Top 14 thread

[whocares]

I thought I'd start one in case some people have interest in it now since I believe BT is showing one game a week.

Since it was agreed to have more time for french players to prepare for the 6N next year, we ended up with some mid week games this wednesday.

so day 4 is upon us ( BST)

04/09/2013

6:45 p.m. Castres Olympique - Stade Français

7:00 p.m. Union Bordeaux-Begles - Montpellier Hérault Rugby

7:00 p.m. ASM Clermont - Bayonne

7:00 p.m. Oyonnax - Biarritz Olympique

7:00 p.m. Perpignan - Grenoble

7:00 p.m. RC Toulonnais - Brive

9:05 p.m. Stade Toulousain - Racing Metro 92


Standings are not too relevant at this stage with SF leading with 10 points (2 wins) and Oyonnax closing with 4 points (1 win).
Last round only saw typically home wins and with the current heavy schedule it is no surprise to see teams prioritising their home games and sending "B" teams away.

here's my view on the coming games :

Castres Olympique - Stade Français

Stade Français had a good start getting one away win in Perpignan (albeit with luck) and large victory againt an injury depleted and poor Biarritz. Castres had been solid though and expect them to bounce them from last weekend defeat in Bordeaux where they were very unlucky. That said they already lost Richie Gray through injury. Kockott to do the business and Catsres by something like 6.

Union Bordeaux-Begles - Montpellier Hérault Rugby

Montpelier , one of my dark horses for this season has been sohow disapointing against Brive last weekend. Bordeau on the other hand got their 2nd one thanks to their new flyhalf boot (pierre bernard). they lost some key players like heini adams and have poor depth. although I'd like them to win, I think it's too early and too big for them, Montpelier by 3.

ASM Clermont - Aviron Bayonnais

very interesting game with Bayonne backline foreigners (spedding, rokocoko and lovobalovu) being on great form so far. Phillips had a great game as well last weekend against Perpignan setting up a beautiful try. that said Clermont at home is a different task and after a shaky start they showed against toulouse that they fire power is still there. Clermont by 12.

Oyonnax - Biarritz Olympique

Oyonnax sent their B team to play against racing last weekend and should have got a result if it wasnt for some dodgy referee decisions. was nice to watch damian browne have a talk with sexton at half time.
on current form there is no question, Oyonnax by 10.

Perpignan - Grenoble

difficult one really, while they show some good stuff most of the time, Perpignan has been very undisciplined so far and hook has not been very unreliable in defense (as a fullback). beattie is still injured but strokosh should play. Grenoble is very solid although unspectacular. forwards will decide who win that game. cant decide. maybe a Perpignan will outscore them by 6.

Toulon - Brive

Toulon by 20

Stade Toulousain - Racing Metro 92

racing is very disapointing so far. only sexton seem to try although he's not near as good as when he was in leinster, the rest of the backline is hopeless (specially that fullback Lapeyre). they will probably rotate a lot anyway which cant hurt. Toulouse will play with no professional loosehead in their squad and only one hooker available! still I fancy them to win by 10 points or more.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Great stuff, whocares - excellent update and preview - I had been wondering why the midweek fixtures had suddenly appeared this season - makes sense re international availability

[HammerofThunor]

Not the point of thread but the FFR have more time with the players? Did they have to give anything for that or did they manage to get it for free? How long is it for?

Regarding the post. For Perpignan did you Hook hasn't been reliable in defence? Is he looking at a permenant move to full back or is it too early to say?

[brennomac]

Good to have this thread whocares, now that Setanta Ireland are showing some free T14 games in Ireland (the Sexton factor). Have to say though what I've see s far hasn't been great. OK Toulon looked very good against RM but then they go and lose away to Grenoble with what was anything but a B team

Toulon: 15 Delon Armitage, 14 Josua Tuisova, 13 Mathieu Bastareaud, 12 Matt Giteau, 11 David Smith, 10 Jonny Wilkinson, 9 Michael Claassens, 8 Chris Masoe, 7 Pierrick Gunther, 6 Virgile Bruni, 5 Daniel Rossouw, 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 Carl Hayman, 2 Benjamin Noirot, 1 Andrew Sheridan,
Replacements: 16 Jean charles Orioli, 17 Xavier Chiocci, 18 Jocelino Suta, 19 Steffon Armitage, 20 Bryan Habana, 21 Maxime Mermoz, 22 Sebastien Tillous Borde, 23 Levan Chilachava.

Given the size of their panel Toulon should stroll the T14, Toulouse look they're on a downward slope, Clermont can't go losing to the likes of Oyonnax if they are to have any pretensions to winning the Bouclier, and Castres, Montpellier, Bayonne and Perpignan look like they're going to be as inconsistent as ever. RM (with Sexton at 10) might have won two out of three, but they look like a collection of individuals. No stand-out team so far but if yiou are going to take a punt at this early stage it's hard to look beyond Toulon. Mind you, lots of us thought the same last year and who then went and won the Bouclier!

[whocares]

Not the point of thread but the FFR have more time with the players? Did they have to give anything for that or did they manage to get it for free? How long is it for?

Regarding the post. For Perpignan did you Hook hasn't been reliable in defence? Is he looking at a permenant move to full back or is it too early to say?

so far FFR is giving nothing to the clubs for those 2 weeks off.

Hook had been playing 15 to accomodate Lopez at 10. I think they will rotate during the seasons. However i dont think he's "fast" enough to at fullback there and could catch spedding last weekend. He did score one try thouh but made a couple of knock ons.

[LeinsterFan4life]

What is the point in Toulon having an academy? Is it just so they can potentially find PI players for the french national team?

[Artful_Dodger]

Stade Francais are looking good this season, as good as they've looked in a long time.  But whocares says they were lucky in the first match and Biarritz had a lot missing and aren't the force they were for the second.  So I'll be interested to see how they do against the champions this week.  BT Sport shows a lot of Top14 rugby for anyone that has it by the way.

[whocares]

Brennomac, agree, what matter is the business end ( the play offs ) and in which form you get there.
I still think that Toulon needs to get enough points by december because some of their (older) players will be fading away with the HC cup games by then.
as for the others candidates for the playoffs it might be tougher than expected and a couple of teams might have to chose between the HC and the T14.
Toulouse played their best rugby of the last 2 years in the 2nd half against bayonne 10 days ago so hopefully they are not completely dead but their front row injury list is already an issue.
 
 
the interesting bit this year is the relegation fight : no whipping boys like mont de marsan and all candidates to relegation can play decent rugby or show a lot of heart at home. wont be an easy one between begles-bordeaux, oyonnax and brive who are getting close to grenoble , biarritz or perpignan.

[whocares]

Stade Français is pretty much the same team that was humiliated by leinster . plenty of young players with potential but not enough muscle and experience.
the return of papé and arrival of steyn should improve their rugby.

[whocares]

What is the point in Toulon having an academy? Is it just so they can potentially find PI players for the french national team?

to be fair our own fidjians are coming from clermont or racing "academies"
the sad thing is that toulon has a access to some pretty solid young players (specially forwards) and we very rarely see them (exception of orioli and bruni now)

[monwy]

What is the point in Toulon having an academy? Is it just so they can potentially find PI players for the french national team?

to be fair our own fidjians are coming from clermont or racing "academies"
the sad thing is that toulon has a access to some pretty solid young players (specially forwards) and we very rarely see them (exception of orioli and bruni now)

Gunther, Martin & Chiocci are academy graduates that also feature a fair bit, with Gunther & Martin now making the extended French squad.  Very young players like Roux, Fresia & Belan are starting to get opportunities with the senior squad as well.

Rather than finding PI players for France, Toulon's academy have done a better job of developing Georgian internationals like Chilachava & Mikautadze.

[whocares]

fair points Monwy was highlighting Orioli and Bruni because they clearly have talent (Orioli at least should be in the french squad before the next world cup). that said Gunther disapeared in the middle of last season and is in my opinon just an overrated gym monkey. Martin, I'd like to see more of him while Chiocci is not up to the level yet. They all need more game time to improve at the end and I feel they not getting that yet.
Havent seen the other you mention played yet bar Chilachava who has still plenty to work to do to take hayman spot. but its true its all for the benefit of georgia
we could also mention maestri and fickou, both graduates from toulon academy that got poached by toulouse

[Hound of Harrow]

whocares

See Penfro's TV guide on the main rugby board. Two games on Setanta Ireland tomorrow.

For me Castres and RM have been disappointing from what I have read in The Rugby Paper's 'French Column'.

Planet Rugby have decent english language reports from the T14, but this article is a welcome addition.

[monwy]

fair points Monwy was highlighting Orioli and Bruni because they clearly have talent (Orioli at least should be in the french squad before the next world cup). that said Gunther disapeared in the middle of last season and is in my opinon just an overrated gym monkey. Martin, I'd like to see more of him while Chiocci is not up to the level yet. They all need more game time to improve at the end and I feel they not getting that yet.
Havent seen the other you mention played yet bar Chilachava who has still plenty to work to do to take hayman spot. but its true its all for the benefit of georgia
we could also mention maestri and fickou, both graduates from toulon academy that got poached by toulouse

Yes, certainly agree those two are the standouts, just thought those others were notable graduates and getting a reasonable amount of game time last season.

Gunther definitely went missing in the middle of last season and there is a hint of the Spies about him, but at 23 he's still got plenty of time to develop his game (likely as a dependable club player rather than a top international, but I can see him floating around the national side for a number of years) and he had 25 games with 17 starts last season.  Chiocci again not looking like a world beater as yet, but 22 is still quite young for a prop and with the props he's learning from I think Toulon will reap the benefits in a few years of a go to club man at the least (21 games with only a few starts last season, but there aren't many 22yo props starting regularly and it looks like he'll have more with Jenkins now gone).  I've really liked the look of Martin from what I've seen of him, especially at only 20yo, and he had 19 starts in 21 appearances last season.

The other three young players I only know from age grade rugby and are 21 or under.  Fresia looks real quality for such a young prop, last year was his debut and I think we'll see him getting more appearances from the bench with Chiocci going up the pecking order.  Belan is another with real potential and started amongst pretty much full strength backlines in the RM & BB pre-season games.  This will be his debut year and it looks like they intend to get him in the mix with Mermoz & Bastareaud featuring in the French squad.  Roux got his first few games last season as an 18yo and although he probably won't have a huge amount of opportunities yet I think the club consider him a future star and will look to get him involved whenever the opportunity presents itself (his father played for Toulon back when they were winning titles in the 90s/80s)

Quite right about Maestri & Fickou as well.

[George Carlin]

Really excellent thread WhoCares. I know a little about Top 14 but I'd like to know more and these previews are really helpful for me.

I haven't seen any of the Scots in France feature yet - I think that Gray is still being rested by Castres, everyone's favourite angry baldy Al Strokosch is going to feature for Perpignan this week apparently, Big Jim has played a couple of times for Monpellier but I don't know how he's been getting on, Johnny Beattie played well in the pre-season matchups I understand and thankfully, the Squashed Goblin himself, Mr Max Evans has gone AWOL. I understand Nathan Hines moves closer to being a Clermont ligind every week.

Any insight you could give on their progress would also be much appreciated. Good work fella.

[sensisball]

Beattie is either still injured or being "rested" or cannot make the match 23. Alex Tulu is such a dynamic ball carrier and has a much better work rate than Beattie. I think Johnny will remain an impact player. Particularly when you consider big Jim Hamilton and the massive cameroonian CharlieWatchu, signed from Perpignan, will allow the force of nature that is Marmuka Gorgodza to play in the back row where he is at his destructive best. It will in the away games in the Top14 and Heino where Montpellier may choose to rest their first choice players that Beattie may figure.

[George Carlin]

Didn't the strategy of sticking Godzilla in the second row do them quite well last year?

Or is the point that with Pelly's new personnel, that's not the best option any more?

[Artful_Dodger]

Anybody see this shocker from Jamie Roberts after Sexton's glorious break?

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/09/3366/jamie-roberts-poor-pass-bombs-try-after-great-break-from-jonny-sexton

[whocares]

Anybody see this shocker from Jamie Roberts after Sexton's glorious break?

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/09/3366/jamie-roberts-poor-pass-bombs-try-after-great-break-from-jonny-sexton

Oh yeah I witnessed that sad moment live. Was taking my 4 years old son to his first game and I hope he will have to watch something better next!

[whocares]

Didn't the strategy of sticking Godzilla in the second row do them quite well last year?

Or is the point that with Pelly's new personnel, that's not the best option any more?

Am with Sensiball, Gorgodze is more destructive at 8 where he has more space to run from. Hamilton should be the enforcer from now on and had been by a mile their best lock so far. Beattie might be in trouble but Galthie likes mobile backrowers so he will get game time. He's starting tomorrow in what could look like a B team from Montpelier with more than half of the team changing. Still some nice players left and france U20 flyhalf making his debut. Nice to see new faces as well. Jim hamilton picked up an injury against brive. Strokosh should start for perpignan and Evans is rested/injured/stranded at home. Hines just had his first game last weekend so difficult to judge his form.

[brennomac]

whocares

See Penfro's TV guide on the main rugby board. Two games on Setanta Ireland tomorrow.

For me Castres and RM have been disappointing from what I have read in The Rugby Paper's 'French Column'.

Planet Rugby have decent english language reports from the T14, but this article is a welcome addition.

Yup, Setanta Irl have a double-header tonite - Castres-Stade at 17.45 and Toulouse-Racing Metro at 20.00 - think I'll pass on the early one and wait for Toul-RM

[whocares]

toulouse pickign the best available team :
Huget
Médard, Fritz, Fickou, Gear
McAlister, Doussain
Dusautoir (cap), Picamoles, Lamboley
Maestri, Millo Chluski
Johnston, Tolofua, Baille
 
subs : Van der Heever (SA hooker I never heard of before), Aldegheri , Tekori, Nyanga, Bezy, Beauxis, Matanavou, Montes.
 
Racing unsurprisingly making wholesale changes and resting their big guys execpt Lydiate :
 
Dambielle
Vakatawa, Chavancy (cap), Dumoulin, Andreu
Wisniewski, Machenaud
Lydiate, Gerondeau, Lauret
Van der Merwe, Metz
Ducalcon, Lacombe, Khinchagishvili.
 
subs : Szarzewski, Ben Arous, Qovu, Le Roux, Magnaval, Sexton, Fall, Brugnaut.

Toulouse by 15 now

[LeinsterFan4life]

Well done peter laydon, the young irish out half who is on the bench for Stade today.

He was playing in one of the lower AIL divisions last year and is now on the bench against the top14 champs.

[Hound of Harrow]

Results...

Toulouse 30 - 6 Racing Metro
Perpignan 36-13 Grenoble
Oyonnax 24-22 Biarritz
Clermont 55-10 Bayonne
Castres 38-10 Stade Francais
Toulon 62-12 Brive
Bordeaux-Begles 29-36 Montpellier

Clermont, Toulon, Castres & Toulouse make up the top 4. Biarritz and Brive in the bottom two places, and the only teams to have recorded only one win.

[whocares]

Round 5 overview ....

Stade Français 23 – 16 ASM Clermont
Biarritz Olympique 13 – 24 Rugby Club Toulonnais
CA Brive-Corrèze 17 – 10 Aviron Bayonnais
Grenoble 21 – 14 Union Bordeaux-Bègles
Oyonnax 19 – 9 Castres Olympique
Racing Métro 92 19 – 16 Perpignan
Montpellier Hérault Rugby 25 – 0 Stade Toulousain

Standings :
1. Toulon 17
2. Montpellier 16
3. Clermont 15
4. Stade Français 14
5. Racing-Métro 12
6. Oyonnax 12
7. Castres 12
8. Grenoble 12
9. Stade Toulousain
10. USAP 11
11. Bordeaux-Bègles 10
12 Bayonne 10
13 Brive 9
14 Biarritz 6 !!

Fast facts :
- Toulon leading without getting into 2nd gear yet, Matt Giteau very influencial at 10.
- Biarritz already In trouble, could a once Heineken club regular disappear in the proD2?
- racing still underperforming but scrapping wins. Some classy work/ assist from Sexton leading to racing only try.
- Oyonnax still unbeaten at home : after Clermont, Castres has now tasted defeat there.no big names but load of heart and no real weaknesses in their somehow basic rugby. where will they stop?
- team of the weekend : Montpelier with their convincing victory over a full strength but yet uninterested Toulouse team . Trinh Duc has his best game in while but the big performance came from scrummy Jonathan Pelissié. Mark his name and check out his try.

[George Carlin]

Keep it up, WhoCares - great stuff.
 
Are you able to comment on how young Tommy Allan got on at 10 for Perpignan?

[whocares]

Keep it up, WhoCares - great stuff.
 
Are you able to comment on how young Tommy Allan got on at 10 for Perpignan?

Tommaso Allan the fly half? for some reason, I thought he was Italian

he showed some good composure, looks to be serious kicker (scored 11 points) and dedicated in defense. keep in mind that half of this USAP team was 1st starters (a few of them had some very good games) and he was playing behind a dominated pack so he couldnt do much better in my opinion. Perpignan could have got the draw if it was him and not hook kicking the last penalty. Strokosh got injured. dunno how serious it is.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Keep it up, WhoCares - great stuff.
 
Are you able to comment on how young Tommy Allan got on at 10 for Perpignan?

Tommaso Allan the fly half? for some reason, I thought he was Italian

he showed some good composure, looks to be serious kicker (scored 11 points) and dedicated in defense. keep in mind that half of this USAP team was 1st starters (a few of them had some very good games) and he was playing behind a dominated pack so he couldnt do much better in my opinion. Perpignan could have got the draw if it was him and not hook kicking the last penalty. Strokosh got injured. dunno how serious it is.

His mum is, so he's half Italian

[brennomac]

I've now decided that my fav T14 team is Oyonnax. Looked the place up on Google Earth and it seems to be in a lovely spot - between Geneva and Lyon. A real small town team, never heard of most of the team apart from our own Damian Browne!. But jeez they seem to be playing out of their skin at home and the Argie 10 with the unpronounceable name seems to be a pretty decent kicker

Don't think any T14 team is going to fancy playing away at Oyonnax after they've turned over Biarritz, Clermont and Castres.

Whocares, have Biarritz got even worse than last year, and what scam will Blanco dream up to keep them in the T14 if they finish last!

[brennomac]

I've now decided that my fav T14 team is Oyonnax. Looked the place up on Google Earth and it seems to be in a lovely spot - between Geneva and Lyon. A real small town team, never heard of most of the team apart from our own Damian Browne!. But jeez they seem to be playing out of their skin at home and the Argie 10 with the unpronounceable name seems to be a pretty decent kicker

Don't think any T14 team is going to fancy playing away at Oyonnax after they've turned over Biarritz, Clermont and Castres.

Whocares, have Biarritz got even worse than last year, and what scam will Blanco dream up to keep them in the T14 if they finish last!

[whocares]

yes this time it will get tougher for Blanco to pull one of his infamous tricks. he was seen having a rant at the refs last weekend. poor attitude, should be banned for that.
that said it is early days and biarritz can still escape although they have to seriously improve for that. I'd say they are maginally worst than last season but got unlucky with injuries (backline) and the lower ranked teams have improved.

oyonnax argie 10 is quite good, apparently he used to be at harlequins before. some of the other guys are rejects from other teams in france and have something to prove. hell, they were playing with former exeter hooker neil clark and have joe el abd in the ir squad. more dad's army. was impressed by their supporters as well, 20 of them made as much noise as 7000 racing supporters 10 days ago (although racing ones are known for being verrry quiet).

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

yes this time it will get tougher for Blanco to pull one of his infamous tricks. he was seen having a rant at the refs last weekend. poor attitude, should be banned for that.
that said it is early days and biarritz can still escape although they have to seriously improve for that. I'd say they are maginally worst than last season but got unlucky with injuries (backline) and the lower ranked teams have improved.

oyonnax argie 10 is quite good, apparently he used to be at harlequins before. some of the other guys are rejects from other teams in france and have something to prove. hell, they were playing with former exeter hooker neil clark and have joe el abd in the ir squad. more dad's army. was impressed by their supporters as well, 20 of them made as much noise as 7000 racing supporters 10 days ago (although racing ones are known for being verrry quiet).

Clarkey seems to be really enjoying life out there There's another former Exe player in Chad Slade too, altho I'm not sure how much gametime he gets?

[whocares]

Back to put some life in this thread
Watching montpelier hosting current leaders Clermont.
After 30 minutes its Pelissie 23 - Clermont 3. He even scored 2 tries including one on his own. He makes Parra looks like poopie and clermont is just hopeless without Brock James.
If this guy is not on PSA next list, am gonna be very very annoyed!!

[whocares]

Final score 43-3 for Montpelier. Trinh-duc added 2 tries and Pelissie finished with 31 points.

[Artful_Dodger]

Woah, not often you see Clermont Auvergne hammered like that. Montpellier must be on fine form.

[maestegmafia]

That's an amazing result for Montpellier...

[whocares]

Montpelier starting to get some momentum but surely they will lose again in their next away game. That's the problem here, too many one sided affairs at the start of the season. Big teams know they can afford to lose a few and it makes me wish they could just scrap the playoffs altogether to avoid such pedestrian performances like the one we saw from asm today (who actually fielded almost the best team they could).

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