Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

He's kept the shirt through indiffernet form because no one else was in any sort of form. Flood is very hit and miss for England imo. With his age and experience he should be having much more influence on games but he doesn't. Burns was injured prior to the 6Ns so didn't challenge.

Farrell must be the most underrated player by fans.

I agree Farrell didn't really show much threat in attack but that's never been a strength of his. He's improving on it.

And thats my point...should such a player be starting 10 for England. Anyway...we'll leave it there...it looks like it may be a chance/project that is going to pay off.

The problems start with the forwards

I do agree with you 100% there, and this is another area i have been hugely critical of. We have had absolutely zero substantial carrying from the pack except for utter reliance on pretty much one player Morgan...and when he's out the whole team ground to a halt.

With out players crashing through committing defenders we could have Dan Carter there and he would not make an impression.

no 7 & 1/2 I think Farrell is actually both overrated and underrated depending on who the person is talking about him.

His game management and decision making still needs work. As Geordiefalcon says occasionally Farrell does kick aimlessly.

On the other hand his place kicking is in general very very good. He does have off days with the boot like vs Wales but they are quite rare.

Defensively he's pretty solid and abrasive.

He also throws his body around with gusto - if you look at the highlights of the game vs Scotland look out for him charging into Gray to get the ball released which allowed England the quick ball to score.

His attacking game needs work but there have been signs that it's improving - e.g. the Lions tour, the Scotland game - his pass to Parling for example and this season - against Quins he set up the only try.

From what I have heard Farrell really does want does want to become more attacking and less restrictive but the respective gameplans of Sarries and England have shackled this to some extent.

When you look at what's he done so far for the 22 year old it's not bad - Lion,AP title and 16 England caps.

I think we're pretty lucky to have Farrell and Burns as options anyway. I would be happy with either to start the AIs.

Geordiefalcon surely players need development for the RWC? You think it would have been beneficial for England for example to call up someone like Myler,Lamb or Cipriani instead? No of course not.

That's my point about the forwards.

Hood makes good points about bringing in more abrasive players like Attwood and Billy Vunipola. Unfortunately with Billy he's just a replacement for Morgan.

No 7 1&2 I agree with that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I agree Farrell didn't really show much threat in attack but that's never been a strength of his. He's improving on it.

And thats my point...should such a player be starting 10 for England. Anyway...we'll leave it there...it looks like it may be a chance/project that is going to pay off.

The problems start with the forwards

I do agree with you 100% there, and this is another area i have been hugely critical of. We have had absolutely zero substantial carrying from the pack except for utter reliance on pretty much one player Morgan...and when he's out the whole team ground to a halt.

With out players crashing through committing defenders we could have Dan Carter there and he would not make an impression.

I think that's a bit harsh on Launchbury, he carried well during the 6Ns I thought. Many are calling for Attwood to solve this problem as well, but I think Youngs T and Corbs are both good carriers around the park and should make a big difference.

Has Youngs got to grips with the new scrums yet Bathite? The few I've seen he was struggling a bit. Think this may well propel Webber or Hartley above him although Youngs would still make the bench.

Bathite if that's the case why has the England pack looked quite ineffective with ball in hand without Morgan.

Both England's best performances last season by some margin had Morgan at 8 - NZ and Scotland.

Strangely enough we didn't miss Manu vs Scotland even though he's seen as a key player of the England squad.

Geordiefalcon surely players need development for the RWC? You think it would have been beneficial for England for example to call up someone like Myler,Lamb or Cipriani instead? No of course not.

Again, im not utterly daft. I wanted to see youngsters coming in and progressing getting rid of the old guard. But its not just about age. I dont care if they are 40 or 16...if they are playing for England i want to see certain aspects to their game.

Farrell has shown much, but for a 10 at international level showed a lot of weaknesses aswell. He's working on them and i do believe he wants to improve and indeed IS improving. I wouldnt want to see Myler, lamb or Cipriani there...and i have never said i would so please dont put those words in my mouth.

Im not just having a go for the sake of it BS. For example Ive defended Ashton alot...as i believe an on form Ashton is a huge weapon for us.

Likewise i have been critical of Tom Croft. I dont see him as a real deal 6...many disagree with me. Though i respect certain aspects of his game is excellent.

beshocked wrote:Bathite if that's the case why has the England pack looked quite ineffective with ball in hand without Morgan.

Both England's best performances last season by some margin had Morgan at 8 - NZ and Scotland.

Strangely enough we didn't miss Manu vs Scotland even though he's seen as a key player of the England squad.

I've said that Attwood might solve the problem. I'm acknowledging the problem and suggesting that him and also Corbs addition will help.

Youngs might not have the scrummaging nailed down, but he is an immense carrier, maybe Webber is the best comprimise of both?

Bathite,

Launchbury has a lot to his game, but im not convinced that carrying is a real strength of his. Tom Youngs has carried well i agree, but again not sure Corbs is a big yard maker.

Most top international sides have 2/3/4 guys who can make heavy yards through the oppositon...and that is a BIG factor that i believe we are missing.

Geordiefalcon my point is at the time Farrell was picked by England there was hardly a huge amount of 10s putting their hands up.

There was Flood who got injured, Charlie Hodgson and perhaps Burns that's it surely?

The fly half battle is looking a lot healthier now with Farrell,Burns,Flood and potentially Ford. Could have been even more competitive if McHeathcote believed he was up to the challenge of the England 10 shirt.

Bathite I hope you are right but then how do you keep the pack stronger without weakening the lineout?

I hope you are right - how would you rate Webber's throwing? I haven't been too impressed with any of the hookers' throwing for England.

Webber's throwing is I would say the weakest part of his game. Not awful, but certainly not as good as Mears used to be. I think Hartley is actually the best all round English hooker, despite his rep.

I agree with the points about carriers, it seems as if we have 2, Manu and Morgan. Youngs is effective too, but for me, one of the second rows needs to be someone who can make yards from a standing start and I'm not convinced that Parling, Launchberry or Lawes offer that brute strength. Very athletic yes but if another pack gains dominance as Wales did last year, its hard to see them fighting their way back into it.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

it seems as if we have 2, Manu and Morgan.

Well Manu is out and the only thing Morgan is carrying at the moment is far too much wieght, it seems we have found englands answer to fatty weepu, awesome about mid way through the season when he has shed his holiday lorry tyre. Ball carriers are billy vunipola to start and smash some big holes and mako vunipola off the bench. Tom youngs is a lttle demon as well although South africa and new zealand will be the real test to see if his size limits him against the biggest and the best, personally despite being a tool bag hartley is the best all round hooker and i'd have T Youngs, M vunipola, lawes, Burns, Eastmond, Kvesic off the bench to tear things up in the last 20 when our big pack has worn the enemy down a bit. Also its a bit early for Burrell but he is a beast and seems to be learning to pass as well, he has the possibility to punch some big holes ala jamie roberts.

Hartley appears to have started the season on fire aswell...i agree his set piece skill set is probably the best of the English hookers. But Tom Youngs has done exceptionally well all over the park.
I think the hooker battle is a close run thing at the moment...Tom Youngs, Hartley, Webber...even Tom Lindsay all have various strengths and weaknesses. Jamie George looked good in his few games this season.

I think Parling and Attwood will start the AI's. Parling is not a brute...but is athletic and is good at running in to space, so he does make yards. Attwood balances that with brute force close in.

Back row. Neither Wood nor Robshaw who will start the flanks are great carriers...so our 8 MUST be a bulldozer. That means Morgan or Billy...simple as.

In the backs...Twelvetrees has some size about him...but not the oomph i believe on his own that Manu has. Maybe Burrell can offer that? Yarde isnt huge but is a solid prospect hitting the line at pace...Failing that Banahan...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hartley appears to have started the season on fire aswell...i agree his set piece skill set is probably the best of the English hookers. But Tom Youngs has done exceptionally well all over the park.
I think the hooker battle is a close run thing at the moment...Tom Youngs, Hartley, Webber...even Tom Lindsay all have various strengths and weaknesses. Jamie George looked good in his few games this season.

I think Parling and Attwood will start the AI's. Parling is not a brute...but is athletic and is good at running in to space, so he does make yards. Attwood balances that with brute force close in.

Back row. Neither Wood nor Robshaw who will start the flanks are great carriers...so our 8 MUST be a bulldozer. That means Morgan or Billy...simple as.

In the backs...Twelvetrees has some size about him...but not the oomph i believe on his own that Manu has. Maybe Burrell can offer that? Yarde isnt huge but is a solid prospect hitting the line at pace...Failing that Banahan...

Who does? I don't think not measuring up to Manu in that respect is a sin, and 36 at least has lots of other things to offer.

I was merely commenting on his impact in actual carrying ability as the discussion was about...not other skills which i agree Twelvetrees has lots more to offer than Manu.

A few people are marking out Attwood to be the carrying saviour of our second row.  I rate Attwood and want him in the side, but there seems to be confusion by some on here over what he really offers compared to what they expect him to from his appearance.  There's plenty he will bring to the England side that we need, but lets not herald him as a carrier and then criticise him when he doesn't produce that to the degree people have built him up.

If for instance we compare him to Launchbury who is being dismissed by many in terms of carrying.  Last Premiership season Attwood made 208m from 97 carries in 21 matches, Launchbury made 235m from 88 carries in 13 matches.

Continuing that comparison for this season, this is how they're currently performing:


Attwood/Launchbury

Tries 1/1
Passes 1/13
Carries 16/20
Metres Carried 17/50
Clean Breaks 0/1
Defenders Beaten 1/1
Offloads 0/9
Turnovers Conceded 4/1
Penalties Conceded 2/3
Tackles 22/53
Tackles Missed 3/4
Lineouts Taken 13/14
Lineouts Stolen 1/0

Yards carried is often a misleading stat though. I think Launchbury is a good carrier, in the second channels, much like Gray for the Scots, he does well with a bit of space. Attwood on the other hand is the one making the hard yards, much like POC would. For what it's worth, I rate both players and don't think Attwood should be starting for England, but I'm always very weary of stats, especially the yards carried and defenders beaten and missed tackles

Lets go for Launchbury and Attwood in the Ai's then  

Mbernz where did you get those stats?

Would be interesting if you could compare Morgan to Billy.

Bathite sometimes with you I think you don't like stats because they don't support your view point.

You do have to consider that stats can be misleading. Silly example could be a player makes a tackle and is forced back 10 metres and his team are very much on the back front compared to someone who drives their opposite number back ten yards and into touch. Both made 1 tackle, which was better? You really need to see and consider the games for the stats to make sense.

Bathite wrote:Yards carried is often a misleading stat though. I think Launchbury is a good carrier, in the second channels, much like Gray for the Scots, he does well with a bit of space. Attwood on the other hand is the one making the hard yards, much like POC would. For what it's worth, I rate both players and don't think Attwood should be starting for England, but I'm always very weary of stats, especially the yards carried and defenders beaten and missed tackles

I don't buy that Launchbury isn't having to make as many hard yards as Attwood, when I've seen him play for Wasps he's done a lot of that, and from MBernz numbers from last season you can see how often he puts himself into the fray, averaging twice as many carries per match. That's the workload of a first up carrier in tight phases.

The other interesting thing is how much more Launchbury passes and offloads whilst still making his carrying gains. Teams like SA & NZ can deal with pretty much any physical carrier, the difference in being truly competitve against them is players who keep the ball alive and allow continuing fast ball, not just make their hard yards and go to ground allowing time for the opposition to keep their defence organised or compete at the breakdown.

Stats like meters carried are interesting but can be a little skewed. At the end of last season someone showed the same stats for the EQ locks looking to go to argentina. Slater was nicely ahead in meters carried, but then 50 of those came from 1 break from the halfway line. So take with a pinch of salt!

Personally I think a Parling/Launchberry/Attwood combo for the match day squad would give a nice balance and enable a little bit of horses for courses.

beshocked wrote:Mbernz where did you get those stats?

Would be interesting if you could compare Morgan to Billy.

Bathite sometimes with you I think you don't like stats because they don't support your view point.

I don't like stats because they can be misinterpreted. I've already said I don't think Attwood should start for England and the stats back that up, so once again, you're talking tripe

No 7&1/2 wrote:You do have to consider that stats can be misleading. Silly example could be a player makes a tackle and is forced back 10 metres and his team are very much on the back front compared to someone who drives their opposite number back ten yards and into touch. Both made 1 tackle, which was better? You really need to see and consider the games for the stats to make sense.

My point exactly! Thanks for backing me up. I'll always rate a player on watching them play and look at stats with interest afterwards. It will always be that way round for me - stats will not make me decide whether I rate someone, perhaps with some exceptions like place kicking - but that's a moot point, as it's blinking obvious that Farrell is an awesome place kicker and Ford / Burns have work to do

So do most people think it'll be Parling and launchbury?

I think it'll be...

1 Corbs
2 Youngs (Lion despite Hartleys impressive start to the season)
3 Cole
4 Parling
5 ? cant decide if lancs will go Attwood or Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

I'd go for Parling and Launchbury, definitely. Think Attwood makes a nice bench option, as we then have three slightly different options and he can be the back up lineout caller. Personally, I think Garvey should be in the mix ahead of Attwood, but you'll all just think I'm being uber Bath bias, despite how brilliant he was last year as well.

I'd go

Corbs-Youngs-Cole
Parling-Launch
Wood-Morgan-Robshaw

Mako
Webber
Wilson
Attwood
Billy V

That would ruin the Bath season though, so I don't mind if it is different. Good options on the bench, Billy V covers 6 and 8, Robshaw and Wood can move to 6 or 7

Has the captain been decided yet? I might have missed the announcement, but saw a lot of chat about Wood replacing Robshaw, which would be harsh I think

Bathite wrote:Has the captain been decided yet? I might have missed the announcement, but saw a lot of chat about Wood replacing Robshaw, which would be harsh I think

I think it's still "sources claim" that Wood will be captain rather than anything concrete.

I've not seen enough of Leicester to know how Cole has been going with the new scrum interpretations, but I do think from what I have seen of Wilson, that the Bath man has a decent claim to a starting jersey at some point over the AI's.

Has Wilson been properly challenged by one of the better packs yet though? Mollipola isn't really a big test, he's having a torrid time. Looking at how Ayerza scrummaged against NZ the other week, that looks like the big test. Cole's been there and done that, whilst Wilson has been good, i'm not sure he's done enough yet. Let's see him up against Sarries (without Gary Gold playing silly b uggers) or Ayerza or Marler or Mullan.

He can only do well against what is put in front of him, and from what I have seen he has done that. So far this season we have been going well in the scrum (shame our lineout has been shocking), but from what I saw on Saturday Wilson gave Parr a torrid time. Parr has looked good so far up against Matt Stevens, Euan Murray and Hoani Tui, all of whom are top operators.

I see your points, but I'd personally stick still with Cole.

Surely the AI's in part are about building depth going towards RWC2015. For that reason alone I would definitely have Wilson start at least 1 game.

Personally, I think Garvey should be in the mix ahead of Attwood, but you'll all just think I'm being uber Bath bias, despite how brilliant he was last year as well

Mate ive been calling for Garvey for several years. He's got that genuine bulk we might be missing....But whilst Lancs is there...he aint got a hope.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Surely the AI's in part are about building depth going towards RWC2015.  For that reason alone I would definitely have Wilson start at least 1 game.

Yeah, it's a fair shout, as there's not much coming through after Wilson either. Thomas is a long way from an England shirt. It's a shame that we've got 3 strong challengers at LH, but not much at TH. Maybe give Wilson a start against the Aussies?

Surely the AI's in part are about building depth going towards RWC2015. For that reason alone I would definitely have Wilson start at least 1 game..

But Ozzy, surely there comes a time when the "develpment and depth building " comes second to actually focusing on the first team. We are two years out from the WC (not actually that many games), and i believe the time has come to stop messing about and get this team moving forward. Lets get them used to playing together...get the attack working etc.

Players will get chances through injuries...

EDIT - i may be getting the wrong idea here...if your talking about more kids coming in...then i say no...but if your talking about the two front runners say Cole and Wilson starting games...then ok im with you and agree. Or Youngs and Hartley.

Did Morgan play and perform well at the weekend? He's been a real disappointment from what I've seen of him so far this season, seeming to have gone backwards, particularly in terms of fitness. Vunipola has been the best performing 8 from the EPS so far.

just put Morgan on a treadmill and keep him away from the krispy kreme stand. I actually think had he played in this years 6N he would have made the difference and England would have won the title (be it the GS or on points diff).

The guy is class but like a number of players out there of past and present he loves his pies.

Just get Easter back in, problem solved.

A lot of people claiming that Morgan should be replaced by Billy V so far. Undoubtedly Billy V has had a very good start to the season, and Gustard seems to have done excellent work on his technique in the tackle driving people backwards and jackling.

Morgan, whilst having had a poor first game of the season is a class player. He has the potential, as his performances through last year's AIs and the summer tour has shown to be a truly excellent all-round handling and carrying 8.

For me Billy V still needs to work on that handling aspect of his game. His brother is actually a better handler of the ball at the moment. He would start for me only if Morgan was injured.

As regards the make-up of the pack I think we need four good carriers. To get our game going we need that physicality and that would come from a pack of:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. D Attwood
5. G Parling
6. T Wood
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan

16. R Webber 17. M Vunipola 18. D Cole 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola

I'm not saying it's the pack Lancs will pick as it almost certainly will not be but that has a nice balance to it with some strong carriers. Wilson, T Youngs, Crobs, Attwood and Morgan are all strong carriers. The others are all high work-rate and good carriers/handlers in the loose.

Robshaw didn't seem to have the best of games against Sarries but did well against the Warriors so it's a 50/50 call for me. What I really like about that pack is the bench. The likes of Vunipola x2, Lawes (who had a storming game for Saints against Sale) and Webber coming on against some tired legs is a big call for most sides to face.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Surely the AI's in part are about building depth going towards RWC2015. For that reason alone I would definitely have Wilson start at least 1 game..

But Ozzy, surely there comes a time when the "develpment and depth building " comes second to actually focusing on the first team. We are two years out from the WC (not actually that many games), and i believe the time has come to stop messing about and get this team moving forward. Lets get them used to playing together...get the attack working etc.

Players will get chances through injuries...

EDIT - i may be getting the wrong idea here...if your talking about more kids coming in...then i say no...but if your talking about the two front runners say Cole and Wilson starting games...then ok im with you and agree. Or Youngs and Hartley.

I'm talking about players already within the squad, like Wilson. Cole is clearly first choice, but we are therefore an injury away from Wilson starting a World Cup quarter of semi final against one of the SANZAR sides. I'd like to see him given the chance to start against them now, as we know what Cole can do already.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Surely the AI's in part are about building depth going towards RWC2015. For that reason alone I would definitely have Wilson start at least 1 game..

But Ozzy, surely there comes a time when the "develpment and depth building " comes second to actually focusing on the first team. We are two years out from the WC (not actually that many games), and i believe the time has come to stop messing about and get this team moving forward. Lets get them used to playing together...get the attack working etc.

Players will get chances through injuries...

EDIT - i may be getting the wrong idea here...if your talking about more kids coming in...then i say no...but if your talking about the two front runners say Cole and Wilson starting games...then ok im with you and agree. Or Youngs and Hartley.

I'm talking about players already within the squad, like Wilson.  Cole is clearly first choice, but we are therefore an injury away from Wilson starting a World Cup quarter of semi final against one of the SANZAR sides. I'd like to see him given the chance to start against them now, as we know what Cole can do already.

I don't know that Cole is 'clearly' first choice at the moment at least. I think Wilson's form for the past seven months or so have demonstrated that he deserves to start ahead of Cole, who looks short of his best at the moment. Wilson brings a much better carrying game, at least as good a scrummaging technique and is as fit as i've seen. His jackling work isn't near Cole's but he'd work well in the right England team.

Maybe Glos fans can correct me, but Kvesic just seems more like a tackling machine in the mould of Lydiate at the moment. I haven't seem him make that many turn overs or run particuarly impressive support lines. I'm sure he has got it in his locker, just haven't seen it yet. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that he is much better at the breakdown than Robshaw, I find it curious that many people seem to think that he is.

Cumbrian wrote:Maybe Glos fans can correct me,  but Kvesic just seems more like a tackling machine in the mould of Lydiate at the moment.  I haven't seem him make that many turn overs or run particuarly impressive support lines.  I'm sure he has got it in his locker,  just haven't seen it yet.  I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that he is much better at the breakdown than Robshaw,  I find it curious that many people seem to think that he is.

I haven't seen a lot of Glos either, but based upon what you say, all we need from Kvesic is one good game where Jonathan Davies is commentating and we instantly have the world's greatest player with the ability to destroy every rugby team ever to take the field

Based on last season, Kvesic is a better carrier than Robshaw and better at covering 8. In all other aspects Robshaw is the better player

Cumbrian wrote:Maybe Glos fans can correct me,  but Kvesic just seems more like a tackling machine in the mould of Lydiate at the moment.  I haven't seem him make that many turn overs or run particuarly impressive support lines.  I'm sure he has got it in his locker,  just haven't seen it yet.  I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that he is much better at the breakdown than Robshaw,  I find it curious that many people seem to think that he is.

I think the answer to that is twofold. One, Glaws have been struggling all round in the pack so far this season. They have struggled to exert any sort of dominance at all with the exception of the odd stand-out performer. That has had an impact on his ability to advance to a breakdown, much of it has been conceding metres and retreating.

Secondly, he appears to be effecting rucks and the tackle area. That has not been in winning turnovers but in slowing ball, taking space and generally impacting on play.

I have seen Robshaw have a quiet opener against Saints, excellent game v the Warriors and unimpressive appearance against Saracens so far this campaign. He doesn't deserve to lose his shirt yet but my personal preference would be for Kvesic on the basis he has demonstrated much for Warriors and England age groups around being that style of openside.

From a purely turnover point of view Will Fraser would be my selection! Wallace also made a good cameo for Quins winning a few turnovers on the trot in the dying minutes against Sarries.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Based on last season, Kvesic is a better carrier than Robshaw and better at covering 8. In all other aspects Robshaw is the better player

Oh, and in better form

Robshaw was fine against Sarries except when Burger started getting the advantage in the breakdown in the second half. He was quite against Saints though