AP Players to watch 2013/14

First topic message reminder :

It's been a slow few days, so I thought I would start a 'new' topic.  The season starts a week on Friday, which players are you are looking forward to seeing play?  Which players have a chance to play themselves into international contention?

Try to choose:

• One new signing.
  

• One youngster who has come through the academy
  

• One club man you think has/ will improve.
  

(They don't all have to be from the club you support)

For a while for Irish he was unreal. Just used to gas people on the outside with ease. And had good hands and a great step. Also his tackle success rate was something like 96%.

Last season he massively dropped off and just didnt seem the same player. Armitage may not be quite as naturally gifted but more than makes up for it with his effort and work rate and thats what saw him take the 13 shirt week in week out.

I said last season I didn't rate him. He'd had a flash in the pan good run of form but had never needed to show that over an extended period. He's now regressed to what for all we know is his natural low level.

Look at guys like Lowe, Robshaw, Twelvetrees, Dowson, Crane, Brown etc who all have to keep showing quality form season after season after season in their positions just to get a sniff of Saxons game time and then if their lucky England game time.

yappysnap wrote:I said last season I didn't rate him. He'd had a flash in the pan good run of form but had never needed to show that over an extended period. He's now regressed to what for all we know is his natural low level.

Look at guys like Lowe, Robshaw, Twelvetrees, Dowson, Crane, Brown etc who all have to keep showing quality form season after season after season in their positions just to get a sniff of Saxons game time and then if their lucky England game time.

In regards to Twelvetrees for example he got international recognition last season because for once he was first choice. At Tigers he was 2nd fiddle both to Flood and Allen at 10 and 12.

Yappysnap it wasn't just your club that had players overlooked during the Johnson era.

I agree though - Joseph has a lot of work to do.

Outside centre is an area that seems to have a lot more options than 3 years ago - the likes of Tuilagi,Daly,Tomkins and Lowe are better than an ageing tindall.

Inside centre too.

The dark days of a Hape-Tindall partnership look to be over.

Interesting to see how the centre prospects go next season.

I agree Beshocked, but I think 12 remains quite bear rarely. A lot of the hype and promise revolves around 36 and/or Eastmond making the step up, but that's a lot of pressure on them. After those two, there aren't any really obvious options. I guess Barritt is solid, experienced and dependable, but outside that, who is there? Ryan Mills at Glos is one to watch long term and Guy Armitage had a strong year, but I think that was largely at 13? Tuilagi to 12 remains an option. 

Whilst 13 looks well stocked, i'm not convinced that 12 is.

What about Banahan...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Banahan...?

 

Why would you say such a horrible thing?!

Back on the wing this season by all accounts. Probably a better option than Ashton!

GeordieFalcon wrote:How good has Joseph actually been?

Was that highlight it...or did he play well for the season.

He's arguably behind...Eastmond, Tomkins and Tuilagi for the 13 spot....and you could make arugements for Lowe being ahead aswell....even Banahan.

A good season withan impressive looking Bath outfit and he could be right back up there again. Of course he'll have to get in that team ahead of Banahan and Eastmond...

He's a different type of player to those, has the best acceleration and the only one who can break on the outside (including Eastmond whose pace I think is over-stated, better at changing direction at pace). He is a far, far better player than Tomkins, who I think is garbage and massively overrated. If England want an alternative rapier at 13 to Tuilagi's bludgeon, it's JJ all the way. He also has better distribution, hands and kicking game than both MT and Tomkins. I think he could be a top, top player if he knuckles down.

I agree Hood, he just needs to get his head down.

Tomkins is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near Int recognition.

I am not a Banahan fan, but the one time I have seen him at 12 it looked to me like his best position. A 12 does not need as much agility in attack ord defence as a 13 or wing, and the big man's heights seemed to work in his favour in terms of distribution and disrupting the opposition. Has he played there much at club level recently? I guess Eastmond is the major obstacle - he looked good in Argentina.

The other 12 I have high hopes for is Tom Casson. Not the biggest, but his reading of the game reminds me of Greenwood, he has a pretty complete package of skills and is solid defensively. Did a good job of containing 36 when we went to Kingsholm last year, too. His main issue is fragility - gets injured far too often, though usually niggly stuff rather than major. I am hoping that a full pre-season (for once) will have set him up to play much more this year.

A final option would be Botica, but he's better at 10 and needs to be persuaded to commit to England first...

Oh, and Charlie Walker may be covering fullback for now, but his best position is supposed to be 13 and his acceleration and change of direction could make him a serious challenger to Joseph in time.

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How good has Joseph actually been?

Was that highlight it...or did he play well for the season.

He's arguably behind...Eastmond, Tomkins and Tuilagi for the 13 spot....and you could make arugements for Lowe being ahead aswell....even Banahan.

A good season withan impressive looking Bath outfit and he could be right back up there again. Of course he'll have to get in that team ahead of Banahan and Eastmond...

He's a different type of player to those, has the best acceleration and the only one who can break on the outside (including Eastmond whose pace I think is over-stated, better at changing direction at pace). He is a far, far better player than Tomkins, who I think is garbage and massively overrated. If England want an alternative rapier at 13 to Tuilagi's bludgeon, it's JJ all the way. He also has better distribution, hands and kicking game than both MT and Tomkins. I think he could be a top, top player if he knuckles down.

That's a touch harsh on Mr Tomkins. He may not be as good as his brother Sam, but he is a decent player. I do think there is an element of confusing overrating/underperforming against expectations of someone with potential. There is no doubt JJ is an exceptionally talented player; my major concern is his mental ability. He clearly wanted to leave Irish and his performances last year mirrored that. A top player would not let that effect his game. I'd always rather have a grafter over a lazy talent. Given his league background, I do feel Tomkins' hands and distribution are better, but it is his overall postional play that lets him down at present. But again given how new he is to Union this may well improve.

Bathite wrote:I agree Beshocked, but I think 12 remains quite bear rarely. A lot of the hype and promise revolves around 36 and/or Eastmond making the step up, but that's a lot of pressure on them. After those two, there aren't any really obvious options. I guess Barritt is solid, experienced and dependable, but outside that, who is there? Ryan Mills at Glos is one to watch long term and Guy Armitage had a strong year, but I think that was largely at 13? Tuilagi to 12 remains an option. 

Whilst 13 looks well stocked, i'm not convinced that 12 is.

To be fair we have Barritt who is pretty good there, and then two very exciting newbies who could make the shirt their own.

That's a lot more then a lot of countries have to choose from. If the Eng camp and the clubs between them can't make decent Int's from those three (and then Casson in the future) then we're always going to struggle.

For Wuss:

New player: Creevy is the obvious choice, but will not be with us until after the Championship. Jonathon Thomas will be quality and has been named captain.

Young player: Probably Max Stelling or Ben Howard.

Club Player: Chris Pennell is a quality 15 who will possibly shine and should be on the radar of the Saxons, but will not be because of more illustrious names. Played the socks off Mike Brown when Quins visited last season. James Percival sweats blue and gold and is a good abrasive lock.

Sorry to give two answers to each category!

For the Chiefs the young players to watch are Slade and Hill ( U20 winners ) club player Ewers replacing Baxton junior and new player is Romana Graham ( a big lump from NZ in the SR )

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How good has Joseph actually been?

Was that highlight it...or did he play well for the season.

He's arguably behind...Eastmond, Tomkins and Tuilagi for the 13 spot....and you could make arugements for Lowe being ahead aswell....even Banahan.

A good season withan impressive looking Bath outfit and he could be right back up there again. Of course he'll have to get in that team ahead of Banahan and Eastmond...

He's a different type of player to those, has the best acceleration and the only one who can break on the outside (including Eastmond whose pace I think is over-stated, better at changing direction at pace). He is a far, far better player than Tomkins, who I think is garbage and massively overrated. If England want an alternative rapier at 13 to Tuilagi's bludgeon, it's JJ all the way. He also has better distribution, hands and kicking game than both MT and Tomkins. I think he could be a top, top player if he knuckles down.

I remain unconvinced by JJ and aside from Guscott's backing can see nothing he has that pretty much every other 1st choice 13 in the AP doesn't

Hood83 you think Tomkins is garbage and massively overrated. That's fine - that is your opinion. Why exactly though?

JJ does not have better hands and distribution than Tomkins. That's Tomkins strength though I do agree with HKC - Tomkins' positional play has let him down a bit.

Same question to you - sgt pooly - why do you think Tomkins is rubbish?

Will Tomkins now get even less gametime with Bosch arriving?

He's just sooooo slow, offers little in attack and positionally poor.

Bathite wrote:Will Tomkins now get even less gametime with Bosch arriving?

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=81444&includeref=dynamic

Even less than starting 22 games in the AP last season. Yes I expect he will.

Tomkins did tail off at the end of the season in my opinion. It seems that it was perhaps fatigue. Borthwick was the same.

Sgt pooly positionally poor I could agree. Slow and offering little in attack? I dont think so personally.

Scored as many tries in the AP last season as the hyped up Yarde. More tries than the legendary Joseph.

Tomkins is the best offloader in the AP.

Speed isn't everything. I know it is to some of you.

Some speed is pretty key for a back though Beshocked, Tomkins is one of the slowest backs in the prem imo. I really do think he's dreadful Bosch will transform you in attack.....scary thought.

I rate Tomkins over JJ on last season's form. JJ has lost his pace and acceleration from what I saw from last season

Of course, Lowe offers both's strengths and a more complete all round game...

I really like Lowe, his size seems to hold him back from Int recognition. Good skill set though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some speed is pretty key for a back though Beshocked, Tomkins is one of the slowest backs in the prem imo. I really do think he's dreadful Bosch will transform you in attack.....scary thought.

If it was all about speed, Glaws would be the best team in Europe!! Sarries play a very structured style and Tomkins fits this very well and his speed is not an issue. If you put him in the Glaws back line playing broken field play it may become an issue, but then Tindall had an excellent season with us last year...  

He's been injury prone too unfortunately

ChequeredJersey wrote:He's been injury prone too unfortunately

More accurately, he picked up a bad ankle injury playing for the Saxons last summer and has taken most of the year to recover from it properly. I can't remember a serious injury before that. I hope given a summer off and a decent preseason normal service will be resumed.

Didn't he do his shoulder last season or the season before as well?

Tomkins is a good player, he seems like a Conrad Smith type 13 in that he doesn't run in tries himself (although he does have a good strike rate) but distributes really well and always looks for the offload, ok so probably more like SBW then Smith.

His defence will come, last season was his first starting for Saracens and with Barritt away on Eng duty he probably had a lot more work to do then first expected.

I'd take him over JJ anyday.

Comparing Tomkins to Conrad Smith....wash your mouth out Yappy!

HKC next you'll be saying Tomkins is slower than Tindall!

Sgt pooly if he was as rubbish as you say he wouldn't be hold a starting spot in one of the top sides in England. Next you'll be saying Newcastle have better outside centres than Tomkins.....

His one on one defence is strong Beshocked, that's all Saracens need from a centre.

His is awful in attack

That's not all Sarries need from a centre, hence why Tomlins has scored and set up a number of tries. At times last season (not all the time at all) Sarries played some nice attacking rugby!

Sarries have good options in the back three. They need their OC to draw defenders in and release the wingers. Tomkins is very good at that, his ability to ride the tackle of a brace of defenders and offload is a real asset for Sarries.

beshocked wrote:Hood83 you think Tomkins is garbage and massively overrated. That's fine - that is your opinion. Why exactly though?

JJ does not have better hands and distribution than Tomkins. That's Tomkins strength though I do agree with HKC - Tomkins' positional play has let him down a bit.

Same question to you - sgt pooly - why do you think Tomkins is rubbish?

Must have been having a bad day, they were strong words! But - he's too slow, i know you think it isn't the be all and end all, but I think a 13 needs to be go around or over someone, preferably both, but definitely not neither. His off-loading I think is hugely overrated, perhaps it's a wavelength thing but I've seen a lot go to ground or fizzle out attacks. Personally I think JJ does have better hands, maybe not as keen or as good at offloading but his distribution I think is better, quite a bit. I just think Tomkins is plodding and pedestrian. Not quite enough power, pace or skills (zero kicking game) to be international quality.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How good has Joseph actually been?

Was that highlight it...or did he play well for the season.

He's arguably behind...Eastmond, Tomkins and Tuilagi for the 13 spot....and you could make arugements for Lowe being ahead aswell....even Banahan.

A good season withan impressive looking Bath outfit and he could be right back up there again. Of course he'll have to get in that team ahead of Banahan and Eastmond...

He's a different type of player to those, has the best acceleration and the only one who can break on the outside (including Eastmond whose pace I think is over-stated, better at changing direction at pace). He is a far, far better player than Tomkins, who I think is garbage and massively overrated. If England want an alternative rapier at 13 to Tuilagi's bludgeon, it's JJ all the way. He also has better distribution, hands and kicking game than both MT and Tomkins. I think he could be a top, top player if he knuckles down.

That's a touch harsh on Mr Tomkins. He may not be as good as his brother Sam, but he is a decent player.  I do think there is an element of confusing overrating/underperforming against expectations of someone with potential.  There is no doubt JJ is an exceptionally talented player; my major concern is his mental ability.  He clearly wanted to leave Irish and his performances last year mirrored that.  A top player would not let that effect his game.  I'd always rather have a grafter over a lazy talent.  Given his league background, I do feel Tomkins' hands and distribution are better, but it is his overall postional play that lets him down at present.  But again given how new he is to Union this may well improve.

Fair enough HKC. The point re overrating/underperforming is a fair one. My opinion is possibly a result of hearing lots of positive talk about him. The points re JJ's attitude are also good. I'm hoping Gold knocks any of that out of him and convinces him to knuckle down.