Where would Alonso go?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/23761323

I'm not surprised Ferarri are denying this, it would cause uproar. They're in a tough position though; Massa is so demoralised and inconsistent that the second car is pointless, but why change him if they can't put a competitive driver in there?

Two competitive drivers would be good for them but one of them can't be Alonso. Personally I think having a true team always comes first and I'd bring in Raikonnen and be in the market for a second good driver to run on equal terms.

Perhaps Alonso could go to McLaren and revitalise their effort; sadly I fear Button looks bereft of inspiration these days (though how he'd feel about Perez is another thing!).

I'm surprised Kimi would want to go back to Ferrari, unless they can provide him with a competitive car.

The Lotus he's driving right now is superior to the machines Alonso & Massa have to work with.

He's obviously forgotten his last season at Ferrari when he skulked around in midfield most races, only putting on a quick burst at the end to remind everyone he was still there...before going off to eat ice cream in his trailer...


As for Alonso, unless he's mellowed a bit and no longer minds some serious competition, he could stay where he is. Alternatively, as you suggest, he might consider a return to McLaren. Perez isn't looking quite the hot ticket he seemed earlier in the season and Button, while outscoring his younger team mate, isn't exactly pulling up trees.

Only thing that might put Fernando off is that the team's technical department seem to have lost the plot, as far as car development goes.

Alonso will be at Ferrari next season - I am pretty sure of that. Massa will be the one to move on and a driver such as Sky suggested today (Hulkenberg) will take his place.

Fernando would be stupid to leave Ferrari on his lucrative contract. No guarantee, under new regulations/engines that RB will be the strongest team. Hulkenberg has already has discussions with Lotus but I think he could easily end up at Ferrari replacing Massa.

I think Sky got their predictions spot on for the main team line-ups next year. For those who never saw it then these were:-

Red Bull - Vettel and Ricciardo

Mercedes - Unchanged

Ferrari - Alonso and Hulkenberg

Lotus - Unchanged

McLaren - Unchanged

Yeah, it could well look like that but it's the Kimi situation which is throwing me. Kimi is a risk-taker, he knows what he wants and knows how he's going to get it. He can't be trusted by Lotus to resign and will be ruthless in determining his future. This is the guy who basically said that he didn't see his future or comeback in F1 to be too long before he got bored again. He wants one more WDC and then it's out of there. Lotus are simply not good enough and don't match Kimi's ability, ruthlessness to win and finances to build and develop a title winning car nowadays. He has to move, even force it, in an attempt to move to a geniune title winning car or team and that's either Red Bull, Ferrari or McLaren, who will be back amongst the pack next year. I can see something happening with Kimi and this is a big moment for him in his career and achieving his goals.

I wouldn't back against him staying at Lotus. Yes he wants another title but frankly he has more chance of that at Lotus than at Red Bull or Ferrari. Both those teams clearly operate their team with a driver set-up where one driver has to play rear gunner for the top dog and Vettel and Alonso would be that top dog at those teams. McLaren may be an option but I'd say that is unlikely.

John makes a fair bit of sense, re Kimi's character and motivations.

Obviously he didn't come back just to make up the numbers. Moves to Red Bull and Ferrari would seem to be a non-starter, as both teams already have similarly-minded and similarly able drivers.

So either Lotus will have to up their game for next season...or McLaren will have to undergo a major transformation. Can't rule anything out but the former seems more likely.

Haven't Lotus just had a new financial powerhouse buy into the team? I am sure I recall hearing something about that a couple of months ago? Ah found the link:-

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/06/new-investor-group-buys-35-stake-in-lotus-f1-team/

So perhaps that gives them some financial clout to make the car more competitive. It is not like Lotus are a million miles away in any case and at least at Lotus he knows the team will bend over backwards for him.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wouldn't back against him staying at Lotus. Yes he wants another title but frankly he has more chance of that at Lotus than at Red Bull or Ferrari. Both those teams clearly operate their team with a driver set-up where one driver has to play rear gunner for the top dog and Vettel and Alonso would be that top dog at those teams. McLaren may be an option but I'd say that is unlikely.

Red Bull really don't. They told Vettel to stay behind Webber, remember?

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wouldn't back against him staying at Lotus. Yes he wants another title but frankly he has more chance of that at Lotus than at Red Bull or Ferrari. Both those teams clearly operate their team with a driver set-up where one driver has to play rear gunner for the top dog and Vettel and Alonso would be that top dog at those teams. McLaren may be an option but I'd say that is unlikely.

Red Bull really don't. They told Vettel to stay behind Webber, remember?

Yes but with how much heart though? Vettel disobeyed team orders and nothing was done about it. Tells me that Red Bull weren't really that fussed about it. That link you posted yesterday gives you the idea of what type of driver they are looking for hence why it isn't going to be Kimi.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wouldn't back against him staying at Lotus. Yes he wants another title but frankly he has more chance of that at Lotus than at Red Bull or Ferrari. Both those teams clearly operate their team with a driver set-up where one driver has to play rear gunner for the top dog and Vettel and Alonso would be that top dog at those teams. McLaren may be an option but I'd say that is unlikely.

Red Bull really don't. They told Vettel to stay behind Webber, remember?

Yes but with how much heart though? Vettel disobeyed team orders and nothing was done about it. Tells me that Red Bull weren't really that fussed about it. That link you posted yesterday gives you the idea of what type of driver they are looking for hence why it isn't going to be Kimi.

Well, it was pretty much exactly the formula as when Webber was told to stay behind Vettel, disobeyed, and wasn't punished.

There was only one difference in the two events; Mark didn't make the pass. Tried bloody hard though.

So are you suggesting that Webber (at any other team) would have been a No.1 type driver at say Ferrari/McLaren/Mercedes? Certainly not now and he never has been a No.1 team driver at a top team as his F1 career record does kind of show. As far as F1 drivers go I'd put Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg and Raikonnen ahead of him and all as team leaders before Webber. That alone tells us he is not star material driver. He has voiced grievances about mistreatment from time to time at Red Bull so perhaps he has deluded himself of his potential or that he believes he is in a contract of equal treatment which hasn't been upheld. In any case he has been in decline now for perhaps the last year or two and been problematic. Going by various reports in the press Red Bull want a more sub-serviant replacement (one that will more willingly play rear gunner without making too much fuss - a sheep if you will) so clearly Kimi is not that man and apparently Ricciardo is.

Clearly, how teams see themselves determines their driver line-up. Teams at the head of the field with the fastest cars/best package go with a major point getter as a lead driver with a support driver known to be quick but not with ambitions to be top dog. We see that at Red Bull and Ferrari and to a lesser degree at Lotus. McLaren had the same policy in recent decade or more but just now they are so short of points they just want points wherever they come from. Mercedes are striving to hit the big time in F1 so went for an all-round strong two drivers to maximise point taking knowing their all-round package may not match-up yet to the Red Bulls of this world. As for the lesser teams they will take who they can get with some teams now going for drivers who can bring big sponsorship money to the team.

Do I see Webber as being the equal of Vettel? No.

Do I see Webber having been given the chance to beat him? Yes, and a few ears ago it was a coin toss who was going to win the title, back when Vettel raced like the kid he was.
however I see him having been demoralised by the incessant beatings Vettel has handed to him which have only got more emphatic as times gone on (11-0 in qualifying this season) partly as Marks motivation declines. He's now under performing his ability for sure.

But Webber was never really going to be a challenger though is my point. Yes Vettel has dominated him greatly on the track that is not up for debate but Webber, I feel, is not a Grade A driver if you will (Championship Winning Potential) and never really was. Evidently, the likes of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikonnen and Button are.

A way to look it I think is that Vettel and Alonso have a free rein pretty much at their team. Their Team Prinicipals cut them extra slack because they need that driver more than the driver needs them. Sure the Red Bull would still be a title contender if Vettel left (as long as Adrian Newey remained) but they'd be back at square one having to find a top driver to replace him. Ferrari may not find it quite so difficult as they can afford whatever driver takes their fancy.

It doesn't look like Webber would make much use of the Red Bull, but I think he's been found down by Vettel. I can't be nice to have been a title contender then systematically shown up for three seasons (including his one). Kind of bordering on humiliating.

Credit to him for fighting on as long as he as; Hamilton showed up for one season at McLaren and it was one too many for Alonso.

I think Webber had this sort of mindset going to Red Bull. He had stand-out drives for struggling teams at the beginning of his F1 career and went to drive for big teams such as BMW and Williams (who were a bigger team at that time) without really excelling and media were hyping him even though he had yet to win a grand prix. He then moved on to Red Bull who were still seen as a small team at that time struggling to be competitive and surely he felt like the top dog of the team having driven for big teams and this probably esculated after Coulthard retired. The team finally began to take shape when Adrian Newey came to the team at the end of 2007 and by the time Vettel came to the team he felt he had seniority and the No.1 spot without doing a heck of a lot. By now Red Bull were now becoming contenders and Vettel was quicker in a quicker car than when Webber came to the team and Vettel became the darling of the team leaving Webber feeling put out and that feeling has grown as he has just never quite made it to a Grade A driver.