Do you want a European Cup

First topic message reminder :

Financial stipulations and other arguments aside, do you want a European Rugby Cup?

Do you want to see your team battling the BEST teams in Europe or not?

I think listening to the logical, well-reasoned arguments of the Pro12 supporters, I have changed my previously club orientated view about the HC – it’s not about the best clubs in Europe, it’s about financially protecting the professional sides of the 6 richest Unions in Europe.

So with this in mind I want similar levels of participation extended to the French and English clubs. The Welsh get 75%, the Irish get 75%, the Scots and Italians get 100% whilst the English get 50% and the French get 43% (and I’m being fair in this as I’m not including the second tier French and English professional sides), so I expect at least 75% of the English premier sides being ‘invited’ to take part, so 9 English clubs and 10 French clubs from now on?

Surely that’s fair?

doctor_grey wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think there are the financial resources in the Celtic League unions to finance a larger Euro competition including Tier 2 countries.  I would really like to see it happen because growing Rugby in Romania, Georgia, Russia, and Spain (for instance) would be great in the long run.  But that might take a decade to make it self sustaining and competitive.  So for the short term we are stuck with each other.

The Celtic Unions have done such a fantastic job aiding the Italians progress to become a decent force in European Rugby.


Maybe the RP12 competition should grow to encompass a few Romanian, Georgian, Spanish, Russian teams over the next few seasons. I can't see how it would be detrimental in any way to do so. Maybe form a to Tier RP12 league.

Ulster Rugby's full title is "The Ulster branch of the IRFU"

All players inc NIQ players are contracted to the Irfu.

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think there are the financial resources in the Celtic League unions to finance a larger Euro competition including Tier 2 countries.  I would really like to see it happen because growing Rugby in Romania, Georgia, Russia, and Spain (for instance) would be great in the long run.  But that might take a decade to make it self sustaining and competitive.  So for the short term we are stuck with each other.

The Celtic Unions have done such a fantastic job aiding the Italians progress to become a decent force in European Rugby.


Maybe the RP12 competition should grow to encompass a few Romanian, Georgian, Spanish, Russian teams over the next few seasons. I can't see how it would be detrimental in any way to do so. Maybe form a to Tier RP12 league.

Theoretically that would be a good idea, although there would need to be money raised somehow to make it a realistic possiblity. I read on another HEC type thread something about the Spainish wanting to enter a 'super team' featuring the best their league had to offer, but they couldn't afford the traveling costs etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think there are the financial resources in the Celtic League unions to finance a larger Euro competition including Tier 2 countries.  I would really like to see it happen because growing Rugby in Romania, Georgia, Russia, and Spain (for instance) would be great in the long run.  But that might take a decade to make it self sustaining and competitive.  So for the short term we are stuck with each other.

The Celtic Unions have done such a fantastic job aiding the Italians progress to become a decent force in European Rugby.


Maybe the RP12 competition should grow to encompass a few Romanian, Georgian, Spanish, Russian teams over the next few seasons. I can't see how it would be detrimental in any way to do so. Maybe form a to Tier RP12 league.

Theoretically that would be a good idea, although there would need to be money raised somehow to make it a realistic possiblity.  I read on another HEC type thread something about the Spainish wanting to enter a 'super team' featuring the best their league had to offer, but they couldn't afford the traveling costs etc.

I am not sure what the italians did to finance their particular participation, and if like any other business in Italy it would be bloody hard work to find out.

But I am guessing their travel arrangements were also the most daunting financial concern. They have to travel further and more regularly than anyone else involved.

I like the idea that the third tier(non Rabo/Av/Top14 teams) competition taking place in September so that winners/top teams qualify for the second tier competition

broadlandboy wrote:I like the idea that the third tier(non Rabo/Av/Top14 teams) competition taking place in September so that winners/top teams qualify for the second tier competition

Playoffs for qualification to the larger tournament work well in soccer, the same could work in rugby.

Ok for teams not in leagues of 12 or more as I believe that they play enough games already with their participation in European comps.
Third tier comp run similar to World Cup to reduce traveling costs,if more than 1 team needed in tier two comp have different comps with winners qualifying,reduce traveling costs more.Those teams that qualify for tier two comp should have financial help to pay traveling costs

Ulster Rugby's full title is "The Ulster branch of the IRFU"

Thanks Jenifer.

If the RFU had that much control over the professional game in England I would be very worried. Your 'Blazers' must be made of better stuff than our 'Old Farts'.

TrailApe wrote:

Ulster Rugby's full title is "The Ulster branch of the IRFU"

Thanks Jenifer.

If the RFU had that much control over the professional game in England I would be very worried. Your 'Blazers' must be made of better stuff than our 'Old Farts'.

Hmmm. Dunno about that.

They have the good of the game at heart in fairness to them. But they are from another era in many ways. Joe Schmidt got them to take a hard look at themselves re. being an amateur organisation running a pro game.

TrailApe wrote:I think listening to the logical, well-reasoned arguments of the Pro12 supporters, I have changed my previously club orientated view about the HC – it’s not about the best clubs in Europe, it’s about financially protecting the professional sides of the 6 richest Unions in Europe.

So with this in mind I want similar levels of participation extended to the French and English clubs. The Welsh get 75%, the Irish get 75%, the Scots and Italians get 100% whilst the English get 50% and the French get 43% (and I’m being fair in this as I’m not including the second tier French and English professional sides), so I expect at least 75% of the English premier sides being ‘invited’ to take part, so 9 English clubs and 10 French clubs from now on?

Surely that’s fair?

That seems fair and reasonable. Why not? Don't think the PRL or LNR would agree to that though, they want to make the competition smaller not bigger.

Pot Hale wrote:

TrailApe wrote:I think listening to the logical, well-reasoned arguments of the Pro12 supporters, I have changed my previously club orientated view about the HC – it’s not about the best clubs in Europe, it’s about financially protecting the professional sides of the 6 richest Unions in Europe.

So with this in mind I want similar levels of participation extended to the French and English clubs. The Welsh get 75%, the Irish get 75%, the Scots and Italians get 100% whilst the English get 50% and the French get 43% (and I’m being fair in this as I’m not including the second tier French and English professional sides), so I expect at least 75% of the English premier sides being ‘invited’ to take part, so 9 English clubs and 10 French clubs from now on?

Surely that’s fair?

That seems fair and reasonable.  Why not?  Don't think the PRL or LNR would agree to that though, they want to make the competition smaller not bigger.  

And when the French expand the T14 to 16 teams, or the RFU decide to allow another two teams into the AP, then ring fence it? What happens then? Scotland have 100% now only thru misfortune - when the ERC was constituted, we had 50%, but sadly two of the pro-districts were not ongoing financial concerns

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

TrailApe wrote:I think listening to the logical, well-reasoned arguments of the Pro12 supporters, I have changed my previously club orientated view about the HC – it’s not about the best clubs in Europe, it’s about financially protecting the professional sides of the 6 richest Unions in Europe.

So with this in mind I want similar levels of participation extended to the French and English clubs. The Welsh get 75%, the Irish get 75%, the Scots and Italians get 100% whilst the English get 50% and the French get 43% (and I’m being fair in this as I’m not including the second tier French and English professional sides), so I expect at least 75% of the English premier sides being ‘invited’ to take part, so 9 English clubs and 10 French clubs from now on?

Surely that’s fair?

That seems fair and reasonable.  Why not?  Don't think the PRL or LNR would agree to that though, they want to make the competition smaller not bigger.  

And when the French expand the T14 to 16 teams, or the RFU decide to allow another two teams into the AP, then ring fence it?  What happens then?  Scotland have 100% now only thru misfortune - when the ERC was constituted, we had 50%, but sadly two of the pro-districts were not ongoing financial concerns

Then most likely, everyone who thought this break away was the greatest thing since Mrs Pride started wielding her bread knife pre-sale will say something along the lines of "oh bugger" as the game of rugby turns in to a circus.

maestegmafia wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:All this bickering....

Honestly... Maybe I am oversimplifying things but how is equal qualification rules for all 3 leagues and the revenue split evenly between all 3 leagues being unfair?

Every club gets an equal share... am I missing something here?

Because one league contains the majority of the nations involved.

Aaaah I see. And you want to protect the Pro12 clubs getting 54% of the revenue... only the unions get the money and not the clubs. And we all know how well the regions are funded and controlled by them. I would have thought you`d be more supportive of the regions being more financially independant of Roger Lewis pyramid schemes.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

TrailApe wrote:I think listening to the logical, well-reasoned arguments of the Pro12 supporters, I have changed my previously club orientated view about the HC – it’s not about the best clubs in Europe, it’s about financially protecting the professional sides of the 6 richest Unions in Europe.

So with this in mind I want similar levels of participation extended to the French and English clubs. The Welsh get 75%, the Irish get 75%, the Scots and Italians get 100% whilst the English get 50% and the French get 43% (and I’m being fair in this as I’m not including the second tier French and English professional sides), so I expect at least 75% of the English premier sides being ‘invited’ to take part, so 9 English clubs and 10 French clubs from now on?

Surely that’s fair?

That seems fair and reasonable.  Why not?  Don't think the PRL or LNR would agree to that though, they want to make the competition smaller not bigger.  

And when the French expand the T14 to 16 teams, or the RFU decide to allow another two teams into the AP, then ring fence it?  What happens then?  Scotland have 100% now only thru misfortune - when the ERC was constituted, we had 50%, but sadly two of the pro-districts were not ongoing financial concerns

So when the ERC was constituted the situation was fair but now it is not so the rules need to be changed.

I am not sure misfortune is the word I would use with regard to the demise of the two Scottish regions. Was it ever sensible for Scotland to have four teams compared to England's twelve when it has less than a tenth of the population.

maesteg wrote:the greatest thing since Mrs Pride started wielding her bread knife

Comic genius.  

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

maesteg wrote:the greatest thing since Mrs Pride started wielding her bread knife

Comic genius.  

I wasn't sure anyone would remember who mother pride was?

yeah if the breakaway happens we need to try and the south african teams involved. It makes much more sense than them playing for a sanzar run club comp, the time difference must be killing it commercially for them.

"Scotland have 100% now only thru misfortune"


thats a really silly argument- no they have 2 pro teams because they cannot sustain more. It's not bad luck, its life .That is a really dangerous path and ironic..


what about the teams that miss out ever year from the ap and 14 , there are also surely never in the EC due to misfortune!!


those pro outfits surely need to be included under your argument.

mystiroakey wrote:yeah if the breakaway happens we need to try and the south african teams involved. It makes much more sense than them playing for a sanzar run club comp, the time difference must be killing it commercially for them.

Thats not going to happen. You do need a bit or reality on this. the PRL propaganda machine keeps suggesting this or that union will join the RCC however every time the unions involved say its not happening. the RCC is dead in he water. the only european cup will be a compromise one not too far away from what we have now.

off course it could eventually happen..

you are talking nonsense if you think it couldn't, europe is the home of sport and the home of business and sport!! we can make things very attractive and very commercially viable to anyone..If we took away conflicting parties and just concentrated on branding and quality(immaterial of where it came from)

Yeah right. No way on earth are the SA teams going to ruin the curie cup and the super 15 to play a meaningless club comp in Europe.

Maybe you fail to see in to a possible future and you fail to understand the commercial viability of a european market- It could potentially swallow world club  rugby as football has also.

And dont confuse what i am saying as what i want. Just what could potentially happen

Oh dear, folk are still going round in circles, neither side can win the debate, both have merits.

Ultimately top down elitist structures are high risk with limited life spans unless extremely lucky with consistently top class management. Bottom up structures diversify risk with variety of approaches that are credible for fans and owners alike.

Whatever agreement is reached, it will only paper over the cracks till the next round of negotiations. The R12 priority has to be to make their league financially viable to address the current imbalance.

The AP need to address the capital expenditure for stadia as no local govt. subsidy is available. The T14 need to address salary caps and FQ players at the clubs. That has to be the focus over the next few years as the professional game continues to evolve.

TJ wrote:Yeah right.  No way on earth are the SA teams going to ruin the curie cup and the super 15 to play a meaningless club comp in Europe.  

And more importantly, I don't see the SARU putting the Springboks in jeopardy by signing up to anything the IRB haven't rubber stamped. Money talks, but the global game is still union-run.

Recwatcher wrote:Oh dear, folk are still going round in circles,  neither side can win the debate,  both have merits.

Ultimately top down elitist structures are high risk with limited life spans unless extremely lucky with consistently top class management.  Bottom up structures diversify risk with variety of approaches that are credible for fans and owners alike.

Whatever agreement is reached, it will only paper over the cracks till the next round of negotiations. The R12 priority has to be to make their league financially viable to address the current imbalance.

The AP need to address the capital expenditure for stadia as no local govt. subsidy is available. The T14 need to address salary caps and FQ players at the clubs.  That has to be the focus over the next few years as the professional game continues to evolve.

I agree wholeheartedly.

TJ wrote:Yeah right.  No way on earth are the SA teams going to ruin the curie cup and the super 15 to play a meaningless club comp in Europe.  

 

The HC is meaningless to some if you're not in it.

The Amlin is a waste of space, but it does allow teams to field their 2nd/3rd teams to gain some game time like Bath did against Newport.

The number of professional teams in the top league cannot be the determining factor.

What stopping the French have a 30 team league where they play each other once - would that entitle them to 2 1/2 x more teams than the English?

There are a number of of issue here and I have more teams than you isn't one of them

Nice try, Scrumpy.

TJ wrote:Yeah right.  No way on earth are the SA teams going to ruin the curie cup and the super 15 to play a meaningless club comp in Europe.  

There has though been talk of them withdrawing from S15 in the past as they feel they subsidise NZ and Aus and get little in return. In fact didn't they change to the current conference structure and amend division of monies to placate SA?

Fair Cop Luckless  

"What stopping the French have a 30 team league where they play each other once"


What is stopping them is beyond obvious- they can not sustain 30 clubs!

Recwatcher wrote:Oh dear, folk are still going round in circles,  neither side can win the debate,  both have merits.

Ultimately top down elitist structures are high risk with limited life spans unless extremely lucky with consistently top class management.  Bottom up structures diversify risk with variety of approaches that are credible for fans and owners alike.

Whatever agreement is reached, it will only paper over the cracks till the next round of negotiations. The R12 priority has to be to make their league financially viable to address the current imbalance.

The AP need to address the capital expenditure for stadia as no local govt. subsidy is available. The T14 need to address salary caps and FQ players at the clubs.  That has to be the focus over the next few years as the professional game continues to evolve.

Recwatcher,
You make a great point.  And I agree, this agreement will do nothing towards addressing the bigger issues of a growing professional sport, except keeping it from going off the cliff.  

Its funny, in a way, how the debates have changed recently. At the start of all this the ERC sides appeared to deny any compromise would be considered.  And the English and French clubs also said some of their points were also fixed.  Now it seems the ERC sides understand some movement is necessary whilst the PRL and LNR clubs are talking too and the RFU is involved.  So all the carping was only carping, and now real discussions are taking place.  

Looking at the future, I think you hit the nail on the head.  In very specific ways the business model in each country is different than many others which stresses the progress of Rugby.  The business models need to be reconciled in a way that minimises the imbalances.  Of course, that doesn't mean that all business models need to be the same.

mystiroakey wrote:"What stopping the French have a 30 team league where they play each other once"


What is stopping them is beyond obvious- they can not sustain 30 clubs!

They have 30 teams in their top two leagues so not that far fetched.
Most if not all of the second tier are professional outfits

geoff998rugby wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"What stopping the French have a 30 team league where they play each other once"


What is stopping them is beyond obvious- they can not sustain 30 clubs!

They have 30 teams in their top two leagues so not that far fetched.
Most if not all of the second tier are professional outfits

There would be to many teams that aren't competitive, and playing home and away is the fairest solution to all leagues.. 

It would be a backwards step.. Look after your domestic system first and then good european performance will come,

Don't set up a domestic league only for the right to have more entrants and more weight in europe,

I think the French would be quite happy to increase the size of the Top domestic Tier and ignore Europe entirely. Certainly they claim that financially they would be better off. However FFR would demand serious concessions in terms NFQ limits and Salary Caps.


It feels as though:

T14 Clubs could actually thrive without Europe while AP clubs could survive. As Recwatcher points out the organisers of Pro12 need to find ways to make their own tournament financially viable. then they could not be so easily held to ransom by the French and English.

Agreed; but the obvious counter to that is that dont make the number of teams a criteria in the first place, which was the point made above by TrailApe.

It is a nonsense way to determine the number of entries into the European competition

The pro 12 is financially viable - indeed more so that the other leagues as the teams do not run deficits. It does not make huge profits - but crowds are growing, it is competitive top to bottom and the teams are solvent.

As Geoff sways - if thats the arguement then the scots could enter the 2nd tier clubs into the european cup instead of the british and irish cup. They would be cannon fodder but having another 6 teams entered would give them a bigger say. I am sure it has been thought of.

VietGwentRevisited wrote:I think the French would be quite happy to increase the size of the Top domestic Tier and ignore Europe entirely. Certainly they claim that financially they would be better off. However FFR would demand serious concessions in terms NFQ limits and Salary Caps.


It feels as though:

T14 Clubs could actually thrive without Europe while AP clubs could survive. As Recwatcher points out the organisers of Pro12 need to find ways to make their own tournament financially viable. then they could not be so easily held to ransom by the French and English.

Let's wait and see the results of all the talking before we declare who is/was holding who to ransom.

It seems a few weeks ago, the Franglo Championship go-it-alone ship was already leaving port with no poor Pro12 stowaways reported on board.  It was a two League inevitable conclusion to some very bad-blood chit chat over drinks and some horderves. Bon Voyage.

Seems like a few pirates captured it before it managed to leave the bay though....and the talks have resumed.  Just who is being held to ransom here?

if they are part of the process then yes they should get a bigger say!!

but teams should only get into these cups on merit. So yes create 30 clubs or 6 clubs, they should not however go straight into tier one or tier two comps!!

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed; but the obvious counter to that is that dont make the number of teams a criteria in the first place, which was the point made above by TrailApe.

It is a nonsense way to determine the number of entries into the European competition

Agreed - but equally when you have two tiers of competition, ignoring quality of teams is also absurd.

For me the 6 countries that are at the top table should each get 1 automatic entry - the number of countries could increase as cluib strength across europe grows. After that it should be dependent purely on performances in European competitions. this could then see any country losing teams if their performances do not merit it.

If we had a 20 team top tournament this season (dumb number though unless it is 4 groups of 5) then the 6 automatic entrants would be:

Leinster - Pro12 champions
Castres - T14 Champions
Leicester - AP champions
Glasgow - highest ranked Scottish team in 2012/13 Pro 12 Table
Scarlets - highest ranked Welsh team in 2012/13 Pro 12 Table
Treviso - highest ranked Italian team in 2012/13 Pro 12 Table


If we then allocated the remaining spots based on ERC rankings (flawed model admittedly) we would see the following join:

Toulon
Toulouse
Clermont
Biarritz - would be whipping boys
Munster
ulster
Stade Francais
Northampton
Harlequins
Blues
Saracens
Perpignan
Edinburgh
Wasps

TJ wrote:The pro 12 is financially viable - indeed more so that the other leagues as the teams do not run deficits.  It does not make huge profits - but crowds are growing, it is competitive top to bottom and  the teams are solvent.  

Do you believe what you type?

Most Rabo teams are scared stiff at the prospect of no HC rugby MONEY next year!

Well you are another one who is slating thee pro 12 based on no idea at all of what is going on in it. It is finacially viable. Teams do not run deficits funded by rich men with big egos
How much pro 12 rugby do you watch?

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The pro 12 is financially viable - indeed more so that the other leagues as the teams do not run deficits.  It does not make huge profits - but crowds are growing, it is competitive top to bottom and  the teams are solvent.  

Do you believe what you type?

Most Rabo teams are scared stiff at the prospect of no HC rugby MONEY next year!

For those Unions depending on Euro MONEY to grow the game, they would be worried about the prospect of no European competition. It isn't going to happen though.
It isn't as though the AP teams are sitting nice and financially snug either, is it? Debt is a concern due to some living beyond their means, and they really don't want an end to European competition either.

Scrumpy wrote:

TJ wrote:The pro 12 is financially viable - indeed more so that the other leagues as the teams do not run deficits.  It does not make huge profits - but crowds are growing, it is competitive top to bottom and  the teams are solvent.  

Do you believe what you type?

Most Rabo teams are scared stiff at the prospect of no HC rugby MONEY next year!

You'd make a delightful PRL negotiator, Scrumpy.

I go to 4/5 Rabo games a year and watch most of the TV games.
There is a hell of a lot of empty seats, standing space when I go to Rabo games compared to the Aviva games I attended, and it looks worse on TV.
 
How can it be financially viable when all we here from ex-players, pundits and rugby journalist is that without the HC some teams will fall on hard times, they can't keep their star players as it is, without that HC money some teams will disappear.
 
Like him or not Bruce is right.

Scrumpy you clearly do not now how the finances of the Irish Provinces are managed.

Ulster for example are in rude finacial health and could survive happily.
We would not replace Afoa, and may not anyway; possibly the same for Muller if he leaves but we would be fine.

Crowds are up, sales of merchandise has gone through the roof, TV will generate more income next year (sky deal in the offing). Add to that an extra international (and our share thereof), plus extra games agains the other Provinces, Pro12 cup, friendlies against other teams e.g Sharks perhaps or a touring side and there wont be a problem.

We have sponsorship of the ground being discussed as well which will bring in big money.

"Ulster for example are in rude finacial health and could survive happily"


survive in what?

Pro 12