Feel bad for Bradley

First topic message reminder :

Ever since he got the nod over Pac, it feels like this sport is out to get Bradley. And he is a really nice guy.

Latest mess is with the testing for the Marquez fight. Bradley wants VADA, thought he was getting VADA and is getting something far less. Many people question Marquez over his recent beastlyness, and you can say what you want about it, but Tim is a clean fighter who is even going to pay for his own testing with VADA. Can you believe that?!

http://thaboxingvoice.com/Tim-Bradley-On-The-Marquez-Testing-Issue-And-Why-He-Went-Through-With-The-Fight

TopHat24/7 wrote:Yeh, thanks for summarising it all for me though SP.  Been following Gabe Montoya on Twitter but never quite got a handle on the ins and outs.

Any time pal!

It's a mess... even Gabe's article "Chemical Warfare" is like the script of Inception read backwards! So many different levels to it.
 
I've been lucky enough to chat with Gabe and Victor a couple of times (Gabe more so) but generally Victor Conte answers a number of my questions, he's a little evasive to a QnA though - the amount of abuse they both get is unreal. "Boxing fans" blaming Gabe for exposing geared up fighters and trying to ruin the sport. It's sickening!

School Project wrote:When has Moseley completed a VADA test?

Besides, the guy was geared up before, admitted using.

What makes me laugh the most is that, no matter how much of a problem it is in the sport, there will be denialists and others who are happy to contrive the point...

SPORT has a problem with users and distributors of steroids, a couple of sportsmen come forward for testing of the OWN FREE WILL and pay for it themselves with a company with the highest level of anti-doping and instead of having a pat on the back they're laughed at or questioned for their motives?

Woeful.

vs Alvarez.

What makes me laugh is double standards. PED's are rife in boxing, have been for 20 years+, but you can't use that as proof boxers you don't like are juicing.

How can you be so sure that Marquez is doping and Ward isn't? Especially seeing as Ward worked with the biggest drugs cheat in history.

Because Ward now is no different to Ward 5 years ago?

I.e. there is no circumstantial evidence to arouse suspicion - and that's all it is, nobody is certain (mainly because JMM won't 'take the test').

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Bradley's problem is he hasn't got a personality...in a PR age..

Or a following. How many fans did he and Alexander pull in for their fight? Couple of thousand at most?

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

School Project wrote:When has Moseley completed a VADA test?

Besides, the guy was geared up before, admitted using.

What makes me laugh the most is that, no matter how much of a problem it is in the sport, there will be denialists and others who are happy to contrive the point...

SPORT has a problem with users and distributors of steroids, a couple of sportsmen come forward for testing of the OWN FREE WILL and pay for it themselves with a company with the highest level of anti-doping and instead of having a pat on the back they're laughed at or questioned for their motives?

Woeful.

vs Alvarez.

What makes me laugh is double standards. PED's are rife in boxing, have been for 20 years+, but you can't use that as proof boxers you don't like are juicing.

How can you be so sure that Marquez is doping and Ward isn't? Especially seeing as Ward worked with the biggest drugs cheat in history.

Cheers, didn't realise Mosely did the VADA testing.

With all due respect, I've no idea what you mean by "What makes me laugh is double standards. PED's are rife in boxing, have been for 20 years+, but you can't use that as proof boxers you don't like are juicing." Nor the double standards?

Ironically, I'm a HUGE Marquez fan (he's one of my Top 5 fighters to watch) so I'm confused by my using it as proof that he's juicing (fan or not).

I know more than anyone the importance of subtantiation, mitigating evidence and possible litigation so I'm very careful with what I write. But I'll put this in to context for you:

Victor Conte admitted doping, served time and now works as an independent consultant for VADA - he advises them on what to look out for on tests and how not to get beat. He's also paid by Amir Khan/Andre Ward to ensure what items they purchase OFF THE SHELF are safe to use... again, as a consultant. The fighters then sign up for 24/7 testing to ensure there's no anomylies and to ensure they are clean.

Memo Hernandez (also of BALCO fame) was charged and told he can never work with a sportsman again, instead he changes his name and works as a DISTRIBUTOR AND CONDITIONING COACH to some of the biggest names in boxing and athletics... his fighters point blank refuse 24/7 testing and go as far to LEAVE a country to avoid tests.

The difference? Victor Conte has changed his way, simple as that. He's learnt from it, turned a new leaf and is not involved in directly supplying or distributing. VADA CHOSE him to help them as he was the most knowledgable guy in the business and knows how these tests can be beat, VADA (because of their network) are at present, pretty much unbeatable in anti-doping. Memo is the complete opposite.

Ward is clean, Khan is clean, Donaire is clean, Bradley is clean.

School Project wrote:
Ward is clean, Khan is clean, Donaire is clean, Bradley is clean.

You don't know that for certain. Andre Berto worked with Conte at the time he was busted (as an example).
 
Have those fighters always been clean? No-one will ever know. Khan had a career purple patch when working with another of these "conditioners" in Alex Ariza, who also helped faciliate Pacquiao's meteoric rise through the weights. Is that suspicious? I'm not sure. Ariza has now teamed up with Heredia incidentally (I believe there's a video out there of Heredia actually injecting himself with HGH (or possibly EPO).
 
I believe this "war against PEDS" is a pretty fruitless exercise until a single governing body take charge and then implements round year blood testing for all (I know, I won't hold my breath). Chemists will remain one step ahead of testers and fighters will take advantage of that. It is, of course, bad news for the sport (although this isn't a problem exclusive to boxing). Every fighter who pulls off eye-opening wins will be accused. Also, those who fighters associate with will be eyed suspiciously. Great wins will come with an asterix.
 
Unfortunately, there isn't sufficient incentive for stakeholders to implement robust testing (apart from, you know, ethics and morality and whatnot): the fighters have to incur extra expense (which is Ok if you're earning six figure purses but most fighters would be lucky to see a few grand per fight), promoters run the risk of scuppering their own shows (ala Peterson-Khan) -- remember Kid Chocolate's WADA tests being binned and advice administered after Golden Boy had been burned a few times in releasing test samples?
 
Even when fighters are caught, the punishments are absurd: a six month ban is meaningless to most headline acts; in the UK, fighters have had bans reduced for fingering other cheats. From a business perspective, it suits nobody to ban fighters for life (or for long, meaningful periods). Sanctioning bodies, promoters, managers -- they all earn from fighters fighting. Should the networks have afforded Berto a big payday after his ban? Did they care?
 
Look at Erik Morales, what use was a state ban in the US? He merely scoffed at it -- knowing full well he could pack out a venue in Mexico AND NO-ONE WOULD STOP HIM.
 
The only thing that is likely to bring about a revolution in thinking -- other than the practice of fighters now suing previous opponents who subsequently test positive for damages -- on PED is a fighter being killed or seriously maimed in the ring (with the other fighter then testing positive).
 
How sad is that?

quality debate gents, good work

Ward is clean, Khan is clean, Donaire is clean, Bradley is clean.

You simply do not know this.

Double standards - Conte and 'Hernandez' are both proven drugs cheats. Why do you believe Conte's fighters to be clean and Hernandez's not, especially seeing as Berto has already been found out. Who would believe the word of the biggest liar in the history of sport. What fighter would employ a guy who's CV reads 'PED's and jail', for innocent reasons?

When you have done the amount of research I have done (and no doubt a number of guys on this board can vouch for me when it comes to the subject) then I'm confident in my thoughts that those guys are clean.

You can point to Berto but the positive result showed traces of nandrotestosterone. Trace's in which were in the lower parts of per-trillion.

Nandrolone shows in the system for 18-24months after usage as the metabolic byproduct "nandrotestosterone", even then the results would have been a lot higher than identified. It was picked up by, none other than VADA themselves. They deemed the amount too small to have been taken knowingly and deemed it consistant with contamination. No other synthetics or duiretics were found in his system...

They identified the smallest possible trace... put this in to consideration:

If USADA or any State Athletic commision had done the tests, they would never have been picked up. If VADA were able to identify the most minute of traces of nandrolone how easy would it be for them to find synthetics which have knowingly been taken and any masking products?

ANY products taken, via trace or knowingly sticks out like a fart in a lift for VADA. But they are able to identify the amount taken and possible products that may contain this.

Berto never tested positive for STEROIDS, he tested positive for the smallest and meager amount of a (with credible evidence) trace substance.

Berto was not fined, nor banned from boxing. Still a drug cheat?

Also, to reiterate an earlier point (again)... Victor Conte doesn't supply or produce any suppliments for the fighters he works with.

Heredia does.

Imagine a convicted pick-pocket giving advice to police in London to prevent pick-pocketing... he's served his time, and is using his knowledge to help.

Heredia is bragging about how easy it is to beat USADA.

Regardless of the point I seem to be failing to show a couple of people - Timothy Bradley has welcomed VADA to test him at any given time.

With VADA's track record, if there is the smallest of substance found, they will find it.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Because Ward now is no different to Ward 5 years ago?

I.e. there is no circumstantial evidence to arouse suspicion - and that's all it is, nobody is certain (mainly because JMM won't 'take the test').

I agree fully, it's what i've been saying all along, we don't who is and who isn't doping but there are strong suspicions around certain fighters. Donaire and Bradley could be the worst of the lot for all I know but people are not suspicious of either because of the lengths they have gone to prove they're clean. Marquez and Pacquiao among others have done nothing to alleviate certain opinions of them. For the record i'm not accusing anyone of anything, I hope they're all clean but the probability is that boxing is as rife with doping as every other high profile sport.

I hope VADA testing is as good as you believe it to be. Timothy Bradley and Donaire should be applauded for their voluntary testing.

As for Conte and Heredia they are both a massive disgrace to sport as a whole and neither should be anywhere near boxing, and especially individual fighters. Any boxer that actively recruits the 'help' of these two quite rightly has a big question mark over their head.