Should the Klits have made more of an effort to entertain ?????

Regardless of whether they have been succesful stylistically..are smart and are Gentlemen!!! The Klits era has seen the demise of Heavyweight boxing and they have to shoulder some of the blame.......

They've been prepared to stink out arena after arena in safety first battles......Jabbing and clinching and have made little effort to make it over the pond .......and it's fair to say My American brothers have washed their hands with them.........

The Klits are happy raking it in defending the greatest prize in sports in Germany and that's fair enough.....

But Boxing thrives when the heavyweight division does..It's the blue riband division and it's success a la Tyson often filters down......

No one begrudges Wlad's safety first display against Haye!! He was dangerous..........However him and his brother have been so much better than most of their opponents it wouldn't have hurt to have made an effort to entertain... but no they coast.......

I've heard the argument that Americans aren't interested because they are Europeans and the TV companies folowed suit........But Lewis was a staple on PPV..........

The Klits haven't made a big enough effort to transcend and they haven't made a big enough effort to entertain..

and It's hurt Boxing..........

Watched the HW 'GLoves are Off' last night and Lennox was talking about this.

Said the K's were good at what they did and efficient but talked about how they're style didn't suit the US/UK audience and he'd been involved in a number of networks looking at them (he named HBO) who said the K's simply weren't exciting enough to sell.

But he remarked that the Germans seem to be fine with that and they're making good money still so fair play to them.

Personally I don't see it making much difference to their legacy as there were little or no 'big' fights out there that suffered for not being on big Vegas HBO PPV events.

I would argue that Mayweather isnt very exciting to watch at times.

Should he make more of an effort to entertain in the ring?

I am kind of on the fence about it Truss about this. Will stick with Wlad as he is the main offender and Vitali is sometimes not too bad to watch. The first thing to say is having attended one of his fights in Germany his fan base over there do not care in any way shape or form. They attend in numbers and all go home extremely happy, and I assure you the fight I was there for was as turgid an affair as any of his fights.

Secondly the one thing you cannot forget with Wlad is his chin is poor, even as a fan of his this is pretty undeniable. Given this any kind of change in approach or more cavalier attitude is going to be one fraught with risks as cliché though it is one punch can turn a fight round at heavyweight, so whilst he may well have been able to turn in some more exciting performances over the last few years would he have gone eight years unbeaten? My instinct is perhaps not.

Personally I always prefer to look at his opponents for where the blame lies. Wlad is winning, racking up defences and purses and is looking increasingly likely to leave the sport with his prodigious intellect intact so the old saying of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it does have some validity from his perspective. As I say I look more to his opponents. Every one of them enters the ring pretty much knowing what Wlad will do, he will throw the jab and straight right and then tie them up when they get inside, yet in roughly eight years not one of them has found a way to make him go to plan B or allow us as fans to see if he has anything else in his locker as this is not working. A shameful reflection on the lack of depth in the current talent pool.

See im confused with Lennox garbage mouth.

their not exciting enough, yet they knock pretty much everyone out bar a few. Hows that not exciting yet Mayweather, who hardly knocks anyone out, is?

Sorry, but the fans want KO's, and that's something the klitshckos deliver most of the time bar a few.

Its not exactly their fault the heavyweight division is Love sacks.

Adam D wrote:I would argue that Mayweather isnt very exciting to watch at times.

Should he make more of an effort to entertain in the ring?

Shameless baiting, Adam.

Adam D wrote:I would argue that Mayweather isnt very exciting to watch at times.

Should he make more of an effort to entertain in the ring?

Mayweather is once in a generation talent with a marmite personality.........People pay out of admiration or to see him lose...

America isnt interested in the division because they have no dogs in the fight. Lewis chugged along because he had the remnants of the last of the great American heavyweights to keep the American interest in the division. Its no real secret that interest in the division explodes in Europe while they dominate it and fades off in the US while the likes of Chambers and Arreola are their best and no hope.

catchweight wrote:America isnt interested in the division because they have no dogs in the fight. Lewis chugged along because he had the remnants of the last of the great American heavyweights to keep the American interest in the division. Its no real secret that interest in the division explodes in Europe while they dominate it and fades off in the US while the likes of Chambers and Arreola are their best and no hope.

Interest in Europe now isn't anything to what it was when Holy, Tyson and Holmes, Bowe, Foreman had the belts..

I thought Arreola didn't look half bad in his last outing, reckon he's the best of the US bunch and should be on level with any of the Euro guys including Pulev who's meant to be right up there and I thought was pretty unimpressive beating TT.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Adam D wrote:I would argue that Mayweather isnt very exciting to watch at times.

Should he make more of an effort to entertain in the ring?

Shameless baiting, Adam.

Mayweather himself has admitted that he has made an effort to give the audience more entertaining fights. There's an argument to be made that he didn't have to stand and tee off on Mosley nor did he had to be so cavalier against Cotto (it was clear that Mayweather was able to slide out of trouble whenever he wanted but chose to trade for longer than we've come to expect) So in that respect, the OP's question is valid.

Yes perhaps given that they hold the most prized possession sport there is part of them (albeit miniscule) that owes it to the paying public to provide entertainment and excitement. The difficulty is that different people are impressed by different aspects and facets of the sport. However, as Rowley says, why should they risk serious injury or, more importantly to some, a loss of earnings to provide entertainment for someone who is likely to forget all about it a few days afterwards?

Only real issue I have with the thread is where the OP states he doesn't blame Wlad for his safety first approach to Haye as he was a dangerous opponent when all we've heard him banging on about for months now is how Haye ran like a thief. Make your mind up will ya!

Entertainment is, in any case, in the eye of the beholder. I speak as someone who enjoyed Whitaker's masterclasses, takes great pleasure in Mayweather's skills and thoroughly respects Klitschko's determination and ability to find a way to overcome his own weaknesses.

Why should Wlad render himself more likely to lose simply because a certain proportion of the boxing public don't find his style to their taste? As Jeff says, the argument that his purses will suffer holds no water, his opponents are no closer to solving the riddle that he sets than they were five years ago and all his faculties are intact. Where's the problem?

At the highest level, winning is what it's all about. It is the alienable right of every fighter to go about his business in the style that he chooses in order to achieve that. Wlad deserves as much credit as any fighter ever has for devising a method that enables him to win with ease in spite of possessing deficiencies that would have sunk the careers of lesser men.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

catchweight wrote:America isnt interested in the division because they have no dogs in the fight. Lewis chugged along because he had the remnants of the last of the great American heavyweights to keep the American interest in the division. Its no real secret that interest in the division explodes in Europe while they dominate it and fades off in the US while the likes of Chambers and Arreola are their best and no hope.

Interest in Europe now isn't anything to what it was when Holy, Tyson and Holmes, Bowe, Foreman  had the belts..

It is. The Klitschkos are bigger in Europe than any of the Americans. Europe is now the home of heavyweight boxing. Until America can produce some capable heavyweights. Even Haye against Fury is bigger than any heavyweight fight America can muster.

My view is Boxing is a form of entertainment..........I imagine Whittaker and Nunn wouldn't get away with their antics back in the 40s........

But that is my opinion and I'm open to ones that disagree.......

All welcome....

If Wlad was picking up £500k for title defences then I think the argument is stronger, but as he's making £4-5m a fight I think it becomes slightly redundant.

So interest in Europe now is greater than it was when Tyson, Foreman and Holy were champions.....

I am getting you right aren't I ??

Wlad was in entertaining fights, but probably prefers staying on his feet.

The Klitschkos realise that they have nothing to gain by fighting in America. They fought a few of Americas 2nd rate heavyweights there in the past and while there is no great rival there and America has few decent heavyweights then the audience isnt going to be there. If Lewis had the same rivals as the Klitschkos had he wouldnt have generated interest in America either.

catchweight wrote:The Klitschkos realise that they have nothing to gain by fighting in America. They fought a few of Americas 2nd rate heavyweights there in the past and while there is no great rival there and America has few decent heavyweights then the audience isnt going to be there. If Lewis had the same rivals as the Klitschkos had he wouldnt have generated interest in America either.

That's not answered my question..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So interest in Europe now is greater than it was when Tyson, Foreman and Holy were champions.....

I am getting you right aren't I ??

I think he was meaning that the interest in heavyweight boxing NOW is greater in Europe than the US.

Sammy Angott, "the Octopus", was a renowned spoiler in the 30s and 40s and a respected champion. He was far from the only example of his style in that era. It has always taken all sorts to make the boxing world and long may it continue. In any event, it's not as though we're talking about fighters with the potential to create dismal affairs like Nelson-DeLeon or Nelson-Warring. If every fight were like those dirges, I might concede the original point, but they were, and are, the exception, thankfully.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So interest in Europe now is greater than it was when Tyson, Foreman and Holy were champions.....

I am getting you right aren't I ??

Yes it is. They have the best heavyweights now dominating the division. Tyson was once off but Holyfield and Foreman would not sell out crowds in Europe on a regular basis fighting the kind of mismatches the Klitschkos do. Do you see Foreman and Holyfield drawing sell out crowds in Europe against the likes of Bert Cooper or Shannon Briggs?

Adam D wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So interest in Europe now is greater than it was when Tyson, Foreman and Holy were champions.....

I am getting you right aren't I ??

I think he was meaning that the interest in heavyweight boxing NOW is greater in Europe than the US.

Let the boy speak for himself Adam. I'm looking forward to an argument breaking out, the thread being locked and whether or not this ban you've promised for the perpetrators gets handed out

I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

catchweight wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So interest in Europe now is greater than it was when Tyson, Foreman and Holy were champions.....

I am getting you right aren't I ??

Yes it is. They have the best heavyweights now dominating the division. Tyson was once off but Holyfield and Foreman would not sell out crowds in Europe on a regular basis fighting the kind of mismatches the Klitschkos do. Do you see Foreman and Holyfield drawing sell out crowds in Europe against the likes of Bert Cooper or Shannon Briggs?

That is garbage..........Everyone knew those guys names.......They transcended the sport........

..........Every layman knew Iron Mike..........and Big george

Foreman fought in Europe...to an attendance of 4k.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

....and given that some of the fights have been dull, drawn out, or even lop-sided affairs, the crowd still haven't cared one iota and until they start demanding more bang for their buck, we will continue to see the K's going through the motions whilst being praised to the high Heavens.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

Look...........That's three countries........

Tyson sold out in Britain..............Would Klit vs chump......I doubt it........Britain has a much bigger base and heritage than those Countries and better taste.

But in the events of the thread being taken down the wrong road I'll concede the point.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

Look...........That's three countries........

Tyson sold out in Britain..............Would Klit vs chump......I doubt it........Britain has a much bigger base and heritage than those Countries and better taste.

But in the events of the thread being taken down the wrong road I'll concede the point.

Haye and Fury are both arguably 'chumps' in comparison to previous HW eras, bet Wlad could sell out in the UK versus one of them.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

catchweight wrote:The Klitschkos realise that they have nothing to gain by fighting in America. They fought a few of Americas 2nd rate heavyweights there in the past and while there is no great rival there and America has few decent heavyweights then the audience isnt going to be there. If Lewis had the same rivals as the Klitschkos had he wouldnt have generated interest in America either.

That's not answered my question..

It was a roundabout way of saying "no" the Klitschkos neednt have bothered making any more effort to be entertaining because they were facing an audience who were never going to be as appreciative as their domestic one. On the occasions they did put in a performance that could be considered reasonably exciting, the American audience was only passably interested. Vitali had good "American" style performances against Lewis, Sanders, Johnson and Williams in the the States. Not boring fights but once Lewis left the picture any lingering US interest that remained left.

Unprovable assertions, Truss. Britain's heavyweight heritage isn't that much greater than Germany's in any event, and I'm not all that sure that this country always has better taste, either. Ken Buchanan regularly fought in front of a few hundred bow-tied champagne-swillers at various National Sporting Clubs, while Billy Walker, the ho-hum "Blonde Bomber" was selling out arenas all over the place. Nothing to do with styles; ignorance is bliss over here as much as it is anywhere else.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

Look...........That's three countries........

Tyson sold out in Britain..............Would Klit vs chump......I doubt it........Britain has a much bigger base and heritage than those Countries and better taste.

But in the events of the thread being taken down the wrong road I'll concede the point.

Haye and Fury are both arguably 'chumps' in comparison to previous HW eras, bet Wlad could sell out in the UK versus one of them.

They had higher standing than the American boy who lost in 60 seconds....and that sold out..

I have conceded the point.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that Ali-Mildenberger drew anything like the kind of crowd that the Klitschkos can routinely whistle up for even the most humdrum defence. In places like Germany and Russia/Ukraine, I think that interest in the heavyweight division is at an all-time high.

Look...........That's three countries........

Tyson sold out in Britain..............Would Klit vs chump......I doubt it........Britain has a much bigger base and heritage than those Countries and better taste.

But in the events of the thread being taken down the wrong road I'll concede the point.

Haye and Fury are both arguably 'chumps' in comparison to previous HW eras, bet Wlad could sell out in the UK versus one of them.

But would he sell out fighting Pulev or Stiverne? Surely the acid test would a fight selling out a football stadium in a neutral country. Can't see Wlad selling out the Nou Camp stadium for a humdrum defence can you? However, he could do it every week at Shalke's ground...where his fanbase is.

I did Ali-Mildenberger an injustice, by the way - that fight had a crowd of 45,000, which is damned good. It's a figure that is regularly equalled or exceeded by the Klitschkos, who aren't even German, nevertheless.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Unprovable assertions, Truss. Britain's heavyweight heritage isn't that much greater than Germany's in any event, and I'm not all that sure that this country always has better taste, either. Ken Buchanan regularly fought in front of a few hundred bow-tied champagne-swillers at various National Sporting Clubs, while Billy Walker, the ho-hum "Blonde Bomber" was selling out arenas all over the place. Nothing to do with styles; ignorance is bliss over here as much as it is anywhere else.

Tyson would have sold anywhere as Japan showed...........

But look I'll concede no big deal...........

I think we can apply the question of whether X would have sold out a neutral arena against another neutral fighter to most heavyweight champs. Even someone like Larry Holmes might have struggled to get much of an audience in Paris for fighting Lorenzo Zanon, for example. Ali and Tyson are just about the only post-war heavyweights who could draw a huge neutral crowd to watch the destruction of a nonentity. Klitschko is not much different from Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Walcott, Johansson or Tim Witherspoon in that regard.

Would Manny Pacquio have sold out if he fought a neutral in this country?

If Pac vs Marquez III had been held here, would it sell out?

I would even suggest (and its not baiting) but if Floyd fought Alvarez at Old Trafford, it would struggle to sell out.

Good thread by the way.

Floyd-Khan wouldn't sell out Old Trafford, so I wouldn't consider that baiting.

Maybe it's a reflection of the success of Germany and the Ukraine in the sport they have been so accepting of stinkers.........

Probably to the detriment of the sport..

Should say that the greatest fight that I've ever seen in the flesh was a ten-rounder between Edwin Rosario and Frankie Randall at...the York Hall in Bethnal Green. Absolute classic which sent the locals wild. Not sure that they could have filled a football stadium, but York Hall is almost certainly the most knowledgeable fight venue in the country and boxing cognoscenti will always provide an audience for two fighters of merit.

Good one........Frankie Randall was a much better fighter than he's given credit for..

Contentious wasn't it..........

Close, rather than contentious, Truss. Frankie lost, just, but he told me a few years later that he had never been hit as hard by anyone, including Chavez or Primo Ramos (who KO'd Randall in 2). He had no problem with the decision - thought it might just have been a draw, he said - and nor did the crowd, who were showering the ring with applause.

You've met him.........seems a humble guy..good stuff.

Pazienza once said of Edwin.........If you take his shot he becomes ordinary....

.......Devastating when you couldn't though

The biggest factor is simply nationality. The Klitschkos were never destined to capture the American audience because they werent American and they had no significant American rivals. Or even a significant rival at all unless you count Haye.

Got to know him quite well when I was living in Australia for a couple of years. He was over there for a few weeks to help a guy called Pedro Sanchez prepare for a title eliminator against Kostya Tszyu. Frankie was just about to go into training for his first fight with Coggi, I seem to recall, and he sparred a few rounds with Sanchez (didn't help poor Pedro much).

Good guy, Frankie, and very interesting on a lot of fighters. As I say, felt that Rosario was much the hardest hitter he faced, spoke highly of Freddie Pendleton, whom he regarded as seriously underrated, but had nothing but contempt for Chavez, whom he reckoned he would have beaten on any day they fought, given a level playing field. He was also highly superstitious - he fought Ramos wearing red trunks, which weren't his normal or preferred ring-wear, got sparked early and made sure that he never wore red again!

Juan coggi..The italian southpaw........remember him but not with any pleasure.....remember the Harold Brazier fight.

Randall got the shaft in Julio 2.......

Golota was a biggish name in America.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Juan coggi..The italian southpaw........remember him but not with any pleasure.....remember the Harold Brazier fight.

Randall got the shaft in Julio 2.......

Golota was a biggish name in America.

Only for his unpredictability, nothing to do with his pure ability as a boxer

DAVE667 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Juan coggi..The italian southpaw........remember him but not with any pleasure.....remember the Harold Brazier fight.

Randall got the shaft in Julio 2.......

Golota was a biggish name in America.

Only for his unpredictability, nothing to do with his pure ability as a boxer

That's not the point is it..

Golota had Bowe, Tyson and Lewis to enhance his profile with American audiences.

Argentinian, was Coggi, Truss. Decent fighter, though. 3-time belt holder at 140, went 13-3 in title fights, lost the trilogy (1-2) with Frankie, but beat guys as good as Oliva, Brazier, Ramirez etc. Possibly a bit underrated.