Starting England XV for the november internationals.

by flankertye Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Borthwick plus Attwood would be a formidable combo IMO

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:17 pm

beshocked wrote:FES you would want one of the best lineout operators in the world to play vs Scotland? Fair enough.

I just don't think his allround game is good enough for international rugby. He isn't quick, his handling skills aren't very good, he made almost zero impact as a ball carrier in international rugby and although his workrate is decent, he just wasn't very effective at international rugby at the breakdown and clearing rucks (and a non-entity in the maul when compared to the likes of Shaw).

Scotland have a similar player in Al Kellock. Superb leader at Glasgow and runs an excellent lineout. At Rabo level he's a central figure in the Glasgow pack and a leader, in much the same way as Borthwick at Sarries. Yet stick a Scotland jersey on him and he just doesn't make the same impact. He gets to rucks but doesn't have the dynamism and power to clear them, and when the ball ends up in his hands, he just gets knocked back.

It's a touch simplistic, but I put Kellock and Borthwick in the camp of great club players, worth their weight in gold week in week out, but not what you aspire to at international level.

by thomh Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or how about working on units...

Sarries are steamrollering everyone...why not just pick the sarries side with the non English replaced by the best Englishman in that position...that would give us something like:

1 Mako V
2 T.Youngs
3 M.Stevens
4 Kruis
5 Borthwick
6 Billy V
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Wigglesworth
10 Farrell
11 Stettle
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 Ashton
15 Goode

As much as I do not want to see that team picked, it's better than some of the XVs we've put out since 2003.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:32 pm

thomh wrote:As much as I do not want to see that team picked, it's better than some of the XVs we've put out since 2003.

The Tindall/Noon centre partnership was I think my particular favourite (although Noon's hattrick against Scotland was a real low for us).

by **LondonTiger** Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Parling is not injured. Due to Lions tour and EPS agreements he has to miss a certain number of matches before the AIs.

As to Borthwick - for me he has always been an excellent club player, but not quite good enough for internationals. He is not world class at any single attribute, and his all-round game is just a little underpowered. People who criticise his leadership though should take a step back and just look at the different coaches who selected him as a captain at Bath, England and Sarries. SCW and then Andy robinson palpably failed to bring on the next generation of players - for which Brian Ashton, MJ and yes Borthwick suffered as they attempted to turn the team around.

I guess too i will always remember Borthwicks first test, when France battered him in the line-out. He was replaced by Martin Corry early on who proceeded to dominate the lineout.

by beshocked Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:40 pm

FES I suppose that's a fair assessment.

thomh agree with that.

I think the future of England rugby looks a lot brighter than it did.

by Geordie Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:40 pm

Noon goes into your Borthwick / Kellock camp FES...he was a very good club player...just maybe not quite an international star...

by Chjw131 Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:43 pm

beshocked wrote:Yes Bathite I think he is. Much maligned by England fans. A scapegoat for Martin Johnson's failings. Wasn't exactly part of a particularly strong English team. I believe with the right balance in the pack he would have been more successful for England.

I think he gets as much blame for some of his lacklustre post match talks than he does for his performances on the pitch.

Still got 57 caps for England.

That is the nub of it as far as Borthwick is concerned. He's remembered for those awful post-match interviews as England Captain where he was seen to excuse some terrible displays from an England side. In all honesty he was being pretty loyal to his team-mates but that's not how it came across. It seemed as though he was excusing mediocrity.

As a player you couldn't ask for someone more dedicated and highly accomplished as a line-out operator. Since Matfield retired arguably the world's best. In a pack of 1. A Corbisiero 2. T Youngs 3. D Wilson 4. D Attwood 5. S Borthwick 6. T Wood 7. C Robshaw 8. B Morgan I would have no doubt he would perform well. He's not relied on to do any carrying and he tackles very well, if not aggressively.

Still probably doesn't offer quite as much all round as Parling but a superior line-out.

by beshocked Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:51 pm

Geordiefalcon that's just insulting to Borthwick and Kellock comparing them to Noon in my opinion.

chjw131 agree with that.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:59 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon that's just insulting to Borthwick and Kellock comparing them to Noon in my opinion.

In your opinion. Personally I reckon Noon got far more stick than he deserved.

by lostinwales Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:03 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon that's just insulting to Borthwick and Kellock comparing them to Noon in my opinion.
In your opinion. Personally I reckon Noon got far more stick than he deserved.

Well he scored some good tries against some good teams, but only the comparison with Tindall made his handling skills look even the slightest bit acceptable

by Bathite Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:09 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
thomh wrote:As much as I do not want to see that team picked, it's better than some of the XVs we've put out since 2003.
The Tindall/Noon centre partnership was I think my particular favourite (although Noon's hattrick against Scotland was a real low for us).

I'll see your Tindall / Noon and raise you Noon / Erinle!

by beshocked Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:17 pm

Londontiger I did say it was in my opinion. Plus Borthwick has done far more at club level than Noon.

Noon won't go down as a club great will he? Borthwick in all likelhood will.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:18 pm

Bathite wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
thomh wrote:As much as I do not want to see that team picked, it's better than some of the XVs we've put out since 2003.
The Tindall/Noon centre partnership was I think my particular favourite (although Noon's hattrick against Scotland was a real low for us).
I'll see your Tindall / Noon and raise you Noon / Erinle!

Noon/Erinle never played together.

Jamie Noon was not international class, but he was a very, very good club player. That 5 different England coaches selected him during his 38 test career says a lot more about the quality of othre england centres. Not his fault that he was the best of a poor bunch for a while.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:22 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I did say it was in my opinion. Plus Borthwick has done far more at club level than Noon.

Noon won't go down as a club great will he? Borthwick in all likelhood will.

I may be being unfair - but I doubt you would be defending Borthwick had he stayed at Bath.

Until May, Borthwick had a better club record than Jonny Wilkinson - does not make him a better player Very Happy

We are arguing about semantics, but surely comparing Noon as a really good club player who got more caps than his talent would suggest with Borthwick and Kellock is a long way from being insulting. Seems like a reasonable comparison to me.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:25 pm

I always thought that England could have made more of Stuart Abbot and Ollie Smith during that period - I realise that injuries played a big role in limiting those two (and JS-D), but I'm not sure they were always picked when they could have been.

Both Sir Clive and Robinson tried to change the team by making small changes here and there to the 2003 side, when in fact wholesale changes were required. Players were picked on reputation rather than form, and the tactics were left behind when compared to the SH sides.

by beshocked Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:59 pm

Londontiger perhaps I wouldn't defend Borthwick if he was still at Bath. Equally I would not defend him if he was not hugely influential at Saracens.

Well I don't see Noon as a fair comparison due to various factors like Noon having quite a few less caps, playing a different position, Noon not being as effective at club level or even a club captain.

Comparing Borthwick to Kellock makes far more sense.

by king_carlos Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:16 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
thomh wrote:As much as I do not want to see that team picked, it's better than some of the XVs we've put out since 2003.
The Tindall/Noon centre partnership was I think my particular favourite (although Noon's hattrick against Scotland was a real low for us).

Off the top of my head I'd throw in:

- Erinle at 12
- Sanderson at 8
- Banahan at centre when he couldn't pass or kick
- Big Lesley
- Pairing Kennedy and Borthwick together
- Selecting Tim Payne forever and more

Also in fairness to England sides 'post 03' they weren't half hampered by injuries. We knew many players were going to retire but the number of early retirements and then career ruining injuries to expected replacements was phenomenal. Then throw in guys who lost form rapidly or for significant periods.

Woodman - Retired at 28 in 2004 due to injury
Thompson - Spent a long time injured, retired early then returned
Vickery - Major injury problems between 03 RWC to 07 Six nations
Hill - Dodgy knees meant he played his last England game in 2004 aged 31
Dallagio - retired then returned
Forrester - Looked like Dallagio's replacement but continually hampered by injured then retired early
Rees - Spent huge spells on the sideline due to injury then retired last season
Wilkinson - Think we all know about that!
Robinson - Retired from internationals young then returned, his absence was keenly felt when gone though
Cohen and Balshaw - drastically lost form for England post RWC 03 and never really regained it for a significant period
Abbott - Looked like the heir to the Greenwood throne but continually hampered by injury then retired early at 29
Simpson Daniel - We all know the story too well there

That's off the top of my head and people can feel free to throw other names in if they feel they are pertinent - guys such as Olly Morgan and Richard Blaze would've been expected to make a much bigger impact than they have been able to due to injury for instance.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:24 pm

Frankly we aren't too bad right now when we look back a bit! A lot of that is due to Lancaster genuinely picking largely on form, on the fact that we didn't "lose" the current generation, on Clubs focussing on bringing up English talent but also on MJ who brought a lot of our current top players through

by Hood83 Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon in my opinion a team is all about having balance. Bit like life actually.

Borthwick has and never will be a good ball carrier. It's his defensive work,huge workrate and excellent lineout that make him a decent player. Put in him in a pack which balances itself out and he's very effective.

I feel most of the criticism comes for his lacklustre ball carrying and perceived lack of charisma as England captain.

He's not an eyecatching player, he's not particularly charismatic when he speaks but he's popular with players and works very hard.

lostinwales I disagree to an extent. I think his lineout ability was missing and still is. No English player matches him in that area in my opinion. I know some might think Parling does but I haven't seen that at international level consistently.

Lineout is a huge part of the set piece.

Parling is more popular because he is better with ball in hand.

Probably correct, but then I'm not sure it was even lacklustre. I think he must have made a net loss in metres made. I think he was a Reuben Thorne, top captain and v good at areas, but also made better by being in better teams. Utterly anonymous at international level, but would agree we miss a top lineout operator. My team

1. Corbs
2. Youngs - was tempted by Webber, I'm not sure I want Youngs against a team like SA or Wales, but his rucking against Oz and Arg I think is important.
3. Wilson - I'd probably feel safer with the familiarity of Cole, but Wilson has been in far better form.
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury - Not entirely convinced, I'd like Parling's experience but I think Launchbury has more about him and is in good form.
6. Wood - Against bigger packs, I wouldn't have him - Haskell or BV there.
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola - A tough one, BV is a rough diamond who'll make mistakes. But Morgan just looks so far from form and fitness.
9. Care - I think he's now miles ahead of Youngs in all areas of the game
10. Flood - Still a better all-rounder than Farrell or Burns - but would like to see those guys given time.
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph - For his defence ahead of Trinder, but Trinder is he gets more gametime.
14. Ashton - Wade v close
15. Foden.

by Geordie Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:07 am

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon that's just insulting to Borthwick and Kellock comparing them to Noon in my opinion.

chjw131 agree with that.

Please explain how that was insulting...oh sorry because i was apparently having a go at a Saracens player...you know this chip on your shoulder about your players is becoming boring Beshocked. God forbid any Saracens player being criticised eh?

by Bathite Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:45 am

You should know by now that Saracens are the greatest team on the planet and that every one of their players that isn't an England player is hugely under rated and that the academy is the best in the world and that there will be a statistic to quote to back all of this up!

by Triangulation Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am

Chaps, chaps, chaps,

We must manage expectations here.

The media have built us up buttercup, baby just to let us down.

Please do not fall for it.

Let's be realistic about our Autumn prospects, the 6N and beyond to the RWC.

The attritional style of rugby preferred by our club coaches will continue to see the injuries stack up.

Our 1st XV is half decent but rarely does any team get to field it's best XV and by the time we get to the AIs we'll be down to third stringers in many positions.

On top of that other posters have correctly pointed out that our coaches have been less than inventive so even if we can win some good 1st phase ball we look bereft of ideas in terms of using that ball.

Our basic skill levels are behind SA, NZ and AUS and our players both lack both the innate rugby smarts of the kiwis, the devil of the australians and the power of the saffas and the welsh.

We must be an incredibly easy side to defend against.

I can see us losing all of our AIs to be honest and getting a realy pantsing from a fired up All Blacks side hellbent on revenge for our win over them last autumn.

Odds on were in for another middling 6N.

By the next RWC we will not be anywhere near Lancaster's stated goal of 40 Test caps per man and will struggle to get out of the "Pool of Death" at our own RWC.

If this were not enough it now looks as though our union is heading the way of football with the clubs ruling supreme. We have all seen how well that system works for the national football side.

I urge you all to accept these basic truths and you will set yourselves free.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 am

Triangulation wrote:Chaps, chaps, chaps,

We must manage expectations here.

The media have built us up buttercup, baby just to let us down.

Please do not fall for it.

Let's be realistic about our Autumn prospects, the 6N and beyond to the RWC.

The attritional style of rugby preferred by our club coaches will continue to see the injuries stack up.

Our 1st XV is half decent but rarely does any team get to field it's best XV and by the time we get to the AIs we'll be down to third stringers in many positions.

On top of that other posters have correctly pointed out that our coaches have been less than inventive so even if we can win some good 1st phase ball we look bereft of ideas in terms of using that ball.

Our basic skill levels are behind SA, NZ and AUS and our players both lack both the innate rugby smarts of the kiwis, the devil of the australians and the power of the saffas and the welsh.

We must be an incredibly easy side to defend against.

I can see us losing all of our AIs to be honest and getting a realy pantsing from a fired up All Blacks side hellbent on revenge for our win over them last autumn.

Odds on were in for another middling 6N.

By the next RWC we will not be anywhere near Lancaster's stated goal of 40 Test caps per man and will struggle to get out of the "Pool of Death" at our own RWC.

If this were not enough it now looks as though our union is heading the way of football with the clubs ruling supreme. We have all seen how well that system works for the national football side.

I urge you all to accept these basic truths and you will set yourselves free.

I know we should focus on our own form and players foremost, but if Australia and Argentina's form doesn't drastically improve before the AIs and we lose to them, at home, that is not acceptable. Australia are at their lowest point in a long time and it is our duty to kick them while they are down

by Bathman_in_London Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 am

A few years back Grewcock and Borthwick were a very good combo, 1 'enforcer' and 1 lineout man.
Sadly Brownsword decided he didnt want to pay any of our big names a decent wage and Borthers, Tindall, Delve, Voyce, Balshaw, Catt etc all cleared off.

An amusing(ish) story about Borthwick.
When he first played a few times for England (including that awful debut) he got into a little scuffle in training at Bath with a young academy player. Determined to lay down the law he tried to sit the cheeky kid down. The result was 1 punch to the nose and Borthwick on the floor doing his best Wade Dooley impression. I don't think the cut on his nose ever healed... The academy lad in question was Gareth Delve.

Returning slightly more to the present, my personal feeling is that these days having someone competent in the lineout is enough, and that there isn't room for an 'expert' who doesnt offer as much around the field. Certainly looking at the younger second rows coming through, most are big blokes who are learning to call the lineout rather than being experts in it.

by Bathite Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:51 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:

An amusing(ish) story about Borthwick.
When he first played a few times for England (including that awful debut) he got into a little scuffle in training at Bath with a young academy player. Determined to lay down the law he tried to sit the cheeky kid down. The result was 1 punch to the nose and Borthwick on the floor doing his best Wade Dooley impression. I don't think the cut on his nose ever healed... The academy lad in question was Gareth Delve.

I hadn't heard that before, enjoyed that a lot!

by Geordie Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:55 am

Bathman you have a point. Attwood is improving in this area and his current form and bulk is why most are suggesting he shold start..., then you have Parling, Lawes whos lineout is improving rapidly, Launchbury etc...critically its the hookers that concern me more in their lack of ability to hit a barn door with their throws...Hartley excepted...

by Triangulation Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:57 am

[quote="ChequeredJersey"]

Triangulation wrote:Chaps, chaps, chaps,

We must manage expectations here.

The media have built us up buttercup, baby just to let us down.

Please do not fall for it.

Let's be realistic about our Autumn prospects, the 6N and beyond to the RWC.

The attritional style of rugby preferred by our club coaches will continue to see the injuries stack up.

Our 1st XV is half decent but rarely does any team get to field it's best XV and by the time we get to the AIs we'll be down to third stringers in many positions.

On top of that other posters have correctly pointed out that our coaches have been less than inventive so even if we can win some good 1st phase ball we look bereft of ideas in terms of using that ball.

Our basic skill levels are behind SA, NZ and AUS and our players both lack both the innate rugby smarts of the kiwis, the devil of the australians and the power of the saffas and the welsh.

We must be an incredibly easy side to defend against.

I can see us losing all of our AIs to be honest and getting a realy pantsing from a fired up All Blacks side hellbent on revenge for our win over them last autumn.

Odds on were in for another middling 6N.

By the next RWC we will not be anywhere near Lancaster's stated goal of 40 Test caps per man and will struggle to get out of the "Pool of Death" at our own RWC.

If this were not enough it now looks as though our union is heading the way of football with the clubs ruling supreme. We have all seen how well that system works for the national football side.

I urge you all to accept these basic truths and you will set yourselves free.

[/quote
I know we should focus on our own form and players foremost, but if Australia and Argentina's form doesn't drastically improve before the AIs and we lose to them, at home, that is not acceptable. Australia are at their lowest point in a long time and it is our duty to kick them while they are down

Acceptable or not this is what we're looking at and i suggest that we all start to get our heads around it asap for our own good.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:58 am

We'll see, Triangulation, I'm a lot more optimistic than you and I don't think I'm being naive in that.

by Geordie Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:06 pm

CJ

If we can get the off form critical players fit and firing in the next few weeks (ala Morgan, though i be perfectly happy with Billy V) and get the selection balance right with breakdown /workhorse players and essential carriers then i will be quietly confident aswell.

I believe we have the players...

I hope we see a bit more expansive play from Farrell (he seems a little more comfortable with this), which should be helped having Twelvetrees outside him...and then possibly Burrell at 13 interchanging if we are looking to directly replace Tuilagis power...or someone like Eastmond/ Lowe/ Joseph/ etc if we are looking for more of a runner / playmaker type.

by Bathman_in_London Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bathman you have a point. Attwood is improving in this area and his current form and bulk is why most are suggesting he shold start..., then you have Parling, Lawes whos lineout is improving rapidly, Launchbury etc...critically its the hookers that concern me more in their lack of ability to hit a barn door with their throws...Hartley excepted...

I agree Geordie, certainly the throwing standards generally seems poor. The fact that Paice was brought on the Argentine tour was pretty worrying in terms of where Sl sees the hookers below Hartley, Youngs and Webber. Hopefully George will get more game time for Sarries this year and emerge as a viable alternative.

by Chjw131 Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:CJ

If we can get the off form critical players fit and firing in the next few weeks (ala Morgan, though i be perfectly happy with Billy V) and get the selection balance right with breakdown /workhorse players and essential carriers then i will be quietly confident aswell.

I believe we have the players...

I hope we see a bit more expansive play from Farrell (he seems a little more comfortable with this), which should be helped having Twelvetrees outside him...and then possibly Burrell at 13 interchanging if we are looking to directly replace Tuilagis power...or someone like Eastmond/ Lowe/ Joseph/ etc if we are looking for more of a runner / playmaker type.

That has to be the number one priority now, getting the first choice players into top form. We'll need to be seriously on our mettle with Tuilagi out. I don't think we'll see Burrell step up just yet. More likely Eastmond at 13 if he comes back or Joseph. 36 is probably thought to offer enough direct running to compensate partially for the loss of Manu.

That's part of the reason we need to get the balance of carriers in the pack right. With Manu out I think it's even more critical that the likes of Davy Wilson start due to his far superior ball carrying ability.

by Fluxy Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Just to add my two pence worth.

Fluxy wrote:

1. Corbs - Answers itself really, one of the best LHs around at the minute.
2. T Youngs - Not really anyone that has put their hand up so far. And I think this trio needs to form a tight bond as a unit.
3. Cole - Again top of the tree really. Wilson is pushing hard, but not quite there.
4. Dave Attwood - Think its time we tried him out in a proper England side. Brings a much needed physicality and carrying threat, look at his try against Sarries
5. Geoff Parling - Lineout kingpin, and harder worker. Would like to perhaps see Launchberry take this shirt eventually when we could trust the lineout with someone like Attwood
6. Tom Wood - The best option here. No one can touch this man when he at his best
7. Chris Robshaw - The fearless leader. I would like to chuck Kvesic in, but he needs to merged into, much like Cane in the place of McCaw.
8. Ben Morgan - Much like Wood, at his best he's unplayable. Just needs to become a little more consistent.

9. Ben Youngs - Care is pushing very very hard. But again Youngs a bit more of an all round game and can be unplayable.
10. Owen Farrell - As long as plays like he was on the Lions I'd be happy. Kicks goals and puts us where we need to be on the park.
11. Marland Yarde - No one really can stop his rise at the minute. Evening playing in a lowly team of Irish's quality right now shows how good he is.
12. Billy Twelvetrees - Time to see what he can do without Manu. He can play, but would like to see some variation
13. Jonathon Joseph - Don't think he really deserves it yet, but there aren't many others to pick from. Don't want to put Lowe straight in. Was tempted with Eastmond but don't think he has played here.
14. Christian Wade - Electric no one comes close to the pace of this man with ball in hand.
15. Mike Brown - Might just lack the explosive pace, but does everything else so well. Foden slightly unlucky to miss out, but was tempted to have him on the wing.

16. Webber 17. Wilson 18. Mako 19. Launchberry 20. BillyV 21. Care 22. Burns 23. Foden

by Chjw131 Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:35 pm

Fluxy wrote:Just to add my two pence worth.

Fluxy wrote:

1. Corbs - Answers itself really, one of the best LHs around at the minute.
2. T Youngs - Not really anyone that has put their hand up so far. And I think this trio needs to form a tight bond as a unit.
3. Cole - Again top of the tree really. Wilson is pushing hard, but not quite there.
4. Dave Attwood - Think its time we tried him out in a proper England side. Brings a much needed physicality and carrying threat, look at his try against Sarries
5. Geoff Parling - Lineout kingpin, and harder worker. Would like to perhaps see Launchberry take this shirt eventually when we could trust the lineout with someone like Attwood
6. Tom Wood - The best option here. No one can touch this man when he at his best
7. Chris Robshaw - The fearless leader. I would like to chuck Kvesic in, but he needs to merged into, much like Cane in the place of McCaw.
8. Ben Morgan - Much like Wood, at his best he's unplayable. Just needs to become a little more consistent.

9. Ben Youngs - Care is pushing very very hard. But again Youngs a bit more of an all round game and can be unplayable.
10. Owen Farrell - As long as plays like he was on the Lions I'd be happy. Kicks goals and puts us where we need to be on the park.
11. Marland Yarde - No one really can stop his rise at the minute. Evening playing in a lowly team of Irish's quality right now shows how good he is.
12. Billy Twelvetrees - Time to see what he can do without Manu. He can play, but would like to see some variation
13. Jonathon Joseph - Don't think he really deserves it yet, but there aren't many others to pick from. Don't want to put Lowe straight in. Was tempted with Eastmond but don't think he has played here.
14. Christian Wade - Electric no one comes close to the pace of this man with ball in hand.
15. Mike Brown - Might just lack the explosive pace, but does everything else so well. Foden slightly unlucky to miss out, but was tempted to have him on the wing.

16. Webber 17. Wilson 18. Mako 19. Launchberry 20. BillyV 21. Care 22. Burns 23. Foden

Eastmond was playing a fair bit at 13 when Banners was at 12 for Bath last season. To be honest Eastmond has the raw talent to play in most positions but 12/13 I think he'll really shine out. My preference as an IC but has enough pace for OC.

by Fluxy Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:40 pm

My problem for Eastmond is that I'd want him with Manu, and not really with anyone else. There could be a slight defensive issue but I couldn't quite see a 36 Eastmond partnership working.

by Geordie Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:44 pm

Sorry for sounding like a broken down record but id love to see Eastmond at 9...imagine his playmaking and running ability from there...with Twelvetrees at 12...then Farrell sitting controlling everything...that would be a nice combo..

by Chjw131 Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry for sounding like a broken down record but id love to see Eastmond at 9...imagine his playmaking and running ability from there...with Twelvetrees at 12...then Farrell sitting controlling everything...that would be a nice combo..

Nothing wrong with re-iterating a good point GF. Think he would've make a great SH, my only reservation being the instinctive nature of that position and whether that can be learnt over just a few seasons. Frankly I don't know either way.

The other thing is we've got some reasonable depth at 9 whereas traditionally we've been short in the centres for a long while. I like his distribution from 12 and his feet are something else. Defensively I haven't seen him exposed yet, he packs a punch for a small lad.

by BamBam Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:01 pm

With Twelvetrees at 12, I think we can play Eastmond at 13 without worrying too much about his defending. 36 is a big old lump and very good defensively, Farrell is no slouch either so he has help around him. I've never seen him as a defensive weakness, yes he's a small chap but he is a good technical tackler and as long as we have hard working back row players , I think he'll be fine

In attack, we already know he is electric

by Fluxy Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:59 pm

My only bugbear with 36 at 12 and Eastmond 13 is that we'd need Burns at 10 if we are going with the current players. Obviously Farrell could play, but for me at this moment in time Faz and 36 would take the fizz out of any attacking play and thus bringing the defence onto Eastmond once he has the ball

by Chjw131 Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Fluxy wrote:My only bugbear with 36 at 12 and Eastmond 13 is that we'd need Burns at 10 if we are going with the current players. Obviously Farrell could play, but for me at this moment in time Faz and 36 would take the fizz out of any attacking play and thus bringing the defence onto Eastmond once he has the ball

A good point, my preference is for a club combination where possible in the backline. Burns would be my choice with 36 as a starting pair but I accept that Farrell is in posesion at the moment given his Lions experience. He does seem to look to be more expansive at times and as we've said before he has the perfect tutor at Sarries for that style in the superlative Charlie Hodgson.

by Fluxy Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:05 pm

I would like to think that the way Saracens are playing it may give Farrell more of chance an time to play. They are playing some physical stuff up front. If England could adapt a style like that it could benefit everyone.

by king_carlos Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:08 pm

BamBam wrote:With Twelvetrees at 12, I think we can play Eastmond at 13 without worrying too much about his defending. 36 is a big old lump and very good defensively, Farrell is no slouch either so he has help around him. I've never seen him as a defensive weakness, yes he's a small chap but he is a good technical tackler and as long as we have hard working back row players , I think he'll be fine

In attack, we already know he is electric

Twelvetrees is a very strong/physical guy in the tackle and also very good in the breakdown but can still get caught out at times defensively with his positioning. That said he'd still definitely be my pick at 12 even with all options fit and firing. Problems such as positioning can be sorted quickly with good coaching and game time.

At 13 I'd much rather see us play a quicker/nimbler player with good feet who is capable of getting the ball outwide than picking Burrell as a 'Manu substitute' until he is back. For too long we've been over reliant on crash ball as our only attacking option and if we want to progress as a side we need to move away from it.

9.Youngs
10.Farrell - His attacking game is progressing now and with a new centre partnership his defense should be vital
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Eastmond, Daly, Lowe, Trinder - wait for form to separate them
14.Wade
15.Brown

The above would be my thoughts. I know many will question Lowe and Daly but I rate them really highly. They both have bags of pace, quick feet and very good hands. They will also constantly look to get the ball wide and attack on the outside which I haven't seen an England side regularly do since we had Jason Robinson to throw the ball to on one wing!

The other thing I like about a 12.Twelvetrees 13.Daly partnership is that they both have a big kicking game and offer options when clearing from our own half. At current our kicking options tend to consist of the half backs which is easy to mark and predictable. Having two guys with a massive punt in the centres gives the defence and receivers more to think about, which should take pressure of the 9/10 axis leading to less aimless kicking. Or that's my theory anyway..... Whistle

by formerly known as Sam Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:33 pm

I'd like to see an Eastmond/Twelvetrees centre combo in the centre. Eastmond just has so much time on the ball and clever feet and hands. A real clever option at 12. Billy has pace and power so can run the Manu lines if required but can also whip out the passes to the wings. Twelvetrees has scored a hattrick from 13 for Tigers before now.

1. Corbsiero
2. T Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. Flood/Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Eastmond
13. Twelvetrees
14. Ashton
15. Brown (Goode might make this an interesting fight now he's fit again)

Subs - Vunipola, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Vunipola, Care, Farrell/Flood, Foden.

Can't beat a big set of ball carrying forwards coming off the bench to inflict maximum damage as the opposition tacklers tire. Starting team offers power, pace and tactical options in terms of kicking for territory. I would like to see Ford and Burns come in for the Argentina game but otherwise Farrell is the incumbent and Flood the most well rounded of the English flyhalfs.

by flankertye Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:02 am

So, just read a match report. Apparently Lee Dickson had a superb game for Saints this evening, can anyone confirm?

by Hood83 Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:10 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry for sounding like a broken down record but id love to see Eastmond at 9...imagine his playmaking and running ability from there...with Twelvetrees at 12...then Farrell sitting controlling everything...that would be a nice combo..

We lack ball-playing 12s, we definitely don't lack nippy, sniping, creative 9s - just ones that can pass very well. He'd just be another Simpson, very good but behind Care and probably Youngs. I think Eastmond at 9 would be a complete waste.

Have to say I'm closer to Triangulation's thoughts. Our team is OK, but we're bereft of outstanding individuals IMO. Those that could be world class (i.e. top 3 in the world in that position) are nowhere near there yet. In fact I'd say Corbs is possibly the only one, and that's pretty borderline. Cole when on form, but he isn't. Nor is Morgan.

I also see nothing in Lancaster that convinces me we'll kick on under him. And my concern is Rowntree found his level as a scrum coach - the whole 'shift it one' tactic for the forwards was practically all we had in the 6Ns, and used ad nauseum.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:50 am

Lee Dickson played very well. I'd still go Youngs and Care though.

by sirtidychris Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:33 am

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
Care
Farrell
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Joseph
Ashton
Foden

by yappysnap Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:15 pm

So having just watched the monstrous SA pack man-shame Oz, before switching off for a quick nap and then turning it back on too late to get the tbp. I think the whole EPS will join with me in thanking the RFU for NOT choosing South Africa as one of the teams we face this autumn!! Very Happy

by Geordie Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Farrell showed more break making skills again in the Quins game...Sarries have changed their style slightly and it has benefitted Owen. It is pleasing to see.

Burrell again had a good game for Saints. He is an option.

by ChequeredJersey Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:18 pm

As I know we aren't doing that hotly, can I just highlight to everyone that Mike Brown has been one of the best players on the pitch (even in the matches we lost or were poor in) in every match this season...

by Sponsored content