateur era. In a short, risky and unstable career players have to make choices to provide for their families and their future. You have to say, fair play to them. If I was a rugby player my dream would be to represent my nation and my province but thats not the only consideration for a career. I don't think moving overseas necessarily means that they are giving up on their dream, or that playing for their national side doesn't mean anything to them.

No, I am not being harsh on players choosing to play overseas. i fully comprehend why they do it.

I just don't think it is right that they represent SA when there are capable players at home.

Biltong wrote:No, I am not being harsh on players choosing to play overseas. i fully comprehend why they do it.

I just don't think it is right that they represent SA when there are capable players at home.

Do you think that not selecting overseas South African players would stop players moving abroad?

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:No, I am not being harsh on players choosing to play overseas. i fully comprehend why they do it.

I just don't think it is right that they represent SA when there are capable players at home.

Do you think that not selecting overseas South African players would stop players moving abroad?

it will never stop, but hopefully those selected to represent SA will serve their country like Habana did before they leave and not like Juandre Kruger after 12 tests.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:No, I am not being harsh on players choosing to play overseas. i fully comprehend why they do it.

I just don't think it is right that they represent SA when there are capable players at home.

Do you think that not selecting overseas South African players would stop players moving abroad?

it will never stop, but hopefully those selected to represent SA will serve their country like Habana did before they leave and not like Juandre Kruger after 12 tests.

That's a point I think most of us in the same situation would agree on. It annoys me when foreign clubs are trying to be young welsh players too.

What about SA selecting residency-qualified players like Mtawarira?

Cyril wrote:What about SA selecting residency-qualified players like Mtawarira?

Mate Mtwarira played Craven week in SA, he is as much a product of SA as he is of Zimbabwe.

But, as I have said before Zim could have done with him. I need to be careful what I say about not having Mtwarira, because it can be construed as xenophobic.

You never know what is lurking behind the computer screens.  

More News.

News 24 wrote:SA Rugby The South African Rugby Union (SARU) wants Jaque Fourie to again be available for Springbok selection. A top-level source at SARU told the Cape Times that they are in discussions with Fourie’s Japanese club, Kobe Steelers, to release him for international duty. It could be in time for the Boks’ Rugby Championship tour to Australasia, but a more realistic date may be the end-of-year tour to Europe. “We are still negotiating (with his club for the tour of Australia and New Zealand), but things are a bit relaxed now because the guys are on tour,” the source revealed. “Hopefully he can play on the end-of-year tour.” Fourie, 30, signed a two-year deal with the Steelers last year and said at the time he would not be available to play for the Springboks during his time in Japan. But SARU is hoping to lure him back the same way they did with scrumhalf Fourie du Preez, whose Japanese club, Suntory Sungoliath, agreed released him for the home games in the Rugby Championship. The last of Fourie’s 69 Tests came in the 2011 Rugby World Cup quarter-final loss to Australia in Wellington, New Zealand.

WTF is it with Heyneke Meyer?

We complained when PDV didn't want to let go of players at the twilight of their careers and there were younger better players around, now Meyer is taking the cake.

This is truly pathetic.

Agree mate, send a message, ostracise them don't court them!! I agree with everything you're saying. Breed a culture of 100% commitment not 50-50 have your cake and eat it to mentality.

Thought Englabracht had given a good showing so far in the internationals this year...

There's the danger of cutting your nose off to spite your face with this one.

We will now be known as the Bokbarians, every player may where his club's socks, this way we get to be the most popular international team, almost like the British and Irish Lions, just less in fighting, I think.

Biltong wrote:We will now be known as the Bokbarians, every player may where his club's socks, this way we get to be the most popular international team, almost like the British and Irish Lions, just less in fighting, I think.

Bill the way things are going it is only a matter of time before the best players are all playing for Japanese, French or English clubs.

It is how we all deal with that which will be interesting.

Biltong wrote:We will now be known as the Bokbarians, every player may where his club's socks, this way we get to be the most popular international team, almost like the British and Irish Lions, just less in fighting, I think.

By the way just saw Botha getting a flight to Buenos Aires at Nice International...!

A bit late into this thread Biltong, but I'll chuck my 2c worth in.

I can understand why the Aussies need to recruit rugby players. To improve out game we need fresh blood who's interested in rugby. As already been stated many times before rugby's 4th or 5th ranking in Oz, behind rules/league/soccer and even baseball/basketball now, where they're getting a strong following, note the decline of our cricket squad. Youngsters who shows sporting potential will naturally vear towards sports that'll give them kudos and/or heapsa bucks, and that's not rugby. It's only played in the 12 GPS schools and we have no internal league setup to speak of, under the super 15s, so there's just not enough new comers with rugby brains coming thru.

I know it sucks, and I wish we had a stronger rugby base to draw from, but I guess that's the way it's going. we've all said there's not enough players in Oz to have 5 sides, we should've stuck to 3 sides.

My 2c worth in this debate

The solution for the SA. is simple,make it clear only homebased players will be selected for Boks.Yes stiffen the residency to 5 years as a deterrent agreed but OZ has traditionally used
many Nz born players.Also formerly vice versa for Nz players like Des Connor for example played as many times for Nz as Oz.For the ill informed THE best all round 9 I`ve seen in my long lifetime.With the RWC only 2years away will Kaino,Kahui and MBW[oops sorry SBW]return to Nz

The only real solution is the hard one to make.

SA produces to many top players for five teams.  Realisicly they sould have 12 teams like England.

They want to be in the 4N but need the money from Europe.

SA will have to run its own league not the conference rubbish proposed.  They have to generate and keep the money in house like the NH does for their leagues.

They then will have to bite the bullet and join European competions. I actually think from a marketing point of veiw it is better for SA as it is getting into the EU market.  Money wise they will earn more then super rugby.

SA can then do an EPS to keep the top 3 for each position in SA to compete with higher wages that is becoming to big of a lure. You cant expect people to turn down double the wages just to maybe hsve a chance to play. They can earn enough in the few years to cover bad injury later so why would they not take it.

It leaves Aus and NZ kind of high and dry but if SA dont they could end up facing money issues like their fellow SANZAR unions.
I think Aus and NZ have shown they need SA money and who knows if Europe will take SA if their top players aren't at home in 5years time. Also they would bring balance to the forces in Europe.

Will the quality of SA rugby suffer much if/when they leave the SANZAR partnership?

Just a question, is the 'large' sum of money that we hear SA rugby generates from domestic TV rights? Would this remain the case if SA broke away or would the 'product' be watered down and thus be worth less?

Lastly, wouldn't getting in bed with Europe make the exodus of players from SA worse?

How many South Africans will show up to watch South Africa play Scotland or Italy or England ? Very few...look at the recent series. 

The All Blacks are the biggest brand in the world and the traditional rivalry between the best side in the world and South Africa is what generates the revenue.

ebop wrote:Will the quality of SA rugby suffer much if/when they leave the SANZAR partnership?

Just a question, is the 'large' sum of money that we hear SA rugby generates from domestic TV rights?  Would this remain the case if SA broke away or would the 'product' be watered down and thus be worth less?

Lastly, wouldn't getting in bed with Europe make the exodus of players from SA worse?

Ebop, that question has been asked numerous times before.

I don't think the quality will be affected to be honest. When you look at our Currie Cup (Without the Boks) the quality is still very high, the game plans are still very different, teams retain their core plan at those levels as well, it is a fallicy that our game will become slower if we don't play Super Rugby.

I mean think about it, has our game gotten faster in the last 20 years? No, it hasn't. Besides it is isolation that hurt our rugby, we were shut off from it.

By still playing Rugby Championship we still expose ourselves to NZ rugby. Only not at Super Rugby level. Usually when the questioned is asked it is always directed at how will it affect SA, the 180 degree on the question is how will it affect NZ and OZ?

Ebop, ultimately you need not worry, SARU doesn't have the cahonies to leave Super Rugby.

Yes biltong, I think a split would hurt us no doubt and i hope it doesnt happen. But i follow why you may want to. But you mention that the RC would remain but s15 wouldn't. How does that work, they're mutually inclusive under SANZAR aren't they? If SA opt out its over isn't it.

No they aren't mutually inclusive.

Look, a split will hurt all three countries, I have always liked the fact that Super Rugby is what the name suggests, Super.

But with all the expansion it has now come down to just another club competition, hence me believing if you have a closed conference system in each country it can double as the main internal domestic competition and the qualifier for the top Super teams.

This way we take nothing away from the quality of the inter conference clashes and Currie Cup and ITM Cup is more on the front page.

If this system continues to grow in the haphazard manner it is currently growing it affect SA and NZ as OZ requires more players they will come knocking on our doors, the fact that they need not spend money on developmental structures the way we have to means they can buy our better players and spend the money on them.

I am also totally opposed to allowing entrance to any other country bar Argentina.

If we start bringing in America, Japan etc, it will simply be a case of spreading Sa and NZ talent even thinner as these countries will come knocking on our doors for quality players.

The knock on effect will not be good.

ebop wrote:Yes biltong, I think a split would hurt us no doubt and i hope it doesnt happen. But i follow why you may want to. But you mention that the RC would remain but s15 wouldn't.  How does that work, they're mutually inclusive under SANZAR aren't they? If SA opt out its over isn't it.

There is no way that if SA left S15 that they would be kicked out of the 4N simple because even if Aus and NZ were to play each other four times (with or without Argentina) how big would the crowds get.
As it is NZAR are having to play 4 AIs and extra game on top of the 4N and we may see both of them add a fourth match to the summer tours such as the Scotland game last year.
SA on the other hand are currently playing just the 12 games a year compared to 14/15 for the others.

As the English and French will tell you intercountry club competitions are just an added bonus.

SA has the money to pay 50 players top up money esp if they added 2 extra games.  NZ is already losing the battle to keep the rising generation of AB and have had to pay their two stars money to not play just so they wouldn't lose them.  With no S15 esp no SA money where would that leave NZAR trying to fight the player drain.

If SA did leave S15 how would NZAR fund 4 top teams. If they can't fund four teams they will have to have overseas players in their team which then removes their only trump card.

Brendon if SA left Super XV, there won't be any need to fund four top teams. You already have these players contracted for Currie Cup, you will be able to use the portion of funding from the rugby championship to pay them more without having any additional travel expenses etc.

On anohter note.

Here is exactly why I am against overseas players.

Toulon has now demanded Habana come earn his pay check this weekend as the Boks have a bye this weekend.

So whilst Meyer and his charges go to OZ and continue to prepare for the match on the 7th, Habana has to fly to France to go "earn" his paycheck and then fly back to OZ.

Nice way to prepare for a test, eh?

What real impact will this have on the boks? For me I'm not so sure its a bad thing. Who are the overseas boks in the team currently...

Kruger at 5... Could be vital as we have no one else at test class now that Bekker is off to Japan also.

Louw at Openside.... important but only because Meyer refuses to pick Brussow.

Morne at 10..... Goosen, Lambie, Jantjies, Catrakilis.... position well covered.

Habana at 11.... could be the time to put Frans Hougaard permenently into the 11 position... He has the gas and the al-round skills.

So at a shortterm and current viewpoint I don't think it will be an issue if it was enforced. In the longterm they have to do something to keep the talent inside SA.

The haemorraging rand is not doing players any favours. Contracts 2 years ago are worth perhaps 33% less compared to Euro contracts. If you look at the rand in 2011 it was 10.3 to the Euro... now its 13.7. For a 500K eur contract that means the rand equivelent has gone forrom 5.2MM rand to 6.9MM rand... a full 1.7MM rand jump alone... this is surely one of the reasons why SA franchises are being priced out.... what was competitive 2 years ago is not even close now.

1.7MM rand is big money in SA.

In terms of solutions, the ban will help. but players won't like it. How is SA going to not only keep their best 30-40 players but most importantly the next 40 which tend to leave quicker and youngsters like CJ Stander and the Ebersohn twins.

Money is the way forward, France, Japan, England etc, they aren't going to drop their salaries soon... in fact arently England clubs asking to raise their caps as they can afford more and want to compete with France for the best players?

SA needs to see how they can increase funding throughout their entire professional setup. Teams like WP, the Bulls etc they have a massive fan base and sell everything from personalised braai's, bikes, cars.. almost anything you can think of... they have saturised the market from their fans.
Ticket sales are almost without doubt the highest in the world albeit prices are very very cheap... perhaps 1/4 of the price in Europe.

I think SA need to re-negotiate their SR contract in terms of revenue generated and revenue received... SA is the biggest contributor and only gets an equal share. AUS and NZ do nothing to advertise or invest in SA rugby infrastructure and TV yet they get part of this share.
I can't see where else they will get additional revenue.