Tuesday qualifiers

First topic message reminder :

Macedonia vs Scotland (7:30)
Wales vs Serbia (7:45)
Ukraine vs England (7:45)
Austria vs ROI (7:45)

As a welsh man i'm not holding out for too much against Serbia. We're without joniesta and williams so it means there's even more pressure on Ramsey to pull something out the bag again. Hopefully Coleman's team selection and tactics improve and we're more positive against Serbia. If we'd gone for it we would've won in Macedonia. Fingers crossed bale get's 15 mins at least.

Tough games for England and ROI, I expect England to get a point at least or maybe sneak a win.

owen10ozzy wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Hhahahahaha! I would have taken your first comment slightly serious had you not come out with the tripe you spewed in the second.

Tear apart may have been an overstatement but I would hedge my money on Belgium beating England at the moment.

Just what makes you think we are capable of beating the likes of Holland, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain etc *which we would inevitably have to do to get the final against Brazil/Germany?

We haven't beaten a 'top class' team in a major tournament since Argentina in 2002 (Thanks to a Beckham Penalty) ....before that...1996 Holland ....that's 2 top class competitive wins in 16 years!? And were getting to a World Cup final next year!! Ha!

Didn't Holland have a worse Euro 2012 than us, losing to Denmark?
Aren't the Argies overly reliant on Messi who, like Rooney, never really performs for his country?
Weren't France and Italy unable to beat an injury-ridden England last summer?
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?

Oh and I would say a semi-final should be England's aim next summer, but we are perfectly capable of going all the way.

Have Holland failed to qualify for a major final lately?! Nope didn't think so...did they make the last World Cup Final...Yes..

Argentina - Over reliant on Messi...yet he hasn't performed for his country...though they still managed to go further than us in the last World Cup...not sure what your point is here.

Weren't England unable to beat an aging and national team in transformation in Italy and a France team which self implodes at every opportunity?

What you mean make the England players chase shadows for 90 minutes...and if they are unable to put the ball past us in normal time...tire us out and inevitably beat us on penalties?

1) Euro 2012 was more recent and more relevant.
2) Argentina got put out in the last world cup to the same team England lost to. Only Argentina got beaten far more convincingly.
3) The same Italy that beat Germany?
4) England still topped the group.

Italy for one

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

Duty281 wrote: Then, would there be a better team than England to hit Spain on the counter-attack and take the one chance when it counts?

I think there would be at least several.

Germany I would say would do it better than England...

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:Duty your optimism with the National team is part of the problem, the issues within the English game are deep rooted, they're embedded and qualifying for the World Cup will simply those like minded to yourself but in positions of power within the FA to continue to paper over the cracks, bury their heads in the sand, put their fingers in their ears and whistle whilst the rest of Europe leave us 20 years in the past.

Well the FA are certainly making steps to improve our youth structure. Small steps certainly, but we're getting there.

I've taken my son along to coaching with 3 Premier League clubs in the past 6 months, some of the training methods that they still have 7 year olds do wouldn't have been seen on the continent since the 80s.

Our players were able to maintain the ball better 30 years ago than they do today. Footballers like Beardsley, Barnes, Waddle, and Gazza were just more comfortable on the ball than today's so called great players.

GSC wrote:Welbeck is crap also

someone better tell him that so he get's rid of this nasty goal scoring habit he seems to have picked up over summer.

I agree with GSC.

Welbeck scores against minnows of no quality and people start raving about him. He can't finish at all, it's embarrassing sometimes watching him in front of goal. Yeah, he's a good attacking left sided player, with great work rate but would he be effective against top class opposition.....no!

As for last night, just appalling. Why we continue to be so negative, invite unnecessary pressure upon ourselves and then isolate our strikers is beyond me.

I kind of wish we had to win last night to go top of the group. We may have approached the game differently!

I have allways said hodgson has done ok for england. And has clearly got a very good win/draw to loss recrd. But he is so backwards!

Evereyone was saying our style was only for the euro cup.. And Hidgson would push on after. AS IF!!! we are the same hard to beat team lacking in invention as we were during that cup

I think Welbeck will prove many wrong this season. He was actually superb for utd last season. Ok the goals weren't there and as a striker that's what your job is, but, his performances were outstanding and he completely tormented Madrid over two legs, scoring an excellent header in the 1st. This season he's scored a few times, against Swansea highlighted how he's clearly worked on his game, being in the 6 yard area for the tap ins and for the second, showed just what a class act he is.

Sturridge is finally being played down the middle and is thriving now. Let's not forget, when he was being played out wide, people criticized him for not scoring enough. Similarly, Welbeck was played out wide allot last season, and he did a good job but as a player still developing, to then ask him to score 15-20 goals was never going to happen.

He's been played down the middle so far this season and he's already shown that his finishing has improved. Why slate a guy who is showing such promise. His foot work and technical ability is superb. Fans should get behind players like this rather than write them off as 'scoring against minnows'. Fact is, he's scoring and that's all that matters. He can't win, if he's not scoring he's not a good striker, he starts scoring and it's 'only against minnows so doesn't really count'. Crazy! as a welsh fan I would kill for someone of Welbeck's ability to be up front for us and from a utd point of view, I'm always happy to see him on the team sheet.

John wrote:I agree with GSC.

Welbeck scores against minnows of no quality and people start raving about him. He can't finish at all, it's embarrassing sometimes watching him in front of goal. Yeah, he's a good attacking left sided player, with great work rate but would he be effective against top class opposition.....no!

As for last night, just appalling. Why we continue to be so negative, invite unnecessary pressure upon ourselves and then isolate our strikers is beyond me.

Go and tell that to Real Madrid, he was the best player on the pitch for two legs until Nani got sent off, he was the biggest attacking threat whilst containing Alonso. Quite clearly Ferguson, Moyes and Hodgson know less about him than some on here.

Your a United supporter and you obviously are going to be biased. Welbeck is a poor finisher, fact. Yeah, he might have played well in those games but that's just a couple of games n that's because of his work-rate, desire n energy more than his actual goal scoring. Yeah, he scored a header but his actual finishing with his feet is appalling. I was judging him on goal-scoring and agreeing with GSC. Outside the box, he's a great player to have, inside the box, he isn't. That becomes an issue in tight games with maybe one chance that falls to him. Also, of course Hodgson is going to adore him because he offers all the attributes needed for a defensive wide man, just like Milner. Roy's negative tactics bloody hell, but thats another story.

Another story was France's second-half turnaround away to Belarus in Tuesday's World Cup qualifier which was inspired by Manchester United defender Patrice Evra, who gave a rousing half-time speech despite being on the bench for the whole match.

"Patrice gave a good speech in the dressing room, a man's speech. He said we had to play, to relax," team-mate Franck Ribery said.

France winger Mathieu Valbuena added that there was a "great silence in the locker room" at first. "The message from Patrice Evra buoyed us," Valbuena said. France, trailing 1-0 at half-time, won 4-2 to keep alive their hopes of qualifying

Another reason why Moyes would of been stupid to get rid of him for Coentrao.

I agree, I think Welbeck does need to continue to work on his finishing. He'll never be a Michael Owen, but for me he is capable of getting 15 goals a season. His assisting is also quite an underrated part of his game:

2011/12 - 15 goals 5 assists in all competitions
2012/13 - 7 goals 8 assists in all compeitions

Ok, there was a lack of goals last season, but as I said, he's been played out wide in many games and done a good job. 8 assists is actually a good return.

I think he's in a similar boat to Sturridge in his Chelsea days in where his talent allows him to play out wide and do a job, but his best position is down the middle, where Sturridge is thriving now, and where Welbeck has got his goals this season.

mystiroakey wrote:I kind of wish we had to win last night to go top of the group. We may have approached the game differently!

I have allways said hodgson has done ok for england. And has clearly got a very good win/draw to loss recrd. But he is so backwards!

Evereyone was saying our style was only for the euro cup.. And Hidgson would push on after. AS IF!!! we are the same hard to beat team lacking in invention as we were during that cup

Yesterday cannot be an accurate reflection of England's 'invention', surely? Missing Rooney, Welbeck, Sturridge, Carroll, and, I suspect, a fully-fit Wilshere.

A draw away against Ukraine isnt a bad result, but the performance was typical of England - bland and uninspiring.
As I've said before, England are a hard team to beat but also a hard team to lose against.
It wont surprise me if they are sent packing from Brazil next year at the back of another shootout defeat.

J.Benson II wrote:A draw away against Ukraine isnt a bad result, but the performance was typical of England - bland and uninspiring.
As I've said before, England are a hard team to beat but also a hard team to lose against.
It wont surprise me if they are sent packing from Brazil next year at the back of another shootout defeat.

Exactly why I think we've got an excellent chance next summer. Disappointing that 3, possibly 4, key attackers were missing yesterday - it would have probably made the difference between 1 point and 3 for England.

Don't give duty the ammunition to begin his 'we can win the wc next year' garbage.

Even if we had rooney, welbeck the tactics would of been the same. total negativity. we had rooney and welbeck for the games away at poland & montenegro.....what happened? Dull, shocking, negative, dire performances and we drew both times. As I said before, Ukraine (a team with basically two wingers and thats it) went to montenegro and attacked. Guess what, they won 4-1. We went to Montenegro, Roy s**t his pants, put out a negative team, we defended, played horrific, let a goal in and our whole, lets win 1-0 tactic went completely out the window....roy was in a mess in that second half! Ukraine made Montenegro look like what they are.....appalling. We went there and made them look like contenders for the group.

England are a mess, no two ways about it. We're struggling against minnows, we've only beaten San ******* Marino & Moldova. What happense when we get quality teams in the group in Brazil.....I dread to think. Embarrassing.

John wrote:Don't give duty the ammunition to begin his 'we can win the wc next year' garbage.

Even if we had rooney, welbeck the tactics would of been the same. total negativity. we had rooney and welbeck for the games away at poland & montenegro.....what happened? Dull, shocking, negative, dire performances and we drew both times. As I said before, Ukraine (a team with basically two wingers and thats it) went to montenegro and attacked. Guess what, they won 4-1. We went to Montenegro, Roy s**t his pants, put out a negative team, we defended, played horrific, let a goal in and our whole, lets win 1-0 tactic went completely out the window....roy was in a mess in that second half! Ukraine made Montenegro look like what they are.....appalling. We went there and made them look like contenders for the group.

England are a mess, no two ways about it. We're struggling against minnows, we've only beaten San ******* Marino & Moldova. What happense when we get quality teams in the group in Brazil.....I dread to think. Embarrassing.

We can win it, just we shouldn't expect to do it. Reaching the quarter-finals would be par (as ever), but getting to the semi-finals, and possibly beyond, should be the real aim next year for Hodgson and England.

If we make the last 4, England can give themselves a pat on the back.

Basically Hodgson's WC plan

Win the first group game 1-0
Win the second group game 1-0
Win the third group game 1-0
Win the second round game 1-0
Win the quarter final game 1-0
Win the semi final game 1-0
Win the final 1-0

Reality

Attempt to win the first game 1-0 but it's the first game, Roy's nervous and we can't afford to lose the opening game. Ends 0-0

Second game, after some media scutiny & fan negativity, Roy decides to implement a more attacking tactic. We luckily win 1-0

Third game, Roy decides to stick with the last game tactic and we win 1-0 and qualify but only as runners-up, due to goal difference.

Second round knockout game comes around. Roy is nervous as defeat here could signal an early exit. Roy goes back to the negative, defensive tactic, aimed at winning 1-0. It's a tight game, no quality and goes to penalties. We're up against a better quality of player here and they execute good penalties. Our players walk up and **** their pants. We miss three penalties and exit the world cup in the second round.

Oh dear. What a surprise.

Roy Hodgson has England playing to their strengths. Roy Hodgson is the hope beyond despair.

Our strengths are outdated and insufficient

I'm sure you can beat Luxembourg!

Duty Lad. Don't listen to all this pessimism mate. Keep that glass half FULL lad!!

This place can be very grey after an england draw! We are still England and what ever we do they DESERVE SUPPORT.. So what if we aren't the best.

Not everyone is a Man U , barca or bayern fan at club level either.

BTW I don't buy that hodgson is decent. I would rather win more and lose more and play attractive football. which could be done no problem with a different manager. I dont hate hodgson btw. Nice enough lad and good manager. Just not the style I want. I would rather the players not look so scared. Go out there and play like they do for there clubs. Managing england isnt about tactics anymore. Its about man management.

I heard someone say our players don't care as much about england as they do there clubs. TBH I look at most of them in the other way. They are to scared and pressured to play football.

Duty281 wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:A draw away against Ukraine isnt a bad result, but the performance was typical of England - bland and uninspiring.
As I've said before, England are a hard team to beat but also a hard team to lose against.
It wont surprise me if they are sent packing from Brazil next year at the back of another shootout defeat.

Exactly why I think we've got an excellent chance next summer. Disappointing that 3, possibly 4, key attackers were missing yesterday - it would have probably made the difference between 1 point and 3 for England.

I agree that England have a chance of winning the WC. After all, England are amoungst the top dozen or so sides in the world and due to the cup based format of the tournament, I think any of those 12 or so sides could potentially win the tournament with a favourable draw and a bit (or a lot) of luck along the way.

The WC isnt a league where the best team will necessarily win the tournament and as we've seen with Wigan in last season's FA cup and Chelsea in the Champions League two seasons back, anything can happen in Cup tournaments.

However, I think an England WC win is highly unlikely.
Although England may be a pretty tough team to beat, they also have great difficutly winning games. Historically, teams that are draw specialists dont tend to win major tournaments.

The funny thing about England is they actually look a very useful team whenever they find themselves behind and have to force the game (Euro 2012 against Sweden and the recent Brazil friendly highlighted this).
However, whenever they are in a winning position they get ultra negative and just try to sit on the lead, inviting the opponents to push them further back and allow wave after wave of attacks.
I am sure they will do this in Brazil and it will end up costing them.

England may have had players missing against Ukraine, but thats football. Very rarely do teams go into games or tournaments at full strength. I'm sure Ukraine probably had a few of their usual starters out as well.
Anyway, Rooney was the only player missing from that game who is the genuine, world-class, game changer. If players as average as Wellbeck and Carroll are considered "key players" then that is a poor reflection of the current England squad.

There's about as much chance of Scotland reaching the WC as England have of winning it, absolutely zero chance, you can't win a world cup with ten men behind the ball. That's against mediocre teams, plus you still have to reach it first which still hangs in the balance.

I would safely say that england have a much better chance of winning a world cup than scotland have of qualifying.

england approx 15/1 to win a cup

scotland 100/1 to qualify.

Sorry Monty but that is the truth of it.

mystiroakey wrote:I would safely say that england have a much better chance of winning a world cup than scotland have of qualifying.

england approx 15/1 to win a cup

scotland 100/1 to qualify.

Sorry Monty but that is the truth of it.

I agree, Scotland are just so bad that they 0 chance of reaching any international tournament. They always seem to lose so some very poor team at home every qualifying campaign that ruins their chances halfway through qualification.

I would say on their day, England can beat any team in the world. It doesn't matter if you've underachieved in the past, if you can have your day, roll with the momentum, then England can pull it off and go all the way.

England could take heart from Italy in 2006, Germany in 2002 (despite the p!ss easy draw), or even England's campaign at Italia 90.

As far as qualification is going currently, England can consider themselves unlucky to have drawn all 4 games. They should have put Montenegro out of sight in the first half, they should have put in 3 or 4 in the home game against Ukraine, and they should have had a late penalty in the Poland game.

Despite all of this, England are top of the group and unbeaten, and wil make it to Brazil. And when you're at the World Cup, you're only 7 games from glory and luck can play a big a part as any other (South Korea 2002). I think it would benefit England if they have a heavyweight in their group alongside them, as England nearly always do better in tournaments when they have a top team in their group - Holland at WC 90 and Euro 96, and Argentina in 2002, or even France in 2004 and 2012 - than when they have an 'easy' group - 2006 or 2010 being prominent examples.

I remember what this forum was like during Euro 2012. Pre-tournament it was mostly "England are rubbish and will be lucky to make it out of the group" but by the time the group stage was over, the general opinion appeared to be that England would beat Italy and might even go all the way. I expect it to be of a similar likeness next summer, not just on this forum but with the general media and expectations of the fans.

And that's where Roy Hodgson comes in; he is fantastic at managing expectations and keeping England level-headed. Equally, he has distilled such a sense of pride in this team, and such a sense of togetherness, that has meant this England team is actually a team for the first time since Euro 96. This isn't like the golden generation, a mixture of individuals all trying to be heroes, this is a team that are together and are just the right mix. Furthermore, Hodgson is playing 3 in the middle. Very simple, but it's something English football should have been doing for decades. Not like in 2010, when England were playing 2 in the middle and getting overrun. I really do believe Roy Hodgson is the best manager of England since Sir Bobby Robson. Roy knows when to roll the dice (starting Oxlade v France, throwing Walcott and Carroll on against Italy after an hour), or when to stick to his guns (this week against Ukraine securing a vital point).

The perfect manager for the perfect team. The perfect blend. England.

Neither have any chance at the moment

9/10 the best sides walk all over England.

If saying England can beat anyone makes you feel better then so be it. But in competitive fixtures it doesn't happen often

GSC

I take it this 9 out of 10 has randomly popped into your head. With no bearing on what actually happens..

GSC wrote:9/10 the best sides walk all over England.

If saying England can beat anyone makes you feel better then so be it. But in competitive fixtures it doesn't happen often

To be fair apart from a few tournaments all tournaments in the last 20 years have resulted in england getting a draw and being put out on penalties.

It is not like we are losing every tournament in the group stages or knock outs easily.

He is talking nonsense Champagne. England rarely ever get walked over. Its as rare as hens teeth!

When we go out we go out fighting. and never get smashed or walked over

GSC wrote:9/10 the best sides walk all over England.

If saying England can beat anyone makes you feel better then so be it. But in competitive fixtures it doesn't happen often

No it doesn't happen regularly enough. That's simply because England are the biggest underachievers in world football, who never convert their potential and ability into results. I mean you look at the last 11 years, and the major teams England have played in tournaments, then it reads as a horror story of poor officiating (Portugal 2004, Germany 2010) and injuries (Brazil 2002, Portugal 2004 and 2006, France and Italy 2012). Oh and a few penalties!

Excuses are hollow

But truthful.

Not really. England were outplayed on nearly every occasion.

Last time we beat a top side in competitive play was Argentina in 2002. Over 11 years ago by my calculators reckoning. We regress more and more by the year.

I would like to hear about these games(90%) when we get walked over tbh..

GSC wrote:Not really. England were outplayed on nearly every occasion.

Last time we beat a top side in competitive play was Argentina in 2002. Over 11 years ago by my calculators reckoning. We regress more and more by the year.

You are just talking total nonsense mate.

You have to back up that we get walked over by these teams 9 out of 10. Stop changing the goal posts

Who have we beaten in competitive games since 2002 then Myst. Not many big names in there.

you said we are walked over 9 out of 10 games against the top sides.

when are we ever walked over?

We normally go down fighting and in many cases we could have progressed with a bit of luck or a decent ref decision or a won pen shout out. This is the reality.

I am not saying we are a great team. We are not. But we are never walked over.

We are always very tough to beat. The last time I would say we were well beaten in a competitive match was v germany- However in the first half we got badly reffed in regards to lamps non goal. That is the only game I can think of as getting beaten well and there were still question marks over it.

We are no spain, brazil, argentina, italy or germany. But so what . Not one of those nations is so competitive at so many sports as we are.

I think its time people just accepted what we are and stopped the hyperbole either way.

What do other sports have to do with anything?

If we were competitive we'd have won of these games. If you take not being thrashed 5-0 as competitive then all power to you

Just stop the hyperbole and get over it. We are never ever walked over.

Whats the 5-0 nonsense all about.

Anyway come on.. back it up- name the 90% off games when england are walked over!

mystiroakey wrote:Just stop the hyperbole and get over it. We are never ever walked over.

To be fair, Germany did in 2010 and Italy in 2012. I know Italy only beat us on pens, but they were pretty much all over us. Cannot think of any others?  

italy beat us on pens(you could say we got outplayed playing and possession wise but not in the real sense of actual football!!) and we had a disallowed goal v germany- and that is a game i mentioned anyway.

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:9/10 the best sides walk all over England.

If saying England can beat anyone makes you feel better then so be it. But in competitive fixtures it doesn't happen often

No it doesn't happen regularly enough. That's simply because England are the biggest underachievers in world football, who never convert their potential and ability into results. I mean you look at the last 11 years, and the major teams England have played in tournaments, then it reads as a horror story of poor officiating (Portugal 2004, Germany 2010) and injuries (Brazil 2002, Portugal 2004 and 2006, France and Italy 2012). Oh and a few penalties!

I don't think you can use injuries as bad luck. As I've said in my previous post, most teams go into major tournaments without their full strength squad and with the occassional semi-fit players. England arent the exception in that regards.

As for the poor officiating, England have been unlucky in some cases but also forunate in others. I remember the QF game against Spain in Euro 96 in which some very dubious decisions went against Spain. Also, lets not forget the famous WC 2002 qualifier against Greece in which Beckham scored from a last minute free kick that should never have been given in the first place.
These things can cut both ways.

It's not the results that are the main worry, but the football we are playing. Everything is so sloooooow compared to the EPL. Get the ball out wide, fill the box and and take risks.

Scrapping the barrel there to find luck.. even though neither was.

football is played over the whole game- it doesn't matter when you score.

Well i would argue that our results(at the moment) is deffo something to worry about.

The 4 draws in 8 games is shocking tbh. Why the heck has hodgson continued this tourny approach into the qualifying is beyond me. These teams are not ITALYS!!!

We did get a bit lucky in that Spain game. They had a goal disallowed which was a yard on side.