Do you want a European Cup

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:33

First topic message reminder :

Financial stipulations and other arguments aside, do you want a European Rugby Cup?

Do you want to see your team battling the BEST teams in Europe or not?

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:41

TJ wrote:And the quality of the games this year? Been some crackers.

I don't think many of the games have been better than what takes place in the Aviva most weeks, that's the benefit of having a competitive league week in week out. Yahoo

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:45

Scrumpy wrote:
TJ wrote:And the quality of the games this year? Been some crackers.
I don't think many of the games have been better than what takes place in the Aviva most weeks, that's the benefit of having a competitive league week in week out.

Yeah... Scrumpy... keep up the cheerleading. Wink

by TJ Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:45

Pffttppptp. Really? Even the AP teams ( some of them)have had to raise their game to be competative.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:47

Thats my view, the HC gets over-hyped imo.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:50

Scrumpy wrote:Thats my view, the HC gets over-hyped imo.

Too true the Amlin is where the real action is. Whistle

The HEC is the top non-international comp in the northern hemisphere, and that is not really arguable.

by TJ Tue 22 Oct 2013, 12:56

He doesn't like the HC because english clubs struggle in it. Whistle

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:06

TJ wrote:He doesn't like the HC because english clubs struggle in it.

success breeds success, its a fact of sports life.

winning teams sell season tickets, get sponsors, and have passionate traveling fans.

no surprises that the best supported clubs and provinces are those that have been around for the longest and fill their grounds. it is in this respect that the scottish and welsh clubs seem to be lacking relative to fr/eng/irl ones. i bet the irish clubs would be similarly close to profitability as eng/fr financially strong sides. welsh/scots clubs would be losing huge sums without the support of their unions. and i think success on the pitch and financial sustainability off it go hand in hand. which is why it appears to many outsiders that sru and wrr club sides are hooked on HC money and are consequently in such a tight spot.

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:10

The regions struggle for attendances because there is just TOO much rugby to go around in Wales.

by Casartelli Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:20

LordDowlais wrote:The regions struggle for attendances because there is just TOO much rugby to go around in Wales.

An interesting theory. See, stuff like this is the core of 606v2 - not the 'our league is better than your league' dross. (The French can always win that particular 'debate', by the way).

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:22

the fact welsh rugby fans choose to watch amateur or semi pro rugby than the 4 regions speaks volumes for how weak the genuine support for the regions is.

below is the 9 welsh clubs sides (from which the 3 HC places were selected) before reorganisation in 2003

if you look at their ground capacities, it doesnt look like collapsing 9 log-standing well supported clubs into 4 regions has at all translated in higher attendance. this weekend in HC cardifff has 11.5k and scarlets 8.4k

Before regionalisation, Wales was represented by Welsh Premiership clubs.
Team Years Stadia and capacity City/Area
Wales Bridgend 2001–03 Brewery Field (6,000) Bridgend, Wales
Wales Caerphilly 2001–03 Virginia Park (5,000) Caerphilly, Wales
Wales Cardiff 2001–03 Cardiff Arms Park (12,500) Cardiff, Wales
Wales Ebbw Vale 2001–03 Eugene Cross Park (8,000) Ebbw Vale, Wales
Wales Llanelli 2001–03 Stradey Park (10,800) Llanelli, Wales
Wales Neath 2001–03 The Gnoll (6,000) Neath, Wales
Wales Newport 2001–03 Rodney Parade (11,676) Newport, Wales
Wales Pontypridd 2001–03 Sardis Road (7,861) Pontypridd, Wales
Wales Swansea 2001–03 St Helen's (4,500) Swansea, Wales

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:24

Casartelli wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions struggle for attendances because there is just TOO much rugby to go around in Wales.
An interesting theory. See, stuff like this is the core of 606v2 - not the 'our league is better than your league' dross. (The French can always win that particular 'debate', by the way).

and by the way i agree with your initial point LD, and think this is one of the ways to explain a strong national team vs weak/underperforming pro club sides. the amateur game in wales is deep and strong. 4 pro clubs much less so.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:25

TJ wrote:He doesn't like the HC because english clubs struggle in it.

When did I say I didn't like the HC?
You need to read the posts more carefully and stop these knee jerk reactions, how old are you five? Laugh

What I said was - "I don't think many of the games have been better than what takes place in the Aviva most weeks"

Sky are very good at selling the HC to some fans who have been starved of high stakes rugby outside of the 6Nations window. That said I still enjoy watching the HC and Amlin I just don't think it's any better than the Aviva.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:29

I laugh at the seasonality of rugby.

One month you're an eternal loser (possibly HC performances)
Next month, you're the European top dog (possibly International performances)
Following month you're the laughing stock of NH rugby (possibly coming last in the 6N)
Another month still and you are the bestest again (possibly and probably the biggest, mostest money League in Europe.)

There's something for everyone in a European rugby year. Now that's 'Fair' Wink

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:29

Casartelli wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions struggle for attendances because there is just TOO much rugby to go around in Wales.
An interesting theory. See, stuff like this is the core of 606v2 - not the 'our league is better than your league' dross. (The French can always win that particular 'debate', by the way).

Cas, there is thread on here congratulating Pontypridd, the game in which they were referring to Ponty must have had about two or three thousand spectators there, what the Blues could do with that mount of support, also I know Ebbw Vale have a massive following as do Cross Keys, Pontypool, Blaina, Tredegar the Dragons would do well with all that support, where I live in Merthyr there are off the top of my head six established rugby clubs/teams, we have Merthyr(obviously), Dowlais, Cefn Coed, Troedryhriw, Bedlinog, Nelson, I am not sure if Treharris and Abervan have any teams anymore, but that is all for just a population of fifty five thousand people, I am sure there might be more as well, the thing is for our population, where every village and town has a rugby club, there are simply not enough people.

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:37

quinsforever wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions struggle for attendances because there is just TOO much rugby to go around in Wales.
An interesting theory. See, stuff like this is the core of 606v2 - not the 'our league is better than your league' dross. (The French can always win that particular 'debate', by the way).
and by the way i agree with your initial point LD, and think this is one of the ways to explain a strong national team vs weak/underperforming pro club sides. the amateur game in wales is deep and strong. 4 pro clubs much less so.

Nail on the head there quins, even though you do not see a very good turn out for our regions, when every fan in Wales gets together for Wales you see that the support is there, and always will be. Just because the regions are not getting the support they need, it does not mean that RUGBY in Wales is not supported. A lot of people will go and watch their son's, farther, uncle, step dad, best friend play for their local side, and a lot of the fans are actually involved with these village side, playing/coaching/driving the bus/washing the kits ect and this is what annoys me when people like Beshocked make sweeping statements like club rugby is dying in Wales, when it isn't, the simple fact is that there is too much rugby and not enough people.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:37

Scrumpy wrote:
TJ wrote:He doesn't like the HC because english clubs struggle in it.
When did I say I didn't like the HC?
You need to read the posts more carefully and stop these knee jerk reactions, how old are you five?

What I said was - "I don't think many of the games have been better than what takes place in the Aviva most weeks"

Sky are very good at selling the HC to some fans who have been starved of high stakes rugby outside of the 6Nations window. That said I still enjoy watching the HC and Amlin I just don't think it's any better than the Aviva.

Results question you on that point.

Competitiveness the AP might have in buckets - just as a school-boy competition might also have tons of competitiveness; - evenly matched sides going for it - sweat, blood, excitement, vitriol, the whole deal.

That makes it entertaining, but not 'better'. As when AP sides meet Europe, they realise that they have to defend much more heavily and wisely and their scope for attack is much more limited too. That is to say, they learn quickly how tough real man's rugby is. And just to make you feel better - all HC particpants do. They all realise it's a step up.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:44

It may be a step up physically for the players (does that make it better?) but as a fan on the sidelines the HC is no better than the Aviva in my eyes.

Hard as that is for some of you to understand.

by LordDowlais Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:48

Scrumpy wrote:It may be a step up physically for the players (does that make it better?) but as a fan on the sidelines the HC is no better than the Aviva in my eyes.

Hard as that is for some of you to understand.

It's not hard for me to understand, each to their own, that's what I say. It also means that if I think th HC is better it does not mean I am wrong either.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:53

Great, remember I did say - "I just don't think it's any better than the Aviva." thumbsup

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 13:58

Scrumpy wrote:It may be a step up physically for the players (does that make it better?) but as a fan on the sidelines the HC is no better than the Aviva in my eyes.

Hard as that is for some of you to understand.

It's not hard to understand at all...you're a home boy and you love your home product. Why should I find it hard to understand that?

But it's much more than a step-up in physicality of course. It's a step-up all over, a step-up in wisdom and skill to overcome the step-up in physicality.

Who was it that said it was probably the biggest event in his rugby playing life, winning the HC? He was an past WC winner and an ex-Premiership League player............. quite a famous lad who knows his stuff. Wink

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:02

Laurence Dallaglio Smile

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:04

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:07

Vickery

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:07

Mr Exercise Bike man? Well him too then. That's two English men who think HC is preferable to the 'home' event.

That's what?...em....about 55 million of you to go? Tough ask if you're all just going to answer individually and delay your answers as long as possible (or until the HC is killed off) Wink

Then it'll be reams of print in English papers about the fall of the old King and how great a chap he was after all *sniffle*.....

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:09

Lewsey, Worsley...am sure there are more too.

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:09

Dawson

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:10

There has been a few Englishman to win both the HC and RWC!

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:10

It's growing, it's growing!!!!! ...I knew I'd start a revolution in the mind of the English....

keep 'em coming, keep 'em coming. It'll turn into a landslide if we're not careful......

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:11

did they really say winning HC was a bigger deal than winning RWC? still not sure who it was. could even have been JW.

but i bet most would say RWC was the everest for them. could see how HC would be Mt Blanc compared to AP's Ben Nevis though.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:12

Scrumpy wrote:There has been a few Englishman to win both the HC and RWC!

I assumed that, Scrumpy, as it takes at least 15 to make a team...... But keep up the cheerleader stuff. You're a darling with those pompoms.

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:12

Scrumpy wrote:Dawson

Thompson too

by Scrumpy Tue 22 Oct 2013, 14:17

At the end of the day I wouldn't really miss the HC as long as the Aviva is still about, thats all I'm saying Very Happy

by nth Tue 22 Oct 2013, 22:11

“It is right up there,” Wilkinson said.

“In fact, it goes beyond [winning the World Cup] because life is in the now, not in the past. The next thing you reach for, the next goal you set, life just gets better and better if you are in a club as good as this.”

“All of a sudden you can appreciate the World Cup in a way I’ve never done,” said Wilkinson, flawless again with his place-kicking - adding to his incredible run of not having missed in the knockout stages of this season’s Heineken Cup.

On Saturday he landed three penalties and the angled conversion that sealed this match; overall he had 17 pots at goal, 17 through the posts.

“You can appreciate that it’s done and it’s something that will last forever. I had never felt that way before because I had been so worried by the fact that I never wanted it to be the last thing, to feel that I had topped out at 24. I didn’t want to play the rest of my career under the shadow of that.

“At the time I almost hated it. Now I can reflect that I have been involved in a club final, won one and can appreciate it. 2003 was great but it was almost battling me every time I stepped on to the field, trying to show me up. This victory is like the World Cup but in a way more special as it is with the guys I am with day in, day out.”

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 22:33

good quote. he's not exactly saying HC is more important than RWC is he though. its a much more subtle comment, more honest and more to do with his evolution as a player and a person and how past successes can become present burdens if they remain distant and insurmountable.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct 2013, 22:40

he hasn't said the HC is more important at all.

he said that his present is the most important to him at this present time.

When he looks back on it there will be no doubt what was the greater achievement!

by nth Tue 22 Oct 2013, 23:06

The first quote should be given the context of being his immediate post match comment (the second was later but in time for the next morning's papers). There might be tinges of what a man would say when postcoitally asked by a woman whether he loved her.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 23:15

God guys [quins, mistyr], yis certainly keep alive the word 'semantics'... it don't matter what anyone actually says; it seems they always might/could/probably do mean something entirely different.

The World Cup was 'special' - it was, he isn't denying it. The HC win with his team pals, "in a way more special"

The operative word is "More".

To tell you the truth though, I'm being mischevous. I know what you both mean - but damn it, it's funny how eager you are to turn a sun into a moon and black into white. Wink

By the way, I wouldn't mind at all if he meant that really the WC was indeed more special (even though it's not what he said!) But I wouldn't mind that at all. I'd quite like it. It'd prove that yep, International is much more important to 'club' players than 'club' owners would like to think.

I win both ways Yahoo

by quinsforever Tue 22 Oct 2013, 23:19

SecretFly wrote:God guys [quins, mistyr], yis certainly keep alive the word 'semantics'... it don't matter what anyone actually says; it seems they always might/could/probably do mean something entirely different.

The World Cup was 'special' - it was, he isn't denying it. The HC win with his team pals, "in a way more special"

The operative word is "More".

To tell you the truth though, I'm being mischevous. I know what you both mean - but damn it, it's funny how eager you are to turn a sun into a moon and black into white.

By the way, I wouldn't mind at all if he meant that really the WC was indeed more special (even though it's not what he said!) But I wouldn't mind that at all. I'd quite like it. It'd prove that yep, International is much more important to 'club' players than 'club' owners would like to think.

I win both ways

i enjoyed looking back to find a few peeps who had won both RWC and HC medals. you enjoyed winding me up.

thats what they call a win-win situation.

by mystiroakey Tue 22 Oct 2013, 23:34

fly do you think a HC win is more important than a WC win?

is that what you are actually suggesting?

by SecretFly Tue 22 Oct 2013, 23:59

mystiroakey wrote:fly do you think a HC win is more important than a WC win?

is that what you are actually suggesting?

Oh mystir, I do wish you'd detect a play acting eejit when you see one a bit more often. I'm messing around both with the topic and with words...which I love to do. Don't always try to find a biting argument in casual chit chat.

It's no secret what I think if you cared to look through my very long longwinded history on this site. International is my first love, it's the variety of rugby I first bought into as a child in the 70s, it continues to be my first love. Club/Provincial rugby entertains me and I use it to keep an eye on prospective young International hopefuls and enjoy watching it as a spectacle for the love of rugby itself.

Here's my preferences in ascending order as an Irish person.

Pro12
Heineken Cup
International (A teams/juniors etc)
International (not including Ireland - other nations competing against each other)
Senior International (Ireland)

Nothing is more important to me than an International Irish shirt.

by mystiroakey Wed 23 Oct 2013, 01:18

good lad

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