Cleverley - A victim of The times !!!!

In any other sport you have to learn your craft before you can become Champion.....Chess, Tennis, Golf etc you learn by playing progressively better players than yourself......You become better by playing quality.........

Hence the problem these days with fighters including Cleverley......Why isn't there more Mayweathers, Mannys and JMM's ??? simply because with cheap titles the buck comes before learning your craft !!!!

You can get a WBO shot or an IBF before you fight anybody decent and of course when you're champion and a challenger comes a long of repute...then you're not ready.....

Sad but today most Boxers have to learn as champions..........apprenticeships are a thing of the past..

Warren likes his WBos but by giving Cleverley a cheap title he retarded him rather than developed him...

Cleverley is a victim of the times...........

Spot on Truss, in the 70s and 80s you earned the right to fight for the title by fighting top 10 fighters and eliminators, you had a good idea whether that fighter was good enough or not.
Cleverly would have been better served fighting experienced opponents who would test him before looking for a title hence the learning curve.

Right on point Truss.

How can a fighter be expected to learn by being belt feed easy fights and overmatched?

Promoters doing this are removing the element of progression and relying more on luck by hoping that when a big fights comes, their guy just happens to be talented enough to pull it off.

It's no surprise there is a lack of sympathy for Cleverley as coupled with his approach is the hubris.

I disagree

You learn your craft in the amatures. Thats where you learn the basics and where you will face a wider range of styles and opponants. Kolorav had a very impressive amature record so does Ridingeaux. Both are showing that class today.

Khan rushed into the pros and look at him. Full of flaws and almost shot as a fighter. How long can a fighter in the pro ranks go about ''learning your craft as you say''???

In the meantime will he be selling out venues?
Will anyone care for his next fight?

Nicely done Truss - pretty much spot on.

In another era, Clev would have had to go down the British/Commonwealth/European route which would have provided the steady increase in opposition quality needed before getting a crack at world level.

One of the sadder aspects of the alphabet era, which is rarely talked about, is that these titles have become devalued somewhat. It should mean something to be national champion, and much more so to be the boss at continental level.

Instead. there's pressure on too many fighters to crack world class opposition - have seen on here many times a putdown of certain fighters that goes "Euro level at best", as if the idea of being top dog in a whole continent is no big deal.

Sad thing is, in the alphabet era perhaps it isn't?

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:I disagree

You learn your craft in the amatures. Thats where you learn the basics and where you will face a wider range of styles and opponants. Kolorav had a very impressive amature record so does Ridingeaux. Both are showing that class today.

Khan rushed into the pros and look at him. Full of flaws and almost shot as a fighter. How long can a fighter in the pro ranks go about ''learning your craft as you say''???

In the meantime will he be selling out venues?
Will anyone care for his next fight?

Khan had an impressive amateur record silver Olympic medal,some fighters are unable to adjust from amateur to the pros,you learn the basics as amateur granted, but how many times have we remarked on pro fighters still being too amateurish.

How was Hopkins amateur career?

for every great pro without an amateur career you can name 100 with.

We are deviating from the topic slightly..

and I hate deviant behaviour unless it's me doing it...

I don't think amateur success has any bearing on pro success, too many failures and too many that have succeeded without it.

Paterson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Bowe, Lewis, Klitchko- seems that amateur success certainly used to be an indicator, if not 100% reliable. But back to point in hand and I'm sort of with Truss on this- there used to be a clear route from area to British to Commonwealth to European to World title as followed by Honeyghan and Lewis that in theory ensued you received a proper education- too much fast tracking doesn't help in the long run. that said I think that however Clev had been bought along he'd still be an ex champ.

Did we need another article on this topic?

The biggest topic since Cleverly got beaten up has been his lack of opposition.

So in tennis players built up like henmen dont play federer? Lowly ranked golfers dont play the same tourneys as woods?
I think you have a point in there somewhere but terribly made.

If you think about it, most fighters first fight for a world title after around 20-25 fights, usually.

Cleverley was 22 fights, Kahn 20 fights, Lennox Lewis 25 fights for example, Hagler I think went 80-odd fights before he fought for the title

Lewis you could say had a good apprenticeship, Brit Euro & commonweath champ & cleaned up domestically, but still only 3 fights more than Clev

So not much difference in the amounts of fights, the difference is in the quality they face on the way, & promoters picking fights instead of fighting genuine fights to see who is best domestically before moving on.

Comes down to money, making the most while they're hot as to a promoter, from a financial sense a beaten fighter obviously isn't a hot prospect on the world stage if someone at domestic level has beaten them.

Khan is a perfect example of this, but would an apprenticeship have made him a better fighter or made a difference?

I am slightly intoxicated Truss so will reply properly to you tomorrow...

However what I will say is that whilst on the whole these alphabet title's are nonsensical the fact is that in this sport people dedicate their lives to it...literally and physical.

I agree we do not need the equivalent of 6 champions in each weight class but having 2 or 3 is not necessarily a bad thing.

From a fans perspective it looks staged and set up, and most of the time it is and we get this....however does that mean someone should miss out on an attack or a sprint. Of course not...hence this next sprint between....

We now, potentially, have the same situation with Joshua having turned pro after only 3-4 yrs as an amateur. The pressure will be on him from the off to impress and progress at a rate probably beyond his capabilities.
I don't see why he had to turn pro so early. I've seen others giving their opinion stating that he had won Olympic gold and had nothing left to prove. He won a razor thin decision in the final and was lucky to be given the decision in his 1st round fight, so I'd say he had plenty to prove, besides HWs mature later & he's only 24 so what's the rush?
Hopefully Hearn will manage his pro career better than Price's has been so far.
Of course another reason for over-protection/under-development of fighters is the protection of the "0", perhaps if the emphasis could be shifted it may improve matters?

jimdig wrote:So in tennis players built up like henmen dont play federer? Lowly ranked golfers dont play the same tourneys as woods?
I think you have a point in there somewhere but terribly made.

yes, and barcelona could play scunthorpe.
your point has no value when associated with boxing.

All good interesting posts save the one muppet.....who is no doubt bemoaning the lack of Boxnation and Frampton articles on here..

But he has nothing to say anyway so it's no loss

Please can we stop the personal insults.

You've dug up a thread...........two weeks since the last opinion...probably from the 2nd page..

Feel free to contribute more often..

But what a thread

As I keep telling them Hero they shouldnt play so rough...somebody is gonna end up crying

............

Must say It's one of my better articles...........

Seem to be having a lot of my old stuff chucked at me these days.......

Maybe a "Truss archive" is in order.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Must say It's one of my better articles...........

Seem to be having a lot of my old stuff chucked at me these days.......

Maybe a "Truss archive" is in order.........

How deep do we get to bury it?

How deep is your love......

Cast a Shadow wrote:Nicely done Truss - pretty much spot on.

In another era, Clev would have had to go down the British/Commonwealth/European route which would have provided the steady increase in opposition quality needed before getting a crack at world level.

The sad thing is that he did go down that route. What the problem was is he was fighting inferior opponents as a World Champion then he was coming up. He got fed bums, thought all he had to do was turn up to win fights, he believed in his own hype and folded when his first proper challenge he had since Bellew. If he had continued his progress and fought the likes of Shuminov, Cloud, Campilo etc. I dont think he would have been mauled like he was against Kovalev.

cleverly a victim of his promoter taking advantage of the times. I think warren was always aware of cleverlys limitations. warren protects all his investments but not usually to the same extent he did with cleverly. warren loves a title to sell, and he managed to use his relationship with the wbo to secure one for clev. but the fact that he had so little trust in cleverly meant he never even allowed cleverly to grow into a champion. but I think frank sold him as a champion to half decent crowds and for a decent wage as long as he could. cleverly is possibly the type of guy who has made advantage of the times. being a world champion earning decent money, before he ever earned the right to be such

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Maybe a "Truss archive" is in order.........

"Recycle Bin" more like...

Warren doesn't trust anybody Lance.......You think Hatton fights Kosta if Warren has anything to do about it..

Union Cane wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Maybe a "Truss archive" is in order.........

"Recycle Bin" more like...

No chance of a top 10 list from you kid...

Ten lines is your monthly quota !!!  

Could it not just be that Cleverley isn't very good

It's a route that worked for Calzaghe; Warren was trying to repeat the trick.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Warren doesn't trust anybody Lance.......You think Hatton fights Kosta if Warren has anything to do about it..

I do actually truss. If it's a risk it will be a calculated risk... ageing inactive champion on home soil. If he wins, its a great win, if he loses... 'too much too soon, lost to an atg, etc'. Easier to come back from a defeat to tszyu, than to a vyvian harris for example. It was very timely and very good matchmaking.

Apologies, I was just checking through Reports and no-one had actioned it so I didn’t see the date against it, carry on as normal (without the personal insults though!)

Wonder who reported this minor infraction ???.........

Whoever it is wants to read the Mayweather number 1 thread..

If he had been around in the 70s or 80s he probably wouldn't have been a 'world champion' so probably wouldn't have earned as much money.

It's also possible that his career could have followed almost exactly the same path. He may even have met Kovalov at exactly the same time in his career in some sort of world title eliminator. The result would have been exactly the same.

So it's probable that, if the IBF and WBO didn't exist, that he would have had exactly the same career and probably would have been paid less to get just as far. With the WBO title he has earned a fairly decent living, got more exposure, and been able to call himself a 'World Champion'. I don't really see him as being any sort of victim.

You say If.............Fact is you learn from good fighters...........You don't learn anything from stiffs....

He wasn't given the chance to develop..

You could be right....could be wrong........That's the problem........

My opinion is he wasn't allowed to grow..

I thought this is what Trussman meant?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/boxing/article3846042.ece

How did Wales get on last night ??...Mate.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How did Wales get on last night ??...Mate.

Lost 3-0 as expected. Im sure you knew that though

COLEMAN OUT. COLEMAN OUT. COLEMAN OUT

David Copperfield couldn't get a result out of that team Mate...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:David Copperfield couldn't get a result out of that team Mate...

Il think youl find pal we were doing quite well under Gary Speed and Raymond Verheijen until what happened. Not saying we would have qualified but certainly would have done better than Coleman and his staff. Such is life

Speed killed himself...and watching Wales play..I can't say I blame him !!

Probably the most tasteless comment you have ever made Truss

Classy. Real classy...

May have to keep that one for the next time the great oaf starts bleating about what a great guy he is. Not often that I agree with STEFFAN but the fat lad has just proved himself to be a prize twunt here.

I'm not sure how much of a victim he was.

Fans want legacies and boxers want wages.

As a champion he would have probably done okay financially (less so than if Frank was still on Sky) and has had a decent career for a young lad with only one loss on his record.

Still plenty of time to come back.

Feel this is more just another case of Frank protecting his investments as he has done throughout his career.