Quins

Great rugby last night from Quins, best rugby we have seen in the Prem this season.... Watch out Sarries!

Hmmm... Sarries are a very different prospect from Worcester, unfortunately, and their double-tackling is very good at stopping the offloading game. Especially if they are allowed to flop over the ball at the ruck.

Better from Quins, but it's still going to be an uphill struggle next week

I think they are doing well and i don't think any expected them to beat Sarries.

But they will still be play-off material

LOL summed it up well on BT sport review on Sunday - Quins are a fair weather team. They will occasionally grind out a win but they excel on the harder grounds.

That offloading game worked well against Worcester, but as Poorfour says - Sarries are a different animal, and they will be riding high after demolishing Bath. There is no doubting that this is a massive game for Quins, a win isn't impossible but more importantly we need to maintain the momentum from last Friday - creating opportunities. Hopefully Guest will be fit as he is starting to show some good form again. Easter looks good in the engine room too. Maurie could work on his passing continuity a bit - too often the ball seemed to die when it got to him, however his workrate was very impressive too.

Bit harsh to say fair weather team, we did have a good grunt game as well which has done for Tigers and Saints in the past. Just struggling to implement it without a few key players.

Sarries are our bogey team. Their linespeed and ferocity coupled with offside and killing the ball make it impossible for us to play. Annoyingly we never seem to be able to counter it either.

Well - there was that 1 season. Where we lost against them in the big game - but went on to beat them at Wembley!

Yappysnap the problem is Quins have had the tendency to want to run the ball more often than they should. I remember a game at Twickenham when Marler tried to run it from really deep, Strettle intercepted the pass = easy try.

If you can stop the Quins offloading game there's no plan B in my opinion.

Sarries have a very good recent record vs Quins - I think 7 wins out of 8.

Quins must find a way to win. It's crucial for their confidence to get a win over their nemesis.

Yappy's analysis is spot on, I'd say. Sarries give far less room for Quins to play in than nearly any other team, not all of it legally, and we haven't consistently found an answer.

That said, the way we played against Saints suggested a possible route, despite the result. There, we kicked more, offloaded less and defended pretty well. After that, it's a matter of being patient and clinical. Sarries have - surprisingly - missed about 1 in 6 tackles so far this season and also have a fairly low winning percentage in the scrum. Quins have beaten a lot of defenders and the scrum is generally doing the job and getting the ball back.

The best bet may well be to play as if it's raining.

Quins are going to have to find a way to deal with their new lighter weight pack. Johnstone and Kohn have not been replaced like for like and at the minute it shows. Nick Easter seems to be rolling back the years and Big Mo is putting a shift in but removing those two from contention the Quins pack lack and carriers of real power outside the front row. Clifford and Wallace may be about to break through but they aren't going to offer the same grunt ball in hand. Part of me thinks Quins should have gone toe to toe with Sarries and tried to get Billy Vunipola in the summer.

If Quins are to beat Sarries they need to exploit the lack of of a natural 13. Bath found room out wide to attack from in the second half with Ford at the helm. They must win the kicking battle which Heathcote made a mess of at the weekend as the Sarries forwards will tire and concede penalties if they are having to force their way out of their own half ball in hand time and again.

Sam good points there. On current form if we lost Easter and Mo we'd be screwed as they're pretty much all of our physical players. Guest helps a bit though and Trayfoot has a bit about him. Robson could cover well at 6 if Mathews/Kennedy was back.

The only issue with exploiting their 13 is that ours (Lowe) is having a bit of a slow start to the season too. Hopper might do better there if he has enough protection around him otherwise he could be a liability.

I'm not sure how much of that I agree with, actually. I think Lowe has looked sharp, particularly in the last two matches where his tackling stats have been good and he's done a very decent job as the crash ball centre (which Casson, for all his virtues, is not) - especially considering his size. Also, very harsh to call any performance that included that tap tackle on Varndell slow!

We are missing a bit of carrying power without Kohn, but Merrick has been far more effective than I'd expected and the combination of Marler, Buchanan, Robson, Easter, a rejuvenated Mo and Guest is hardly lacking in go forward, especially given Guest's ability to step opponents rather than just blitz them.

Where we really miss Olly is in defending mauls and in driving the ball carrier over the line at close quarters.

But I do agree that putting the ball in Sarries' half when we can (a job for Botica, perhaps?), running their pack around the park (which we absolutely can do) and targetting the centre channels has the makings of a strategy.

I agree with what others have said here. In my view, the way to take on Sarries, apart from big performances at the breakdown by Chris and the set piece by, well, everyone (we should be able to target JJ's technical flaws if he plays though) are the following:

1) Saracens really pressure our halfback combo. The back row and Easter taking on first receiver roles to counter this will be vital and we know they can all do that very well indeed. They (mostly Mo) also need to provide an option off Nev's shoulder to counter the blitz with a simple pass. If we can take a bit of pressure off Danny he can exploit an over eager defence and take more pressure off Nev

2) Nev needs to kick well, at the posts and in general play. If he isn't someone else needs to and that means Botica at 10 or 12. Mike needs to be at his best and stop their kicking game in return. He is excellent at this and should trust his boot a bit more than we usually do against them

3) moving the ball around, when it works, is very effective and should be no less effective against a rush defence, but we need some straight runners to put that defence on the back foot. See above for Mo, but also Brown needs to join the line and Ugo look for work off his wing

4) Let Lowe have a field day against their centres

If we can gain parity in the areas Sarries usually enjoy dominance in (the lineout, the breakdown, tactical kicking and their defence) by fronting up, and give our backs an even contest on hard grounds, I back them to win any time. But that is a big if

yappysnap wrote:Sam good points there. On current form if we lost Easter and Mo we'd be screwed as they're pretty much all of our physical players. Guest helps a bit though and Trayfoot has a bit about him. Robson could cover well at 6 if Mathews/Kennedy was back.

The only issue with exploiting their 13 is that ours (Lowe) is having a bit of a slow start to the season too. Hopper might do better there if he has enough protection around him otherwise he could be a liability.

Lowe looked good against Worcester and Saints was hardly the time for him to shine in attack. He'll be fine. I'd much rather we didn't start Hopper tbh

Also, where has logan gone...

" We are missing a bit of carrying power without Kohn, but Merrick has been far more effective than I'd expected and the combination of Marler, Buchanan, Robson, Easter, a rejuvenated Mo and Guest is hardly lacking in go forward, especially given Guest's ability to step opponents rather than just blitz them."

I was talking about the pack outside of the front row carrying into traffic. Robson is not impressive in that regard, in fact his carrying is pretty poor. Guest is in my view grossly overrated in terms of power, his foot work is ok but he really needs a gap to burst through, he won't create one himself and even against Wuss he was poor. Mo and Easter are as you say, beasts ball in hand but both are getting on a bit and there's currently no direct succession planning taking place. Trayfoot and Clifford are certainly good prospects (great prospect really if we're talking Clifford) but if they aren't forcing their way into the team and Quins aren't investing in big carriers then there's a big reliance on Mo and Easter.

Tigers had a similar problem a few years back (we were looking to Crane to carry every other phase almost) and went out and recruited Waldrom, Mafi and Slater. We got very lucky in regards to Slater and Mafi to be honest. Sometimes you just need an extra unit in the pack to just smash it up and give your flair players front foot ball to work from.

Brown (and the bigger Ugo) can carry, I'd like to see him come onto an inside pop off Nev occasionally

That's also where you want Guest and Robshaw coming into play as well. I was thinking of the bosh closer in. Certainly the Quins backs can more than hold their own should their forwards present them with some good ball.

In which case we definitely rely on Mo continuing to play well

Even Easter has slimmed a bit, he can still carry but he's been working on his work-rate

Sam - looking back over the previous 2 games, Guest was on the pitch for 26 minutes vs Saints and 40 minutes vs Worcs. In those 66 minutes he made 7 carries for a total of 49m. That's an average of 7m per carry - which is excellent yardage for a back rower. In fact, over the 2 games no other Quin averaged more metres per carry.

Guest isn't a bulldozer like Morgan or Vunipola, but he does find gaps for himself. It's just that he does it by going round players rather than through them.

But Sam is right to say that someone who can bulldoze for yards is important too, Poorfour

ChequeredJersey wrote:But Sam is right to say that someone who can bulldoze for yards is important too, Poorfour

We've got a couple of players who can do that. A bit of variety might be helpful. I wonder if we'll start with Guest and Easter both on the pitch.

I think we will

I don't think we know how good Easter is in the engine room yet. And his twitter messages make it seem like he really doesn't want to be there. So that'll be Easter at 8 and Guest at 6, meaning we lose Mo's wrecking ball runs but gain Guests stepping skills and pace off the mark.

Pourfour i'm glad you're confident. To me though our pack is still a way behind most of the other title chasers.

Merrick is a stop gap, he's not looked out of place but I'd still take a heck of a lot of other locks over him if we had the option. Robson is a quality club lock but again he isn't anything like what Kohn brought. Marler is quality but has plenty of off days. Likewise Buchanan and the rest of the front rowers. We're looking on the right track but I'd still suggest we're a long way off.

When I was talking about Lowe I really meant creating things, yes he's always been a fantastic defender but it just seems he isn't creating much at the moment, we've seen very little of him ball in hand and he isn't helping to unleash the wings in any way.

I'm not particularly confident. For one thing, we have a poor recent record against Sarries and for another they played exceptionally well on Sunday.

But I really don't think our pack is a way behind. Saints may well have the most star-studded pack in the AP this season, but the stats were very even. We won a marginally higher percentage of rucks and all our mauls, while they lost one of theirs. We won 8 and lost 1 scrum to their 4 and 0, and the lineout position was 14 and 2 to 15 and 0. Possession was 50/50 in the first half and 62/38 in the second.

I find it hard to see how that is "a way behind", unless you count the number of times a commentator gushes over a player as a serious metric of performance.

The second game in a long season isn't the best barometer to go by though. And don't forget we were the home team and just managed parity but still lost. Lets look at Saints at home and then judge our pack.

We may have only lost one scrum but I think IIRC a lot of ours were under a heap of pressure and it took all Easter's experience to make the ball useable.

look I'm not trying to be the new Logan but at the same time I do think that we are the weakest (currently) of the top four. I do expect us to get better though.

I thought our scrums vs Saints were fine except a couple of penalties, some could have gone the other way. Saints are also better at scrummaging than Sarries or pretty much anyone

I cannot say that it was a pleasure watching my team get hammered by your guys (the scoreline flattered us), but it certainly was a privilege. I would sum it up by saying that I have NEVER seen rugby played with that pace. Watching live you often could not see where the ball was, or who had it. Very, very impressive.

My inital thoughts after watching the game were that, although we are only Worcester, there are not many teams who could have lived with Quins on that day, and in those conditions. I then thought that Sarries, with their huge power game may have been able to nullify you.

A real clash of styles in store. My guess is that the team that brings their A game will win. If both do then I would expect Sarries to win 7/10 times. Still, I love your brand of rugby, and will certainly be rooting for you.

The ref is Fox. Best not make any predictions, anything could happen now

tooboredtowork wrote:I cannot say that it was a pleasure watching my team get hammered by your guys (the scoreline flattered us), but it certainly was a privilege. I would sum it up by saying that I have NEVER seen rugby played with that pace. Watching live you often could not see where the ball was, or who had it. Very, very impressive.

My inital thoughts after watching the game were that, although we are only Worcester, there are not many teams who could have lived with Quins on that day, and in those conditions. I then thought that Sarries, with their huge power game may have been able to nullify you.

A real clash of styles in store. My guess is that the team that brings their A game will win. If both do then I would expect Sarries to win 7/10 times. Still, I love your brand of rugby, and will certainly be rooting for you.

Cheers Tooboredtowork, I am proud of Quins and how COS (with Richards before him) has us performing. To me what makes us so different to the team that we'll be playing on Saturday and nearly every other team in this league is that we care just as much about entertaining and putting on a performance for our fans (and any one else watching) as we do about winning.

Let's hope the good guys win this weekend    

yappysnap wrote:

tooboredtowork wrote:I cannot say that it was a pleasure watching my team get hammered by your guys (the scoreline flattered us), but it certainly was a privilege. I would sum it up by saying that I have NEVER seen rugby played with that pace. Watching live you often could not see where the ball was, or who had it. Very, very impressive.

My inital thoughts after watching the game were that, although we are only Worcester, there are not many teams who could have lived with Quins on that day, and in those conditions. I then thought that Sarries, with their huge power game may have been able to nullify you.

A real clash of styles in store. My guess is that the team that brings their A game will win. If both do then I would expect Sarries to win 7/10 times. Still, I love your brand of rugby, and will certainly be rooting for you.

Cheers Tooboredtowork, I am proud of Quins and how COS (with Richards before him) has us performing. To me what makes us so different to the team that we'll be playing on Saturday and nearly every other team in this league is that we care just as much about entertaining and putting on a performance for our fans (and any one else watching) as we do about winning.

Let's hope the good guys win this weekend    

That there is loser talk  I think it was the season they won the league that it was their performance without the ball that was impressive. Not sure if they have the pack to compete all year but if the young guys come good it should be there next season or the one after that. Kohn will be greatly missed.

Hammer, with that mindset we're always winners. Even if we lose on the score board if we play nice rugby then we're the moral winners... 

Agreed the team is looking on the right track, but then the other clubs won't be standing still either. Mathews has massive boots to fill when he's back from injury. If he doesn't step up then we're a little fooked.

I've always liked COS stance of we play our best. If that's good enough to win, we win. If not we did what we could.

If you always try your best you don't give up when the game is lost and you don't let up when the game is won. That's not the same as just chucking it about and having a laugh.

That's not quite COS's stance. He cares about performance more than results - in fact one of the squad's mantras is "Win every minute". The principle is that if you win enough minutes, the result will take care of itself. That's then combined with a genuine desire to play a fast, attacking style of rugby - "rugby as it should be" is another mantra.

I've had the pleasure of sitting in the press room a few times when I've been writing for Comeallwithin, and seen him beaming about games where we've played well and lost, and much less happy about comfortable wins where the performance has been weaker.

Maybe I just misunderstood him after you lost a game (I think it was after the win at Welford Road actually).

Yappysnap do you really care about performance in a crucial match like a HC cup knock out game or playoff match which are must win?

As you say it's different mindset. You like to play exciting all the time whereas Leicester and Sarries are more pragmatic.

Leicester score more tries than the likes of Quins,Gloucester and London Irish yet are perceived as less exciting.


Hammerofthunor is correct. The season that Quins won the league it was built upon a surprisingly strong defence. It's hardly surprising that the likes of Leicester and Sarries have decent defences too - something that "exciting" sides like Gloucester and London Irish generally lack which let them down.

Beshocked, I think that mixes up "performance" and "entertainment". Last season's win over Tigers at Welford Road was a very pragmatic win - but everyone including Tigers fans was agreed that it was perhaps Quins' most complete performance of the last few years, because we controlled every facet of the game.

Performance for Quins means winning the contact, winning the breakdown, winning the set piece - the same as it does for everyone else. But we choose to play in a style that looks to use the ball

Poorfour that game vs Tigers was really good for Quins. The problem is you haven't been able to put in consistent performances like that. When it clicks you are very good side but when it doesn't.....

Playing the style you aspire to requires a lot of skill but is also not impossible to stop.

The likes of Tigers and Sarries do look to use the ball but just don't chuck it around with the same frequency as Quins. It's certainly a different style.

It's interesting to see Saracens attack evolving because of Kevin Sorrell for example.

Saturday's forecast is for rain, so I suspect we may see something more like the Saints game than either of last weekend's performances. I just hope our 10 has his kicking boots on.

The real test for Quins is whether they can cope with Sarries at the breakdown while remaining solid in defence. Defensively, we've looked better this season than last season, so I am reasonably confident there; the challenge against Sarries has been getting quick enough ball to create anything - especially if the ref lets them flop over the ball (which several teams have sussed out is an effective tactic against Quins if the ref is lax on it).

I saw that Gough has recently signed for Irish, would he have been a good poach for Quins I wonder?
With Kohn and Johnson gone, the front 5 doesnt look as strong as the other top 4 teams. It wasn't necessarily the strongest before, but it could hold its own and allow the all court game from the backs/backrow.

I also feel that this is a big season for Botica, Evans is still a quality player but he isn't going to be able to win as many games single handly any more.

I hope Quins have a strong season, I enjoy their style of play and they are my nearest club these days, but I can't help thinking that Sarries are looking ominiously strong at the moment.

With Tigers' injury woes, Sarries are to my mind the team to beat in this part of the season - though never, never discount Tigers' ability to do what it takes to be there at the end of the season.

However, I am not worried about Quins' pack, other than the growing injury list. We're a bit short of experience at TH and 4, but not of talent. PDJ is an international, Collier is an age grade international and Sinckler in time may be better than either of them. At lock Merrick and Easter have both gone well and we have Kennedy and Matthews to come back in. Matthews in particular is due a breakthrough season now he's got a clear chance to be first choice.

And as I've posted above, in its most serious test so far the numbers say our pack held up well. I'd argue that 62% possession in the second half (that's 60% more than Saints had) after an even first half is some way better than parity.

This far, Sarries pack has been excellent in the lineout (no big surprise) but has lost a fair few scrums and given away quite a lot of penalties (JJ managed 3 from the bench on Sunday!). They have also missed a fair few tackles - though I guess this is the result of a rush defence and that the cover tackling has made up for it. That suggests that if Quins can break the initial tackle and offload to support they could stretch the defence, and they won't be too worried about knock-ons in the wet if the pattern of scrums holds up.

Plus our handling against Saints was pretty good

Gough would have been excellent short term cover for anyone at lock. A real workhorse. It all depends on how you can handly them (injured players) in the short term.

It is a coincidence that two of Tigers long term injuries - Manu and Croft were involved on the Lions tour? I don't think so.

Poorfour you talk about Tiger injury woes. Tigers should have the strength in depth to absorb these. I think Tiger's injury woes are hugely exaggerated.The pack is mostly intact. Tigers are a bloody good side.

I wouldn't look too much into the 2nd half vs Bath, the match and try bonus were achieved in the 1st half.

I suppose it depends if you think Saints are a stronger side than Sarries. Personally I don't but of course I am biased.

In regards to missing tackles, yup Sarries have missed some but they've scored more tries. It's generally natural that if you score more tries your defence is not quite as solid itself as you take more risks - e.g. one of Bath's tries was an interception.

I am happy to concede 2 tries if my side scores 4 for example.

So far Sarries have been breaching defences - 13 tries, 3 try bonuses would suggest this. It will be interesting to see how Quin's defence holds up.

Bear in mind that Quins' try count so far is based upon the 4 racked up vs Worcester and 1 vs Wasps.

Beshocked, I am not knocking Sarries. I think they will probably win; I was just pointing out where Quins would have to focus to win. And I didn't say Saints were a better side - but their pack's stats are currently better.

I don't read much into the try count at this stage. Quins had a poor game against Wasps, and the weather against Saints wasn't exactly try scoring weather. Given the opposition and the predicted rain, I'm not expecting a tryfest on Saturday, though.

"Jordan Turner-Hall saw a specialist and required surgery on a hip injury last Saturday. The centre is expected to be out until the New Year and joins Joe Gray, Paul Doran Jones, Charlie Matthews, Nick Kennedy, Sam Twomey, Ross Chisholm, Ollie Lindsay-Hague, Sam Stuart and Harry Sloan on the list of those who are unavailable for selection due to injury. "

Oh god, the AIs (losing Care, Brown, Robshaw and Marler, possibly) won't be good unl;ess we get a few players back!

15- Walker? Williams?
14- Williams (or Sackey if at 15)
13- Lowe (please don't call him up...)
12- Casson
11- Monye
10- Evans
9- Dickson
8- Guest
7- Wallace
6- Fa'asalavu
5- Robson
4- Easter
3- Collier
2- Buchanan
1- Lambert

Marfo, Ward, Sinckler, Merrick, Clifford, Burns, Botica, Hopper

a bit lightweight!

That's a pretty decent XXIII - the only real weak spot is at fullback without Brown or Chis, and we can't afford to lose another lock - but OLH and Matthews are due back before too long.

Still it's a long injury list. I hope it will actually pay back in terms of having more players fit later in the campaign.

Poorfour wrote:That's a pretty decent XXIII - the only real weak spot is at fullback without Brown or Chis, and we can't afford to lose another lock - but OLH and Matthews are due back before too long.

Still it's a long injury list. I hope it will actually pay back in terms of having more players fit later in the campaign.

To be fair a much ignored aspect of our winning season was that we had injuries early on, only played our best 15 in the final and that helped them be fresh!

Poorfour bit of a gamble relying on the scrum in my opinion. Especially as I think the Sarries front five looks stronger.

If I was Quins I would try to put pressure on our centres and 9. It's imperative that you at least win your own ball at the lineout and find some fluency with ball in hand.

I think the breakdown battle is perhaps the most important. Quins need good quick ball if they are to unlock the Sarries defence. I think Quins have a decent backrow so it should be a good contest in that area.

Really Chequeredjersey? I thought in the season you won the AP you had one of the least amount of world cup call ups which aided you significantly. Only 3 I believe. I thought that was an important factor in Quins racking up wins early in the season.

It was, but the injury list gets ignored- at various points in the earlyish part of the season we lost Care, Nev, Robson, Brooker, Williams, Collier, Mayhew, Ollie Smith, Monye, Lowe, JTH, Casson, Kohn, and maybe others. The team that won the title in the final didn't play a competitive match together at any other point that season.