Is unseen work myth or reality?

First topic message reminder :

Players like Lydiate often provoke the phrase unseen work. Back in his day Reuben Thorne's nickname was Captain Invisible. A beautifully liberal moniker because it suited his many detractors and the selectors who strangely kept picking him.

How much of the work at the breakdown does the naked eye pick up? This is more a phrase used for forwards as backs tend to be more transparent in what they do.

I must confess I'm a tad cynical about the term but I did read some intriguing statistics on the roar that made me sit up and think about this issue.

Richie McCaw returned to test football after his self imposed break. His timing seemed off in the first half of the Sydney match and I thought Hooper caught the eye more in Wellington and was the best Walkaby player and overshadowed McCaw.

But listen to these statistics.
In 153 minutes of rugby over the two matches so far this season McCaw had 115 involvements (17 carries, 32 attempted tackles, 39 attacking rucks and 27 defensive rucks) whereas Hooper played 156 minutes and had 64 involvements (10 carries, 12 attempted tackles, 25 attacking rucks and 17 defensive rucks). McCaw’s involvements over the two matches were 80% higher than that of Hooper.

In the Wellington match Hooper had fewer involvements than the first match and less than half of McCaw in terms of involvements: 28 to 59.

Is this an example of unseen work? These stats don't have turnovers in which I would wager Hooper outplayed McCaw. But it seems in other areas Hooper's work rate is notably lacking.

Maybe this is a symptom of Genia's drop in form. He seems to be lacking protection and he lacks that space that he craves and in which he excels. Is it possible to attribute a drop in form to unseen work or lack thereof or is it a cop out?

When we as fans watch games surely we also see difference things and miss others? Could be down to bias or scrutiny that we focus on some players and ignore others.

I just think sometimes the stats surprise people. You wouldn't think it but Mako Vunipola for example makes an awful lot of tackles per game (certainly higher than the average player).

Getting your backside off the ground and getting into the defensive line to fill a void is massive as well. Rather than taking a breatheron the floor next to a finished ruck.

beshocked wrote:When we as fans watch games surely we also see difference things and miss others? Could be down to bias or scrutiny that we focus on some players and ignore others.

I just think sometimes the stats surprise people. You wouldn't think it but Mako Vunipola for example makes an awful lot of tackles per game (certainly higher than the average player).

Well, it is an awfully long way to run round Mako   

I think this discussion of 'unseen work' really needs a comment about Launchbury's performances this tournament. While he has become increasingly prominent ball in hand, he is clearly picked primarily for the amount of work he does in the rucks and mauls and in defence - twice in two weeks he has been the defender tracking back on the diagonal to close down a half break from an outside back, and otherwise he just makes a ton of tackles a couple of men out from the edge of the breakdown. Maybe it isn't so much 'unseen' but it is the unglamourous hard work that allows others (e.g. Billy V or Ben Morgan) a bit more freedom to be the heavy ball carreirs.

It always amazes me when people say "oh but he does so much unseen work"... if its unseen how do you know when he's doing it and when he's not.

Its the same when you hear the following.... oh Leigh Halfpenny can attack, 5 years ago he was really good against Italy etc. But is not under team orders etc.

One thing I love is when a player gets a reputation for being good on the floor, if their team wins a steal and he's in the ruck its always down to him... regardless of someone else having their mitts around the ball.

I do acknowledge though some pundits know their game well, and not just those who have the allowance of video replys. Some guys have great instant observational skills... and not just jiffy saying numbers, space, numbers, space.... say it every time and its bound to be true once in a while!

fa0019 wrote:

Its the same when you hear the following.... oh Leigh Halfpenny can attack, 5 years ago he was really good against Italy etc. But is not under team orders etc.

Before I comment on that, I just want you to confirm you did mean that to be "now" rather than "not"? It seems to make more sense if you meant "now"?

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Its the same when you hear the following.... oh Leigh Halfpenny can attack, 5 years ago he was really good against Italy etc. But is not under team orders etc.

Before I comment on that, I just want you to confirm you did mean that to be "now" rather than "not"?  It seems to make more sense if you meant "now"?

yeah.

fa0019 wrote:

I do acknowledge though some pundits know their game well, and not just those who have the allowance of video replys. Some guys have great instant observational skills... and not just jiffy saying numbers, space, numbers, space.... say it every time and its bound to be true once in a while!

Or "Lydiate, Lydiate again. What a tackle from Lydiate"

Made that man's career has old Jiffy

BamBam wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

I do acknowledge though some pundits know their game well, and not just those who have the allowance of video replys. Some guys have great instant observational skills... and not just jiffy saying numbers, space, numbers, space.... say it every time and its bound to be true once in a while!

Or "Lydiate, Lydiate again. What a tackle from Lydiate"

Made that man's career has old Jiffy

Interesting about Lydiates tackles... Faletau completes near as many but also carries the ball more and does a lot more ground work. Lydiate never turns people over in tackles like Lawes can (albeit he is very secure ala Neil Back - who if I recall would miss about 1-2 tackles a season).

The best comment I've seen on unseen work is from Conor O'Shea, who says that he often only appreciates how much work Robshaw does when he watches the replay, and then is still astonished by how much he gets through.

If a guy whose job it is to watch these players week-in, week-out misses stuff that they do in real time, then it seems pretty likely that we do, too.

Unseen work is real, and is often under-appreciated by everyone except the coaches and team, who will know exactly what it is worth to them.

fa0019 wrote:

Its the same when you hear the following.... oh Leigh Halfpenny can attack, 5 years ago he was really good against Italy etc. But is now under team orders etc.

Thanks.  Response so:

It happens to be true though.  People are generally as smart as people get usually (a few exceptions of course!).  But people have both instincts and knowledge built up over years of experience either as fervent observers or participators.  You can only drink a cup of tea or coffee because you know what a cup is and know what stuff is in it and know what a handle is for.  

So, in some aspects of rugby is can be as clear as day what's going on.  You know it.  You don't need a coach to come out and preach his mantra in precise detail.  And in Gatland's case he'd most probably lie anyway.

To suggest Halfpenny doesn't involve himself too much in attack because of some kind of acquired fear of involvement in such practices is more looking for the 'unseen' than to simply suggest it's team orders.  And it is.

Ireland in Kidney's later years - kicking ball away from inside their own half to known counter-attacking players and not attempting to chase after it with any conviction.  Not players afraid to chase.  Players under orders - following some weird tactical plan invented by the Irish coaches.  Everyone knew it was orders.  New orders from Schmidt and kicking has renewed meaning.  Observers know things....they ain't all dumb.

Last Lions game against Australia.... Halfpenny was no slouch waiting at home in his 15 pocket that day and it wasn't five years ago.

if the pope poops in the woods, does he really wear a hat?

No (and as a Catholic I’m totally qualified to answer this). When His Holiness drops one in the woods he’s bear headed.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Its the same when you hear the following.... oh Leigh Halfpenny can attack, 5 years ago he was really good against Italy etc. But is now under team orders etc.

Thanks.  Response so:

It happens to be true though.  People are generally as smart as people get usually (a few exceptions of course!).  But people have both instincts and knowledge built up over years of experience either as fervent observers or participators.  You can only drink a cup of tea or coffee because you know what a cup is and know what stuff is in it and know what a handle is for.  

So, in some aspects of rugby is can be as clear as day what's going on.  You know it.  You don't need a coach to come out and preach his mantra in precise detail.  And in Gatland's case he'd most probably lie anyway.

To suggest Halfpenny doesn't involve himself too much in attack because of some kind of acquired fear of involvement in such practices is more looking for the 'unseen' than to simply suggest it's team orders.  And it is.

Ireland in Kidney's later years - kicking ball away from inside their own half to known counter-attacking players and not attempting to chase after it with any conviction.  Not players afraid to chase.  Players under orders - following some weird tactical plan invented by the Irish coaches.  Everyone knew it was orders.  New orders from Schmidt and kicking has renewed meaning.  Observers know things....they ain't all dumb.

Last Lions game against Australia.... Halfpenny was no slouch waiting at home in his 15 pocket that day and it wasn't five years ago.

The thing is , sure he made 1 run in the last lions tour but his record is not great attack wise.

When he played wing for Wales his record was very poor compared to the current players. His first 22 matches (of which he started 21) he played wing for Wales. During this time he scored 8 tries (but crucially 4 came against Canada, Fiji and Samoa). Against the better sides he has only scored 4 in 18 matches... and those were 2 vs. Scotland, 1 vs. England and 1 vs. France.

As a wing he is utilised as a finisher, a try scorer. FB is different. You set up, receive and kick a lot more.

But a record of 4 in 18 is very average... especially given he got his start with a team recently crowned GS champs in 2008. They were not a bad outfit.

Can he attack, sure. Is he in a class of chaps like Huget, Brown, Kearney in that respect.... no.

Worth checking out the demented mole's attempt to quantify "Unseen work"

http://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/