The Tigers v Ulster 'friendly' aka 'get your retaliation in first' Sat 31 Aug

Code:

15 Niall Morris
14 Scott Hamilton
13 Vereniki Goneva
12 Anthony Allen
11 Adam Thompstone
10 Toby Flood (c)
9 David Melé
1 Logovi'i Mulipola
2 Tom Youngs
3 Dan Cole
4 Louis Deacon
5 Geoff Parling
6 Tom Croft
7 Julian Salvi
8 Jordan Crane

Replacements from
Neil Briggs
George Chuter
Boris Stankovich
Jérôme Schuster
Fraser Balmain
Tom Bristow
Harry Wells
Tom Price
Sebastian de Chaves
Michael Noone
Jamie Gibson
Thomas Waldrom
Scott Steele
George Tresidder
Ryan Lamb
Owen Williams
Dan Bowden
George Catchpole
Henry Purdy
Perry Humphreys

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/17589.php#.UiG0oT-oEpU

Ulster XV and replacements to face Leicester Tigers, Pre-Season Friendly, Welford Road, Saturday 31st August (kick off 15:00);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, L Marshall, C Farrell, D McIlwaine, J McKinney, P Marshall; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson; Replacements: C Black, N Annett, D Fitzpatrick, A O’Connor, C Joyce, L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, I Porter, P Jackson, M Allen, R Andrew.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11694.php

This is a warm-up for serious business later in the season starting in October and I hope that both sides pit plenty of top-squadders against each other.

The front rows under the new Laws should be interesting.
If the ref applies them...

Most the Irish internationals won't be playing as their game time is limited by the IRFU. If Ferris can stop being a sick note we might see him and maybe Best as his summer form was so dire he might need some early game time.

Tigers will probably put out a fairly strong side but will not give the first teamers more than 50 mins.

To be honest, no. None of the OP makes any sense. This is just a training match, Ulster will still be missing most of their first team and the result is unimportant. This is about giving guys who will be playing in Round 1 of the Pro12 a good hit out and improving match fitness in general. There are probably still going to be about 9 or 10 players missing that will be in the frame for the European games and team selection, attitude and tactics will be totally different. For instance Ulster turned down every kickable penalty but one against Leinster to practice lineouts. Wouldn't be surprised if we did the same this week.

What I'm hearing in terms of player availability under the IRFU Player Management Programme, and some of this may very well be subject to change.

Not available until Round 4 of the Pro12 due to Lions duty; Rory Best, Tommy Bowe

Not available until Round 2 of the Pro12; Darren Cave, Stuart Olding, Iain Henderson

Not available until next week; Andrew Trimble, Chris Henry, Tom Court, Paul Marshall

Not available due to Injury; Stephen Ferris (November/December), John Afoa (Round 3?), Paddy Wallace (October/November), Craig Gilroy (Round 1/2)

International duty; Ruan Pienaar

So possible team for Ulster;

Callum Black, Rob Herring, Declan Fitzpatrick, Dan Tuohy, Johann Muller (c), Robbie Diack, Sean Doyle, Nick Williams, Ian Porter, Paddy Jackson, Michael Allen, Luke Marshall, Jared Payne, Chris Cochrane, Peter Nelson

formerly known as Sam wrote:Most the Irish internationals won't be playing as their game time is limited by the IRFU. If Ferris can stop being a sick note we might see him and maybe Best as his summer form was so dire he might need some early game time.

Tigers will probably put out a fairly strong side but will not give the first teamers more than 50 mins.

50 mins would be well over expectation for first teamers, Sam. I saw some highlights (about 5mins) of the UvLeinster game and that looked well contested. Hope for similar this w/e...

Notch wrote:To be honest, no. None of the OP makes any sense. This is just a training match, Ulster will still be missing most of their first team and the result is unimportant. This is about giving guys who will be playing in Round 1 of the Pro12 a good hit out and improving match fitness in general. There are probably still going to be about 9 or 10 players missing that will be in the frame for the European games and team selection, attitude and tactics will be totally different. For instance Ulster turned down every kickable penalty but one against Leinster to practice lineouts. Wouldn't be surprised if we did the same this week.

What I'm hearing in terms of player availability under the IRFU Player Management Programme, and some of this may very well be subject to change.

Not available until Round 4 of the Pro12 due to Lions duty; Rory Best, Tommy Bowe

Not available until Round 2 of the Pro12; Darren Cave, Stuart Olding, Iain Henderson

Not available until next week; Andrew Trimble, Chris Henry, Tom Court, Paul Marshall

Not available due to Injury; Stephen Ferris (November/December), John Afoa (Round 3?), Paddy Wallace (October/November), Craig Gilroy (Round 1/2)


So possible team for Ulster;

Callum Black, Rob Herring, Declan Fitzpatrick, Dan Tuohy, Johann Muller (c), Robbie Diack, Sean Doyle, Nick Williams, Ian Porter, Paddy Jackson, Michael Allen, Luke Marshall, Jared Payne, Chris Cochrane, Peter Nelson

Not the usual IRFU excuses again then, Notch?

Tommy is crocked I know, Rory Best - does he not need need a bit of match practice under the new Laws?

And what's all this?

Notch wrote:Not available until Round 2 of the Pro12; Darren Cave, Stuart Olding, Iain Henderson

Not available until next week; Andrew Trimble, Chris Henry, Tom Court, Paul Marshall

A load of IRFU bollix I call it. Was not last year's so-called injury crisis/lack of depth not perhaps a matter of players being underplayed?

I don't agree with the IRFU player guidelines thingy but it's what we have to live with.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't agree with the IRFU player guidelines thingy but it's what we have to live with.

Johnny Sexton will find himself in culture shock this year in Paris - although a couple of years back Leinster/Ireland reportedly worked the arse off him.

I'd be all for it if it worked but our injury record over the past season or two has been awful and conditioning wise we aren't great either.

Can understand the Lions test players missing but some of those guys barely played over the summer so surely getting the game time and staggering their rests throughout the season makes more sense.

This is just bureaucracy for the sake of it, game time needs to be restricted but it should be done on an individual basis.

It IS done on an individual basis rodders Each player is given a certain number of minutes they can play across each stage of the season and the provinces decide when they use those minutes. If we want we can play all our internationals in pre-season friendlies and then rest them when the season starts. Of course, that would make very little sense.

I'm not defending the player management programme. But let's not be acting surprised here. It's the same every year. And I wouldn't expect that Ulster team to be rolling over either- the result may not matter that much but I doubt we'll be casual in our approach. There's too much at stake for the players in terms of competition for places. I would expect we will be competitive in this game although- given we will be facing Leicester down the line- we have an incentive to not put out our first team and avoid showing our hand to them.

I was against Emerging Irelands tour in a Lions year for this reason. Lions, Ireland and Emergind Ireland. Too much international rugby has a knock-on effect on the start of the provinces season.

Notch wrote:It IS done on an individual basis rodders

I mean individual need Notch, not a blanket number of games per all players involved in certain representative squads. The position, age and fitness of the player is not taken into account.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Was not last year's so-called injury crisis/lack of depth not perhaps a matter of players being underplayed?

No, I think last years injury crisis was due to over-training and having a lot of injuries in the same positions which meant we had to pick guys who were carrying injuries to fulfill fixtures and then they exacerbated their injuries leaving us in a vicious cycle.

If anything I think we were too hard on the players last year. Very few of our team where involved in IRFU mandated player management programmes. The majority of guys who got injured were just normal players who had no restrictions on gametime.

I don't think that the IRFU Player Management Programme is that bad either. The only guys who are missing lots of games are guys who play 10 test matches in a season.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:It IS done on an individual basis rodders

I mean individual need Notch, not a blanket number of games per all players involved in certain representative squads. The position, age and fitness of the player is not taken into account.

rodders- you're completely wrong, that is EXACTLY how it works. Each player is given a certain number of minutes based on position, age etc.

Not a bad call on the team Notch but will MA risk key players who already have gametime?
Farrell did well enough at 13 to warrant a start, and when the internationals return he may get precious little gametime, so give him every chance to impress now. It will (hopefully) be a long enough season for Payne so why risk him?
With Wilson back and needing experience with the players around him I would also start him rather than Williams. FNW doesn't need this game judging by last week so I'd keep as much fuel in his tank as possible at this stage.
MA may want to continue his look at the summer imports to both integrate them into the squad and increase competition. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Ross, and McIlwaine start. Then there's the players like Lutton and Andrew who will be keen to show they're as good as the imports.
Having the IRFU restrictions is actually good for the coach because he doesn't have to justify any of these peripheral selections!

It's true we need to give these guys gametime anyway- we will lose far more players in international windows than most English clubs- and this gives us a chance to give some guys more exposure.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:It IS done on an individual basis rodders

I mean individual need Notch, not a blanket number of games per all players involved in certain representative squads. The position, age and fitness of the player is not taken into account.

rodders- you're completely wrong, that is EXACTLY how it works. Each player is given a certain number of minutes based on position, age etc.

Notch I know how it is supposed to work, my point is that it doesn't. There is no need at this stage to be making these projections on return dates so far out. Best hardly played on the lions so on what basis is he out until week 4. Brad Thorn said our set up was nonsense and we played too little games so that's good enough for me.

Notch wrote:It's true we need to give these guys gametime anyway- we will lose far more players in international windows than most English clubs- and this gives us a chance to give some guys more exposure.

Punters in Leicester will feel short-changed if some stars don't turn up and "we will lose far more players in international windows than most English clubs" is not the case with the Tigers. And not forgetting "- and this gives us a chance to give some guys more exposure" makes me wonder how Ulstermen would have felt had the Tigers pitched up last year with a bunch of academics and second-stringers.

Tbh, Portnoys, I wouldn't care about that at all. I don't necessarily go to pre-season games to look at the opposition. Mainly pre-season games are all about seeing how your own team gets along. As they are included in the season ticket the teams that we are playing don't really change the equation for me. Leinster just played a game at Ravenhill without a single first-choice player in their team and tickets sold out two days before the game so I'm not sure your argument adds up to much even for non-season ticket holders.

One of my fondest memories of pre-season game at Ravenhill was a development tour fixture with a Queensland Reds side without all their Aussie internationals when Reds weren't even that good. They had a lot of unknown youth players out including Will Genia, Digby Ioane, Scott Higginbotham and James Slipper. James Horwill was on the tour but didn't play that game.

I think seeing up and coming players trying to prove themselves is as entertaining as seeing senior players going through the motions at this stage in the piece. Leicester played us at Ravenhill last season, and drew 14-14. We mainly had our second string and Academy out who were busting their balls to prove themselves to their new coach and Leicester had a bunch of internationals playing at half-intensity.

In summary, this just seems like another excuse for one of your famous moaning sessions. I can guarantee that Ulster will name a team with a handful of first team players, a handful of squad players and a few guys who will be future international players. I reckon you should just relax and enjoy it because the depth of our squad and the coaching means it will be a competitive, useful warm-up for both teams.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:It IS done on an individual basis rodders

I mean individual need Notch, not a blanket number of games per all players involved in certain representative squads. The position, age and fitness of the player is not taken into account.

rodders- you're completely wrong, that is EXACTLY how it works. Each player is given a certain number of minutes based on position, age etc.

Notch I know how it is supposed to work, my point is that it doesn't. There is no need at this stage to be making these projections on return dates so far out. Best hardly played on the lions so on what basis is he out until week 4. Brad Thorn said our set up was nonsense and we played too little games so that's good enough for me.  

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm not a fan of the system. I'm just correcting some misconceptions that you've got. It is an individually tailored programme. Your posts seem to give the impression you think its not. I would rather Best was available a bit earlier (Bowe is injured anyway, so bit of a moot point regarding him) and think Olding and Henderson wouldn't do any harm being available a bit earlier either.

It is also about a pre season. Best would have not started one until about 4 weeks after the main squad.

Don't mind yerman portnoy. Those prl lads are great at telling other people how to run their leagues.

If I gave a sh1t I would give him a few tips on how they could improve theirs.

Notch wrote:Tbh, Portnoys, I wouldn't care about that at all. I don't necessarily go to pre-season games to look at the opposition. Mainly pre-season games are all about seeing how your own team gets along. As they are included in the season ticket the teams that we are playing don't really change the equation for me. Leinster just played a game at Ravenhill without a single first-choice player in their team and tickets sold out two days before the game so I'm not sure your argument adds up to much even for non-season ticket holders.

One of my fondest memories of pre-season game at Ravenhill was a development tour fixture with a Queensland Reds side without all their Aussie internationals when Reds weren't even that good. They had a lot of unknown youth players out including Will Genia, Digby Ioane, Scott Higginbotham and James Slipper. James Horwill was on the tour but didn't play that game.

I think seeing up and coming players trying to prove themselves is as entertaining as seeing senior players going through the motions at this stage in the piece. Leicester played us at Ravenhill last season, and drew 14-14. We mainly had our second string and Academy out who were busting their balls to prove themselves to their new coach and Leicester had a bunch of internationals playing at half-intensity.

In summary, this just seems like another excuse for one of your famous moaning sessions. I can guarantee that Ulster will name a team with a handful of first team players, a handful of squad players and a few guys who will be future international players. I reckon you should just relax and enjoy it because the depth of our squad and the coaching means it will be a competitive, useful warm-up for both teams.

You just don't get it do you?
Both Tigers and Ulster are professional clubs playing before a paying public to watch a game of rugby.
It's not a park runabout.

If Ulster don't put out a half-decent squad - even for cameo appearances - then they should hang their heads in shame. And their fans should too.

 

As part of the "paying public" for many games at Ravenhill where both the hosts and visitors have rotated to develop players or keep the squad fresh over the years, I feel entitled to say you're being ridiculous. Maybe you should just boycott all games involving Irish teams? I know that Johann Muller and the boys will be absolutely devastated when the news gets back to them that you won't be there but Gee Whillikers Portnoys- someone has to make a stand over this concern for player welfare, by Jove!

Portnoy's right.

It's pretty much the end of rugby as we know it. And Ulster Rugby killed it.

Portnoy, you should probably refrain from commenting on Irish rugby, because whatever the variable when it comes to Ireland or one of the provinces you really do roll out the bs.

Don Alfonso wrote:Portnoy's right.

It's pretty much the end of rugby as we know it. And Ulster Rugby killed it.

First they came for proper rucking, and I did nothing because I am not a proper ruck. Then they came for the pre-season friendlies, and I did nothing because I am not a pre-season friendly...

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do not insist on full-strength teams for friendlies.

It's a PRE-SEASON match.

ie, it is a training session against less familiar opposition.

They allow folks to pay to come and watch (or watch for free if it was a home game and you are a STH) but that is just a bonus.

It is NOT for the entertainment of the public. IT IS A TRAINING EXERCISE!!!!!

Anyone who attends a pre-season match without this firmly in their mind is deluding themselves.

PS. Attenance is not compulsory and carries a Government health warning.

PRE-SEASON MATCHES ARE NOT FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT AND SHOULD BE ENJOYED ONLY AS PART OF A REALISTIC EXPECTATION OF PLAYERS APPEARING.

Mind you, if you watch with the right attitude they can be very entertaining games.

Portnoy, Ulster do not have to put out a half decent squad. Tigers don't have to either. Ulster and Tigers do have to put out the squads that they think will prepare them most for their first league game of the season, and benefit them most for the upcoming season. If MA thinks Ulster would benefit most by putting out the Ravens then he will put out the Ravens Squad. He doesn't get paid for entertaining crowds in pre season friendlys, he gets paid to win the competitive games. Same as anyone at Leicester.
Friendlies are the only games you'd rather play well and lose than play badly and win. Anyone attending a friendly knows this.

Kingshu wrote:Friendlies are the only games you'd rather play well and lose than play badly and win. Anyone attending a friendly knows this.

Spot on. I'll be concerned about the result, but only in the context of what it means for us in terms of momentum going into next week.

I would raise one point on Williams. I thought he looked a tad bulkier than he finished the season. Wouldn't mind seeing him get another 40 to keep him ticking over. Also wouldn't mind seeing Joyce get some gametime if he isn't injured

I've just heard that the UN Security council is considering a motion to "take all necessary measures to protect civilians from less than full strength sides"

Toooooo sooon?

You know who was keen on playing understrength teams in pre-season friendlies?

Hitler.

Make of that what you will.

If Jimmy Savile were here today, he'd say the younger the better... in terms of the age of the players.

Say No to Academy players getting a chance to play rugby before their mid-twenties. Because if you believe in squad rotation, you're probably a creepy child-sexing degenerate. Or as we call them here in Cloud Cuckoo Land... an Irish Rugby fan.

Vote For Full-Strength Teams. It's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

OK... this thread is starting to tark a dark turn.

It's not like one of Portnoys threads to go off track.

Boom- here you go. Looks like was slightly misinformed about return dates for Court, Trimble etc. We've opted to give them a bit of gametime ahead of next week. Anscombe said he has to give guys more than 40 minutes at this stage so expect starters for next week to get about 50/60 mins with the exception of Paddy Jackson coming off the bench. Interested to see Farrell at 12 and Marshall at 13, last week it was the other way around when Skywalker came on. Obviously still tinkering to try and find that elusive best fit in the centres.

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, L Marshall, C Farrell, D McIlwaine, J McKinney, P Marshall; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson; Replacements: C Black, N Annett, D Fitzpatrick, A O’Connor, C Joyce, L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, I Porter, P Jackson, M Allen, R Andrew.

8 guys with full international caps in the starting line-up, 2 more on the bench. Don't think you could ask for much more tbh.

Will be very interested to see how Marshall goes at 13.

It's a travesty.

I heard that MA changed the line-up in response to Portnoy's indignation at his original selection.

He just could not live with being responsible for the fall-out!

 

Artful_Dodger wrote:Will be very interested to see how Marshall goes at 13.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Marshall to play at 12? Isn't that how he and Farrell lined up last week when Marshall came on?

Maybe they will switch it up a good bit.

Nice to see Ulster are naming a competitive squad. Nice campaigning work Portnoy.

Hoping to see Ben Youngs, Manu, Tait and Slater back for Tigers. Think Smith is still injured but the others should be close to full fitness if not fully fit. Tigers will no doubt wait until the last minute to name the team.

Well at least we are doing their bit to keep the fans happy.

I now understand why Van Morrisson who when I saw him at the DeMont felt he could turn up hours late and refuse to play his famous songs but plug his latest album instead.

I heard that the Tiggers will be playing their Lions - one for the fat cats.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I now understand why Van Morrisson who when I saw him at the DeMont felt he could turn up hours late and refuse to play his famous songs but plug his latest album instead.

You are some chump Portnoys... then again, so is Van Morrison by all accounts.

Ah well - that's the entertainment industry for you, Notch.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Well at least we are doing their bit to keep the fans happy.

I now understand why Van Morrisson who when I saw him at the DeMont felt he could turn up hours late and refuse to play his famous songs but plug his latest album instead.

Your sentence makes no sense - in English, anyway.

C"mon, Portnoy. You can channel more unbridled, self-righteous indignation than that. Possibly semi-coherently?

What will the Tiggers team be?

Don't be insulting Portnoy his banter is a good tonic for a dull day.

Tigers will be giving their first teamers a run out though maybe not all at the same time. Probably a fair number of subs as well. There's a few close calls in the Tigers team so the second row, 6, 8 and the back three will see players going all out to cement their places ahead of the Worcester game.

Look out for:
Croft vs Mafi - both tall, pacey and skillfull blindsides. Croft is more savvy but Mafi is more powerful. If Mafi played for a home nations country I think he may have made the Lions tour.
Crane vs Waldrom - old school big work horse 8 vs dynamic modern 8.
Thompstone vs Goneva - strong pacey wingers both weighing in at over 15 stones. Thompstone the more reliable and last seasons too scorer whilst Goneva is more explosive but prone to mistakes and rushing into tackles.

Code:

15 Niall Morris
14 Scott Hamilton
13 Vereniki Goneva
12 Anthony Allen
11 Adam Thompstone
10 Toby Flood (c)
9 David Melé
1 Logovi'i Mulipola
2 Tom Youngs
3 Dan Cole
4 Louis Deacon
5 Geoff Parling
6 Tom Croft
7 Julian Salvi
8 Jordan Crane

Replacements from
Neil Briggs
George Chuter
Boris Stankovich
Jérôme Schuster
Fraser Balmain
Tom Bristow
Harry Wells
Tom Price
Sebastian de Chaves
Michael Noone
Jamie Gibson
Thomas Waldrom
Scott Steele
George Tresidder
Ryan Lamb
Owen Williams
Dan Bowden
George Catchpole
Henry Purdy
Perry Humphreys

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/17589.php#.UiG0oT-oEpU

Ulster XV and replacements to face Leicester Tigers, Pre-Season Friendly, Welford Road, Saturday 31st August (kick off 15:00);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, L Marshall, C Farrell, D McIlwaine, J McKinney, P Marshall; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson; Replacements: C Black, N Annett, D Fitzpatrick, A O’Connor, C Joyce, L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, I Porter, P Jackson, M Allen, R Andrew.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11694.php

Radio Leicester apparently are providing sound commentary http://www.bbc.co.uk/radioleicester/programmes/schedules

From which we can draw that Ben Youngs, Manu, Tait and Smith are all still unfit to play in the backs. Big Ed is obviously still recovering from surgery and Kitchener picked up a knock from Montpellier that's still not right.

I presume Mafi and Scilly have been away on international duty and that Camacho and Ayerza are still with Argentina.

This will probably be the team that starts the season unless a bench player makes a case for inclusion. Looks like a second half backline of Williams, Purdy, Bowden, Catchpole, Humphreys, Lamb again.

It might have been more worthwhile playing a Tigers' possibles v probables match - or one against another Jeff side or a proper LV match.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:It might have been more worthwhile playing a Tigers' possibles v probables match - or one against another Jeff side or a proper LV match.

You really are a deeply sad, unpleasant man.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:It might have been more worthwhile playing a Tigers' possibles v probables match - or one against another Jeff side or a proper LV match.

You really are a deeply sad, unpleasant man.

Interesting comment, Notch. Just because I want the best for my club and its supporters (not to mention my league and my country and rugby in general) , I'm "a deeply sad, unpleasant man.".

If you say so...