Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

ChequeredJersey wrote:As I know we aren't doing that hotly, can I just highlight to everyone that Mike Brown has been one of the best players on the pitch (even in the matches we lost or were poor in) in every match this season...

+1

But feel free to let Quins keep him, Marler and Robshaw...

I do wonder if Brown does fall into that category of outstanding league player and so so international. I do appreciate he probably ran more with the ball than any other England player in the last 6N (and out of position). His ability to stay on his feet is truly remarkable- but I am not sure how much of all that work actually led to scores or scoring chances.

As for the wings I agree with Yarde being a shoe in but I am surprised with the lack of talk about Wade.

I think in relation to wingers and fullbacks it can be difficult to assess how they might go for England when they do not see a lot of ball for their clubs.

The question that vexes me is this : do we pick a pack of forwards to play how we want to play the game or to counter/ take advantage of the opposition??

For SA for example were almost forced into an arms race just to stay alive we have to pick monster pack.

Do we pick that same pack vs Oz to try to batter them? Or do we pick Kvesic at 7 to counter their 7 etc?

It vexes me so please someone give us some simple answer to this one.

Yes we should pick horses for courses to a degree. However I still do not buy that a) this Australia team specialise at the breakdown or b) Kvesic is the best "jackal" we have right now (well, I suppose Fraser is injured...). We need to counter other teams strengths to a degree but more focus should be placed on utilising our own (or finding them) and focusing on their weaknesses and how to exploit them

Triangulation surely you want to tinker the team to suit the situation?

Also we have to work out how we want to play - I think England should look to be emulate Tigers,Sarries and Saints of this season and even possibly Bath.

That means a big pack - strong set piece but also a lot of power, a controlling fly half, strong centres and wingers who can finish.

Good defence is also important.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes we should pick horses for courses to a degree. However I still do not buy that a) this Australia team specialise at the breakdown or b) Kvesic is the best "jackal" we have right now (well, I suppose Fraser is injured...). We need to counter other teams strengths to a degree but more focus should be placed on utilising our own (or finding them) and focusing on their weaknesses and how to exploit them

Yes , agreed. However we do need to respond to the physical hammering we took from SA and Wales.

This is why many call for Attwood over Launchbury to partner Parling i think.

The devil is in the detail.

I do think we have worried too much about opposition sides in the past and this is exacerbated by large playing reserves to pick from.

Doubt the ABs worry about what their opponents are going to do or not do.

Triangulation it's obvious we need a bigger pack and guys who can get over the gainline.

England physically overpowered Scotland and NZ.

The power game is England's style.

Powerful pack, solid at worst set piece, balanced backrow, efficient backs with clinical wings and a couple of individual attacking threats, halfbacks who work well together and won't miss points.

Rugby's not all that complex, the above formula will always be effective if other tricks don't work

Chequeredjersey very true.

It's a formula we seem to have had difficulty with.

Especially with the balanced backrow and set piece in my opinion.

I never think of England having a particularly reliable lineout. Whereas the likes of Leicester and Sarries do.

lostinwales wrote:
....
As for the wings I agree with Yarde being a shoe in but I am surprised with the lack of talk about Wade.

Wasps have started slowly this season & Wade has 'only' scored 2 trys so far. I really hope he gets a start in the Autumn Internationals as he has been one of the the most consistent try scorers in the past 3 seasons.

39 appearances and 29 tries and many of those tries only he could have scored.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

lostinwales wrote:
....
As for the wings I agree with Yarde being a shoe in but I am surprised with the lack of talk about Wade.

Wasps have started slowly this season & Wade has 'only' scored 2 trys so far. I really hope he gets a start in the Autumn Internationals as he has been one of the the most consistent try scorers in the past 3 seasons.

39 appearances and 29 tries and  many of those tries only he could have scored.

I hope Wade gets the chance. With a slightly bigger pack (thinking Webber, Wilson and Attwood added to the mix) we should get more good ball and the way Farrell has started we shouldn't be kicking too much away hopefully. Having said that Ashton has started the season on fire so I expect Wade will have to make the very most of his opportunities when they come along.

Kvesic is the best "jackal" we have right now (well, I suppose Fraser is injured...).

CJ, i think its still Robshaw by quite a way. People dont rate him doing the actual 7 job of making turnovers...but he is actually VERY good at that, as a Quins fan you will know.

I do wonder if Brown does fall into that category of outstanding league player and so so international.

On what evidence? He has been stuck out on the wing...and still managed to make impressive breaks, rucked, tackled (generally very well). He is an outstanding player...and deserves a run out over Goode. Brown or Foden for me...why not give Brown a chance in the AI's.

Unless foden is back to his very best, then Mike Brown has to have a run at full-back. His performances out of position last season, indicate he could be very effective. Plus he brings a certain amount of feistiness.

I used to think Brown was just a club player - a Tony Swift type - but he has impressed me when he's been played in his preferred position. I'm not as sold on Goode, I reckon Delon Armitage is still better, though I doubt he'll ever be in an England shirt again. Foden is a classy operator when in form but I wonder if he's back there yet. Both he and Ben Youngs strike me as players who haven't fulfilled their early potential.

Having had his 24th birthday earlier this week, Youngs still has time to deliver on the early promise.

We haven't got the cattle lads.

There are guys who perform well at AP level but then they step up to international level and they struggle.

A truly world class player (defined by me to be top 3 players in that position in the world) would be absolutely destroying opponents at AP level.

Who is doing that consistently?

That is your answer lads. That is your answer.

We're going down (again) this AI but worse than last year.

Triangulation wrote:We haven't got the cattle lads.

There are guys who perform well at AP level but then they step up to international level and they struggle.

A truly world class player (defined by me to be top 3 players in that position in the world) would be absolutely destroying opponents at AP level.

Who is doing that consistently?

That is your answer lads. That is your answer.

We're going down (again) this AI but worse than last year.

That's absolute male cow turd. I don't think a single member of a World XV consistently destroys opponents at Club level. Not Carter. Not Genia. Not Dagg (all received specific criticism this season for this very fact). The only players who dominate consistently at lower levels are those who haven't been playing there long enough to have their dip in form. The thing that really stands out about All Blacks and Boks and the best players in the world is not that they dominate every day at Club level but that they actually step up their game under pressure in the dozen or so INT matches each year, often despite lack of gametime or poor Club form. That doesn't mean selection should not occur on form, especially when we have not yet established those kinds of players, but Dagg and Nonu look 1000x better in Black than for their Clubs

I've said it before I would be seriously disappointed not to win the games against Aus and Argentina. I think we should really be expecting to win those games imo. We should also be looking to give NZ a damn good run for their money. Imagine if we could turn them over again; would be a massive boost (and 1 that I'm not expecting!).

Agree with Chequeredjersey.

For example even the deity George North hasn't exactly been tearing up the AP with only 1 try in 4 matches.

LondonTiger wrote:Having had his 24th birthday earlier this week, Youngs still has time to deliver on the early promise.

I just wish our new blood kicked on rather more regularly. When we we beat Australia twice under Johnson, players such as Youngs, Lawes, Armitage, Foden and Ashton looked good for the future. The likes of Flood, Haskell and Croft seemed to enjoy playing with them.

For a variety of reasons, since that blow-out to Ireland and subsequent underwhelming World Cup, none of them have gone from strength to strength.

I tend to disagree with Triangulation here. I think we do have the cattle but think our ability to bring players on at international level has been spotty at best for nigh on ten years now.

Yes i forgot to add....(although i did earlier in the thread)...that we dont have the coaches either. And i suppose that as i said before out club coaches play an attritional style that does encourgage injury and perhaps stiffles young back line talent in particular.

The cream will always rise to the top. North will score a hatfull once he is bedded in at his new club.

p.s

I said AP level !!

Carter Genia Dagg would carve up the AP

They're presumably being criticised for poor Supers form?

Not the same thing.

Triangulation wrote:Yes i forgot to add....(although i did earlier in the thread)...that we dont have the coaches either. And i suppose that as i said before out club coaches play an attritional style that does encourgage injury and perhaps stiffles young back line talent in particular.

The cream will always rise to the top. North will score a hatfull once he is bedded in at his new club.

And then he will have other matches and periods where he doesn't. Like every World Class Player

Triangulation wrote:p.s

I said AP level !!

Carter Genia Dagg would carve up the AP

They're presumably being criticised for poor Supers form?

Not the same thing.  

Ah, so we've never had a World Class player in the Premiership? And the best Welsh players carve up the RABO do they, every game? I call absolutely Bull Poopie

Triangulation wrote:
The cream will always rise to the top. North will score a hatfull once he is bedded in at his new club.

He may well do, as Saints are a strong side, but he was never a particularly prolific scorer for Scarlets (much more prolific for Wales mind).


Put world class players in an average team and they tend not to perform especially well. (Ok I know he was injured fairly earlybu...) Dan Carter did not look anything special for Perpignan.

Ok lads getting sidetracked here.

Who are our World Class Players?

That is the main issue here.

By the way I do think North is a very good winger. It's just he's not exactly been performing that much better than the likes of Ashton,Yarde,Wade and Strettle. Scored less tries than the four of them.

Perhaps North will improve his try scoring record in the AP but as of yet he's not been tearing down trees.

I would say Youngs and Care are as good as Genia so if they're carving up the AP then sure, so would Genia.
The AP isn't the top level of rugby in England, its the HC (or at least currently)... look at the premiership as the Currie & ITM cups.

For England I'd say truly world class.... Corbisiero, T Youngs, Tuilagi, Foden.

then you have a heap of players such as T Youngs, D Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw on the cusp.

Is that bad that England don't have as many world class players at the moment then before?

Well its not good but its not dire.

Have a look at the boks current side.

Beast -   good but not world class.
Bismarck - the best. World class.
Jannie good but not world class
Etzebeth - world class
Flip - good but not world class
Alberts - good but not world class
Louw - world class
Vermuelen - on the cusp but not quite.
Du Preez - had his day.
Steyn - had his day.
Habana - still world class
JDV - had his day.
Engelbrecht - potential but not close.
Le Roux - potentially very good. Not yet.
Kirchner - Never has been, never will be.

So out of the boks ranked 2nd in the world I would say

Bismarck, Etzebeth, Louw and Habana are world class... guys like Vermuelen, JDV and Alberts are close but the rest quite a margin off.

Ok all valid points lads but this is a thread about England's side for the AIs -  my original post on all this stands.

We don't have good enough players whether they be "world class" or not , we're not coached well enough, injuries will further mount in large part due to the attritional style of our AP, our basic skill levels are not good enough, we are not inherrently rugby smart and we will get a canning in the AIs.

3-0 to the southerners

And when it happens you can thank me for pointing it all out to you now because hopefully you wont have got carried away with AP form and the media bigging players or teams up.

Hopefully when it happens you will have had realistic expectations from the outset and so wont lose your poopie.

That is all i was trying to convey.

OK, your opinion has been noted. Personally I think it'll be 2-1 to us

Ok Chequered i have given my reasons.

What pray tell are yours?

Which of the two opponents do you say well beat and why?

No disrespect to them but im guessing you're saying

Las Pumas ; and
Wallabies

Remember were already going in with a new midfield (something that the Kiwis and Aussies will exploit when they're attacking us)

Some people are never happy.

2nd place in 6N last 2 years, 3rd ranked in the world. 10 months ago match vs. boks, lost by 1 point. Match vs. NZ, won by 17.

England look a decent side.

Should win 2/3 and 3rd should be close.

fa0019 wrote:I would say Youngs and Care are as good as Genia so if they're carving up the AP then sure, so would Genia.
The AP isn't the top level of rugby in England, its the HC (or at least currently)... look at the premiership as the Currie & ITM cups.

For England I'd say truly world class.... Corbisiero, T Youngs, Tuilagi, Foden.

then you have a heap of players such as T Youngs, D Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw on the cusp.

Is that bad that England don't have as many world class players at the moment then before?

Well its not good but its not dire.

Have a look at the boks current side.

Beast -   good but not world class.
Bismarck - the best. World class.
Jannie good but not world class
Etzebeth - world class
Flip - good but not world class
Alberts - good but not world class
Louw - world class
Vermuelen - on the cusp but not quite.
Du Preez - had his day.
Steyn - had his day.
Habana - still world class
JDV - had his day.
Engelbrecht - potential but not close.
Le Roux - potentially very good. Not yet.
Kirchner - Never has been, never will be.

So out of the boks ranked 2nd in the world I would say

Bismarck, Etzebeth, Louw and Habana are world class... guys like Vermuelen, JDV and Alberts are close but the rest quite a margin off.

This is a nice comparison fa. The concept of 'world class' is so often bandied about but we can only objectively judge a player so far. The rest is often very subjective and the impact that being in a winning team has upon people's perception of players being world class is huge.

When we turned over NZ last year and were 4/5 in the 6N a lot of people were muting huge proportions of the England team to make up the Lions tour. Even allowing for the 'overhype' guys like Wood, Robshaw, Launchbury were supposedly nailed on. One very bad performance against a quality team later, and all of a sudden England were stranded in the doldrums and we were back to 2006/7 again.

We all know rugby is a team game. Brodie Retallack put in a world class locking performance against SA for the All Balcks. I wouldn't before have described him as world class and he didn't seem to be so on the previous AI tour. Does that make him world class, not in my book. At least not yet.

What I mean by World Class is someone who is a game-changer. Who's poerformance surpasses others regularly. On that basis the only game changers I see currently in the England set-up are: Alex Corbisiero, Ben Youngs and possibly Ben Foden. Are they actually world class yet, no not in my book because they haven't been able to demonstrate it regularly enough for England for a variety of reasons. Tuilagi could be another but again not attained yet.

There are no world class players in this England team as it stands. The main reason being a lack of experience and opportunity to regularly test that potential.

Wallabies and Argentina, based on their recent form, the way a scratch Lions blew Australia away and just how much they have struggled against any kind of set piece under the new rules. Unless something changes against the ABs in their last match, they are at the lowest point in terms of morale that I have ever seen them, and to my knowledge their best forwards are not set to be back from injury. Their best backs are either completely out of form (Genia), uncertain at this level as they haven't played yet (Speight), struggling with their current position (Folau) or turfed out on their arse (JOC). They have many parts of a really good side (except in the tight 5), but I can't see them getting it together in time. Plus Corbs is placed to destroy their tight heads, and they have struggled if a scrum is allowed to get over them like that.

Argentina have looked weaker than they did a couple of years ago, frankly, and show no depth at all. I will be bitterly disappointed if we lose both of those matches

can't see how Argentina would beat England given the England 2nd XV smashed the Argentinian 2nd XV 50 nil or whatever.

England should expect to beat Australia in the AIs provided the scrum is ref'd properly. I would expect England's set piece to be superior, and Farrell to nail his kicks.

Australia's backs will always have plenty talent, but Lancaster has a bunch of pretty decent options himself, even considering the injury situation.

England should be confident.

If you can't be confident against a team that struggled to beat ARG at home by more than 1 point you shouldn't be confident of beating anyone in the top 12. AUS are in a serious lull and there is nothing to show that they are set to end that soon. Until higginbottom and pocock return they will lose to anyone in the top 8.

fa0019 wrote:If you can't be confident against a team that struggled to beat ARG at home by more than 1 point you shouldn't be confident of beating anyone in the top 12. AUS are in a serious lull and there is nothing to show that they are set to end that soon. Until higginbottom and pocock return they will lose to anyone in the top 8.

 

Also, they have a ridiculously stupid schedule for the Tour

Argentina v Australia Estadio Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario Sun 6 Oct 9:10
Third and Final Bledisloe Cup Test
New Zealand v Australia Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin Sat 19 Oct 17:35




2013 Spring Tour
Match Venue Kick Off (LOCAL)

Australia v England

Twickenham Stadium, London


Sat 2 Nov 2:30pm

Australia v Italy

Stadio Olimpico, Turin


Sat 9 Nov 3:00pm

Australia v Ireland

Aviva Stadium, Dublin


Sat 16 Nov 5:45pm

Australia v Scotland

Murrayfield, Edinburgh


Sat 23 Nov 6:00pm

Australia v Wales

Millenium Stadium, Cardiff


Sat 30 Nov 5:00pm



They will probably be heading to us after a heavy-ish loss to the ABs, not long after it at all, and then they play Wales at the end of a grueling tour. Crazy

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:If you can't be confident against a team that struggled to beat ARG at home by more than 1 point you shouldn't be confident of beating anyone in the top 12. AUS are in a serious lull and there is nothing to show that they are set to end that soon. Until higginbottom and pocock return they will lose to anyone in the top 8.

 

I fancy ARG to beat them at home this weekend.... and they're 10th. Given the way we played vs. SA I certainly think we have a chance at home... late Nov in Edinburgh... could be gale force home ambush we've been waiting for and AUS have been dreading! We live in hope Exile!!!

CJ

Scotland are playing 23rd vs. AUS
Wales 30th.

Yep, that's what my copied post is meant to reveal but the format has transferred awfully, sorry. Scotland could take them. They COULD (I doubt they will) lose every AI game

I agree - Scott Johnson will certainly be targeting this one, particularly given the silly schedule Australia are on (particularly given their Lions exertions).

On a cold wet and windy day at Murrayfield in November, after facing England, Italy and Ireland in quick succession, I doubt Australia will be looking forward particularly to facing a Scotland front five comprising Murray, Ford, Grant, Hamilton and Gray - and then facing Jones, Hibbard, Jenkins, AWJ and Evans the following week.....

Actually, if Ireland have Ross fit, the poor Aus front 5 will be dreading the next few weeks-

In quick succession they could face

(just after several matches with the considerable Argentine and Bok packs)

Woodcock, Hore, Franks, Rettalick, Whitelock
Corbisiero, Hartley, Wilson/Cole, Attwood, Parling
Di Marchi, Ghiraldhini, Castrogiovanni, Bortolami, Bernabo
Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Tuohy
Grant, Ford, Murray, Hamilton, Gray
James, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, Evans

fun

fa0019 wrote:I would say Youngs and Care are as good as Genia so if they're carving up the AP then sure, so would Genia.
The AP isn't the top level of rugby in England, its the HC (or at least currently)... look at the premiership as the Currie & ITM cups.

For England I'd say truly world class.... Corbisiero, T Youngs, Tuilagi, Foden.

then you have a heap of players such as T Youngs, D Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw on the cusp.

Is that bad that England don't have as many world class players at the moment then before?

Well its not good but its not dire.

Have a look at the boks current side.

Beast -   good but not world class.
Bismarck - the best. World class.
Jannie good but not world class
Etzebeth - world class
Flip - good but not world class
Alberts - good but not world class
Louw - world class
Vermuelen - on the cusp but not quite.
Du Preez - had his day.
Steyn - had his day.
Habana - still world class
JDV - had his day.
Engelbrecht - potential but not close.
Le Roux - potentially very good. Not yet.
Kirchner - Never has been, never will be.

So out of the boks ranked 2nd in the world I would say

Bismarck, Etzebeth, Louw and Habana are world class... guys like Vermuelen, JDV and Alberts are close but the rest quite a margin off.

I think the difference is that where the Boks don't have a player is world class, he still adds a very specific skill to the team - someone like Alberts, who I personally think is near world class if not, does at least bring something different to that pack - carrying and brutal defence. Not sure the same can be said of England players bar T Youngs, who I'd say isn't world class but brings world class rucking, something few of our forwards do.

Also, line up the England team against that Bok team and we come off second best in a fair few places.

Totally agree Hood.

Tom Youngs isnt World class but does bring things to the table.

At least we will rely on Aus finding a way to beat Wales by a point

Reality Check guys.

Come the AIs England will be mired in more injury carnage which will hamper us. We dont trouble anyone much with our attack.


The Australians already know that we will have a makeshift midfield and will devise ploys and plans to exploit the obvious lack of understanding that we will have in midfield defence. (NB is there a case here for Burns, 36 and Trinder??)

There is no better side in world rugby at spotting and exploiting defensive weakness. They are brilliant analysts and can do it on the hoof also.

Much has been made of the aussies woes but they are rat cunning. They will find a way to con refs or fix their issues at the scrum. Refs are losing their nerve re the new scrum laws.

The aussies will milk penalties at scrums and breakdowns, they'll find a way to win.

They will have targetted England as were in the same group at the RWC and as theyre in search of redemption under a new coach will not lack for motivation.

We have no backs of the calibre of Folau or Genia.

Wallabies by 1-8 points

Las Pumas will negate our game at source with their excellent pack and make it a slug and kick fest. They are not to be underestimated and will be buoyed by some good highly competitive performances in the RC.

Las Pumas by 1-8

The All Blacks are just better than us 1-15 and are coming with high confidence and revenge on their minds.


At our best we will play like a poor man's Boks side (lacking some of their grunt at forward) and they know how to beat them.

ABs by 10-15

So come on chaps please wake up and smell the biscuits.

If anything AUS have got worse under McKenzie... Deans stock is rising every day.