Do you want a European Cup

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep - 10:33

First topic message reminder :

Financial stipulations and other arguments aside, do you want a European Rugby Cup?

Do you want to see your team battling the BEST teams in Europe or not?

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 10:46

if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 10:48

Did I mention Irish Provinces?

by VietGwentRevisited Tue 22 Oct - 10:49

TJ wrote:Well you are another one who is slating thee pro 12 based on no idea at all of what is going on in it. It is finacially viable. Teams do not run deficits funded by rich men with big egos

Really? Without the money from Europe - how viable is Pro12? Many teams would have to shed a lot of players to break even without European money. Many are shedding players right now - even with European money. Cannot comment on anything other than Welsh Regions (except didn't Edinburgh need to be bailed out by SRU?) but in Wales the regions have struggled financially even with the European money (and backers who may or may not be on an ego trip).

This is not an attempt to disparage Pro12 - but the economic reality is that the TV deal and other Commercial income is significantly lower than for the other two main European leagues.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 10:51

VietGwentRevisited wrote:
TJ wrote:Well you are another one who is slating thee pro 12 based on no idea at all of what is going on in it. It is finacially viable. Teams do not run deficits funded by rich men with big egos
Really? Without the money from Europe - how viable is Pro12? Many teams would have to shed a lot of players to break even without European money. Many are shedding players right now - even with European money. Cannot comment on anything other than Welsh Regions (except didn't Edinburgh need to be bailed out by SRU?) but in Wales the regions have struggled financially even with the European money (and backers who may or may not be on an ego trip).

This is not an attempt to disparage Pro12 - but the economic reality is that the TV deal and other Commercial income is significantly lower than for the other two main European leagues.

Thank you. thumbsup

This is not a witch hunt.

by TJ Tue 22 Oct - 10:51

Edinburgh did not have to be "bailed out" by the SRU. Edinburgh are run by the SRU and are given a budget to work with that they cannot exceed.

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 10:52

mystiroakey wrote:if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12

Wishful thinking? chin

Need being the mother of invention; something would be worked out.

by lostinwales Tue 22 Oct - 10:52

TJ wrote:Well you are another one who is slating thee pro 12 based on no idea at all of what is going on in it. It is finacially viable. Teams do not run deficits funded by rich men with big egos

At the risk of over quoting one person's comment - Pro 12 teams run instead with deficits funded by unions run by men with big egos..

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 10:53

Where did I put my rose tinted glasses?

Can I have them back please TJ.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 10:53

I am not quite sure how he can argue anything different , it's completely contradictory- he uses the argument that the teams need the european money to survive when the argument allows that viewpoint to aid his perspective!!

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 10:53

I could raise the govt. subsidy that Ulster are getting for ground development - but I won't..... Whistle

by VietGwentRevisited Tue 22 Oct - 10:54

TJ wrote:Edinburgh did not have to be "bailed out" by the SRU. Edinburgh are run by the SRU and are given a budget to work with that they cannot exceed.

And previously they were owned by some brothers?

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 10:55

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12
Wishful thinking?

Need being the mother of invention; something would be worked out.

comments like that are complete nonsense.And doesn't help anything. No there is no wishful thinking on my part!!

do you understand?

by geoff998rugby Tue 22 Oct - 10:57

Sorry I dont think the Pro12 will go bust.

Yes the Welsh teams will shed more players but they will still survive; provided their board support them in the same way the other Pro12 countries do.
It does mean Wales like Scotland and Italy will have to select their national team largely from players outside their Pro12 leagues and yes the quality of the league will suffer as a result but that is a different issue from viability.

Their will be abig hit in England as well without the money - most teams make a loss.
We will all lose without a European competition.
However English teams are as likely to go under without a European competition as Pro12 ones.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 10:58

you would survive but your players would start playing in other leagues and certain teams may fold yes, unless the rabbo as a group comes together and saves teams

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 10:59

mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12
Wishful thinking?

Need being the mother of invention; something would be worked out.

comments like that are complete nonsense.And doesn't help anything. No there is no wishful thinking on my part!!

do you understand?

Try not to be so touchy, myster. Smile Very Happy

Yes, I do understand fully. You are simply following the PRL line in hoping that threat of extinction can cower the Rabo into submission. Hasn't worked of course, but it hasn't stopped you and others from perpetuating the same old tactic.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 11:00

The Pro 12 won't go bust but it might become the Pro11 or 10 etc....

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:01

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12
Wishful thinking?

Need being the mother of invention; something would be worked out.

comments like that are complete nonsense.And doesn't help anything. No there is no wishful thinking on my part!!

do you understand?
Try not to be so touchy, myster. Smile

Yes, I do understand fully. You are simply following the PRL line in hoping that threat of extinction can cower the Rabo into submission. Hasn't worked of course, but it hasn't stopped you and others from perpetuating the same old tactic.

i think you are either stupid or on a wind up if thats what you think. Your discussions belong in a preschool, stop trying to group people into what you want them to be!!(the evil english that all think the same!!)

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 11:04

mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:if other teams went bust it wouldn't be a pro12
Wishful thinking?

Need being the mother of invention; something would be worked out.

comments like that are complete nonsense.And doesn't help anything. No there is no wishful thinking on my part!!

do you understand?
Try not to be so touchy, myster. Smile

Yes, I do understand fully. You are simply following the PRL line in hoping that threat of extinction can cower the Rabo into submission. Hasn't worked of course, but it hasn't stopped you and others from perpetuating the same old tactic.
i think you are either stupid or on a wind up if thats what you think. Your discussions belong in a preschool, stop trying to group people into what you want them to be!!(the evil english that all think the same!!)

Now, now, myster. Ad-hom is always a weak defence in absence of reasoned argument. Behave yourself Hug

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:06

Let me try and explain in laymans terms. something you might understand with an actual factual comment!!

The SRU says without european rugby they will be lucky to keep any professional teams..

I take from that they need european money to survive- unless it is them with the false threats!!

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 11:14

mystiroakey wrote:Let me try and explain in laymans terms. something you might understand with an actual factual comment!!

The SRU says without european rugby they will be lucky to keep any professional teams..

I take from that they need european money to survive- unless it is them with the false threats!!

Ahem....take a wee look at my previous comment just a few up from this.... Whistle

I did make mention that some Unions would indeed be worried about the possible extinction of a European competition, but you seemed to have missed it.

Take your time Very Happy

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:16

what does that have to do with your 'wishful thinking' comment or 'you are just like the prl and you want to threaten/scare the rabbo unions'.

i havent missed anything= i just take offence to your nonsense.. Now stop being so flipping one eyed and debate the points not about what you think i think!!

by TJ Tue 22 Oct - 11:18

Munchkin - these guys do not understand the pro 12, do not watch it, have no idea about the financing of it and rely on the PRL lies to make their point. Like beshocked on the other thread they will stick to this false line as it suits their agenda. Apparantly they know better than we do about the pro 12 despite not actually watching it.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:20

here we go- more of it

"these guys dont"

you couldn't make it up.

there is better rounded debate between iran and israel!

by TJ Tue 22 Oct - 11:24

mystiroakey

do you watch the pro 12?

whats really funny is the desperate attempts to justify the poor performance of the AP teams in the HC by making all sorts of nonsensical claims about the Pro12. It becomes ridiculous when its explained to them why they are wrong by people who know the teams and the league but apparently they can tell more about it by looking at the tables rather than watching the games

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 11:25

mystiroakey wrote:what does that have to do with your 'wishful thinking' comment or 'you are just like the prl and you want to threaten/scare the rabbo unions'.

i havent missed anything= i just take offence to your nonsense.. Now stop being so flipping one eyed and debate the points not about what you think i think!!

If you haven't missed anything then your previous comment to me makes little sense, and of course you are free to take offence at my opinions if you so wish, although the intention is not to offend, but to simply share what I believe to be true.

You haven't made any real points of debate. Just the usual opinions based on little else, but certain PRL comments which are weaker now than when first issued, due to a little progress in this sorry tale.

Big breath....and relax... Very Happy

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 11:30

TJ wrote:Munchkin - these guys do not understand the pro 12, do not watch it, have no idea about the financing of it and rely on the PRL lies to make their point. Like beshocked on the other thread they will stick to this false line as it suits their agenda. Apparantly they know better than we do about the pro 12 despite not actually watching it.

I've already said I watch it (thats what rugby fans do) stop being so patronising.

That’s a pretty big chip on your shoulder Son and one that will land you in a heap of trouble one day. thumbsup

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:31

I have allways said let the pro 12 do what they flipping want in regards to allocations etc but the ERC should only give the league a fixed or year by year variable amount- based on coefficients. however when unions within the rabbo are saying they can't survive without european money I will listen..

Just because someone may not watch as much rabbo as you do should never mean they are not right about it, or many are not even making any 'know it all' comments in regards to the rabbo.

I personally see it being run inefficiently because you have 4 unions wanting to prioritise their own teams over the actual product(league), but i dont assume to know what's best for you!!

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:32

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:what does that have to do with your 'wishful thinking' comment or 'you are just like the prl and you want to threaten/scare the rabbo unions'.

i havent missed anything= i just take offence to your nonsense.. Now stop being so flipping one eyed and debate the points not about what you think i think!!
If you haven't missed anything then your previous comment to me makes little sense, and of course you are free to take offence at my opinions if you so wish, although the intention is not to offend, but to simply share what I believe to be true.

You haven't made any real points of debate. Just the usual opinions based on little else, but certain PRL comments which are weaker now than when first issued, due to a little progress in this sorry tale.

Big breath....and relax...

you are insane i take it?

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 11:37

mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:what does that have to do with your 'wishful thinking' comment or 'you are just like the prl and you want to threaten/scare the rabbo unions'.

i havent missed anything= i just take offence to your nonsense.. Now stop being so flipping one eyed and debate the points not about what you think i think!!
If you haven't missed anything then your previous comment to me makes little sense, and of course you are free to take offence at my opinions if you so wish, although the intention is not to offend, but to simply share what I believe to be true.

You haven't made any real points of debate. Just the usual opinions based on little else, but certain PRL comments which are weaker now than when first issued, due to a little progress in this sorry tale.

Big breath....and relax...
you are insane i take it?

Of course I am Very Happy

When reasoned argument fails you, attack the person. It's a sure way to add bonus points to intellectual credibility, isn't it.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:38

so lets break this down- you believe i want to see the rabbo fall apart?

That is your point and the fact that I state that isn't what I want doesn't matter because you are right in your mind(relates to my insane comment against you as its a classic sign)! My comment was based on unions saying they would be in financial trouble without european money not because i want the rabbo to fall apart!(that is why i brought up the SRU statement- not to argue any other point but to validate mine!!)

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct - 11:45

mystiroakey

It's clear they have other agendas best to move on fella or go and find a brick wall!

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 11:50

certain posters love to twist meanings- as it makes them feel more like victims.

They also just want to create arguments that weren't there.,.

its funny - because yesterday I posted something and me and TJ partially agreed- the discussion died for 3 hours after that..

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 11:57

mystiroakey wrote:so lets break this down- you believe i want to see the rabbo fall apart?

That is your point and the fact that I state that isn't what I want doesn't matter because you are right in your mind(relates to my insane comment against you as its a classic sign)! My comment was based on unions saying they would be in financial trouble without european money not because i want the rabbo to fall apart!(that is why i brought up the SRU statement- not to argue any other point but to validate mine!!)

Ahem...everyone is 'right in their mind' until convinced otherwise. So, and according to you, all who disagree with you, and believe themselves to be 'right in their mind' are insane Very Happy

Your task in debate is to convince others of your opinion, and your opinion is just that. Are you also insane?

Now, as to your assertion; as advised before, take a wee look at all my replies, comprehend, and you will find that what I have been saying is that you, and others, attempt to employ this threat of European cup extinction as a means of control. For PRL it was as leverage to have demands met, and for others it was/is an attempt to gain the upper-hand in debate. As I've also said before, that argument is much weaker now due to progress in discussion between Rabo/PRL/LNR,FFR, and RFU. It is a strawman.

by Comfort Tue 22 Oct - 11:59

About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all Do you want a European Cup - Page 4 1347041234

Do you want a European Cup - Page 4 1347041234

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 12:02

"and believe themselves to be 'right in their mind' are insane Do you want a European Cup - Page 4 Icon_biggrin

"

YES - if there is no validation to believe in it !!

You may as belive in a sky wizard as well mate.. how about the bogeyman or the loch ness monster?

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Oct - 12:02

beshocked wrote:asoreshoulder which professional Irish teams have been overlooked for the HC?

Only 3 or 4 for Ireland? 100% representation this season.

Oh and btw England has 6 sides with win rates in the HC around 60%. That's far above both Ulster and Connacht.

Ulster have a 39% win rate vs English clubs. Despite people thinking Ulster are up on a high pedestal with Leinster and Munster they are not.

Surely Ireland,Wales,Scotland and Italy wouldn't be able to sustain 6 teams each.

The problem with Pro12 fans is they don't look in the mirror.

The club game in Wales is failing. Is that the fault of the English and French? No.

It's a poor business decision by the Scarlets and the Welsh rugby union not to hold onto North.

Edinburgh still persist in playing at Murrayfield. That's a poor business decision.

Blaming the English and French deflects attention.

Taking away auto qualification should hopefully stop Pro12 sides in general from being complacent plus heavily relying on the HC for revenue.

You also increase the value of the competition if qualification applies to more teams.

Beshocked, can you please show me of your evidence that the club game in Wales is failing ? You keep banging this drum all the time, yet you never produce any evidence, if you were actually not so ignorant to the situation in Wales you would notice that the club game in Wales is doing very fine, with a multitude of teams and a league structure both east and west with multiple divisions to match, so please do some homework before you come out with such stupid quotes like this.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 12:04

Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all

erm i would say 100% or 0% to be honest.

by GunsGerms Tue 22 Oct - 12:07

Ozzy3213 wrote:I don't think that's true As. Obviously we only have media reports to go on really, but from what I've read the Celtic nations do not want to budge form the current format. I'm not sure that can be construed as 'giving a little'.

I see no reason to budge. The balance of power is already skewed towards French and English rugby. Why allow a greater imbalance?

I think everyones fingers need to be placed firmly in the dike on this one.

The PRL are only looking at things at a micro level because thats the environment they exist in. Decisions like this need to be carefully considered at a macro rugby level because there are an abundance of considerations to weigh up and because the structure of Euro club rugby potentially has large scale implications across the rugby spectrum at all levels. The PRL is not set up to care about or consider anything outside its remit.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct - 12:09

Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all

I'd be interested to know the names of the 5% of posters who DO have a clue, Comfort.

I'm almost certain in advance that 95% of posters would disagree with your list.

by TJ Tue 22 Oct - 12:12

GunsGerms wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:I don't think that's true As. Obviously we only have media reports to go on really, but from what I've read the Celtic nations do not want to budge form the current format. I'm not sure that can be construed as 'giving a little'.
I see no reason to budge. The balance of power is already skewed towards French and English rugby. Why allow a greater imbalance?

I think everyones fingers need to be placed firmly in the dike on this one.

actually the Rabo unions have conceded changes will be made and have conceded on principle the number of places can be reduced and the distribution of money altered. Its the PRL who have refused until now to budge and inch having found out how isolated they are.

by Guest Tue 22 Oct - 12:13

mystiroakey wrote:"and believe themselves to be 'right in their mind' are insane "

YES - if there is no validation to believe in it !!

You may as belive in a sky wizard as well mate.. how about the bogeyman or the loch ness monster?

Razor sharp rebuttal...

It's been fun, myster, and that's all it is for me. I do care very much about the European competition, but I believe fully that it will continue, although change is inevitable.
You're a decent sort, even if we don't agree, me being insane, and all that, so will leave you to it for now, and get on with some work.

Laters Hug

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 22 Oct - 12:15

mystiroakey wrote:"and believe themselves to be 'right in their mind' are insane "

YES - if there is no validation to believe in it !!

You may as belive in a sky wizard as well mate.

Stuart Barnes?

by Comfort Tue 22 Oct - 12:20

SecretFly wrote:
Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all
I'd be interested to know the names of the 5% of posters who DO have a clue, Comfort.

I'm almost certain in advance that 95% of posters would disagree with your list.

I leave the 5% open in the hope that one day one of you will have a clue thumbsup

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 12:24

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:"and believe themselves to be 'right in their mind' are insane "

YES - if there is no validation to believe in it !!

You may as belive in a sky wizard as well mate.. how about the bogeyman or the loch ness monster?

Razor sharp rebuttal...

It's been fun, myster, and that's all it is for me. I do care very much about the European competition, but I believe fully that it will continue, although change is inevitable.
You're a decent sort, even if we don't agree, me being insane, and all that, so will leave you to it for now, and get on with some work.

Laters

xx

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct - 12:25

Comfort wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all
I'd be interested to know the names of the 5% of posters who DO have a clue, Comfort.

I'm almost certain in advance that 95% of posters would disagree with your list.
I leave the 5% open in the hope that one day one of you will have a clue

Just as I thought, I'm firmly in the no-clue category Wink

Now another question. How many of the bozzos, passing for executives, who are actually sitting around the polished table have a clue?

by Casartelli Tue 22 Oct - 12:26

Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all

It has been tremendous 'out of the loop' entertainment.

The great thing about it is that it will still be running long after things are settled.

The PRL folk will claim they were the 'catalysts of change', the saviors of NH club rugby, brought a business attitude to the rugby arena blah de blah etc.

Team Rabo will claim that they stood up to the big nasty bully boys and brought the Franglos around to their way of thinking.

Marvelous stuff!

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct - 12:28

Tbh it is very ironic, you see before all this happened i didn't care about the HC, now that i have got myself involved in these discussions in regards to its demise i have been watching every HC game i can!!

The flipping irony of it all. I actually care about it because of its potential demise

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct - 12:28

Casartelli wrote:
Comfort wrote:About 95% of posters on these boards have no clue when it comes to this situation, its hilarious to watch people argue these "facts" from either side, good on you all
It has been tremendous 'out of the loop' entertainment.

The great thing about it is that it will still be running long after things are settled.

The PRL folk will claim they were the 'catalysts of change', the saviors of NH club rugby, brought a business attitude to the rugby arena blah de blah etc.

Team Rabo will claim that they stood up to the big nasty bully boys and brought the Franglos around to their way of thinking.

Marvelous stuff!

Just in time for Panto season.

"Oh yes we did!!!!!!!!!"

"Oh no you didn't!!!!!"

by TJ Tue 22 Oct - 12:34

And the quality of the games this year? Been some crackers.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct - 12:40

mystiroakey wrote:Tbh it is very ironic, you see before all this happened i didn't care about the HC, now that i have got myself involved in these discussions in regards to its demise i have been watching every HC game i can!!

The flipping irony of it all. I actually care about it because of its potential demise

That's the bit that has always annoyed me though, mystir. People here who have openly (and at times proudly) professed to not really caring about HC. And I've heard many English guys I've spoken with here claim that in the beginning of this whole debate.
But then they casually assume they can argue as passionately and as honestly about the HC and it's 'potential demise' as people who have always felt it was by far the most important club/regional event in the Northern Hemisphere - outstripping the importance of all Leagues.

I'm glad you've warmed to the HC. Welcome to the club.... pity the interest arrives just as it 'potentially' dies

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Yes or no to a European rugby cup.