Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

Tomkins looks a good 13, I however am of the opinion that Daly is an excellent 13 (better than he is a FB) and would fit in fine next to a sizeable 12 like 36 for the time being. There are several answerable cases at 13, that's why there is no forerunner (well, if we discount Tomkins). There was specifically no consensus, in fact that was the valid conclusion of the discussion above. But if we are going to worry about the lack of game time together of our centre pairing, Australia are trying a new backs combo every game by the looks of it. Our squad is not ideal but despite correct caveats about not writing the Aussies off, there is NO recent evidence of this counter attacking, genius attacking threat of a side you seem to think they are. The lions were dire for 2 tests against Aus and still won will a scratch team and once the scrum was allowed to be used as a weapon they looked utterly doomed. It's very well saying they played well against us after poor results last year, but they are a much worse side than they were last year

I would put money on at least one or two English passes straight into touch each test match.

I would put money on at least one utterly butchered scoring opportunity per test match.

This could take the form of failing to see or pass to a support runner, passing behind the man, passing poorly to a support runner or just a bad drop by a support runner. I'll wager that at least one ball carrier will fail to properly draw a defender before passing.

If you properly analyse the tries against the All Blacks last autumn you will see that in one of them there is an interchange of passes between Barrit and Manu in which one pass is behind the man and a return pass bounces kindly off the defender. The try was scored in spite of these skill failures.

I'll wager that there will be at least one wayward kick (combined with no/poor chase) from Youngs/Care, Farrell/Flood leading to singificant point yielding counter attack in each test match. We gave away a crucial try against Australia this way last AI. Flood's kick I think. It was a simple run in for the then much maligned wallaby side.

I suspect that Folau and his mates will do the same again quite easily if/when given the chance.

These are our typical failings that I have seen over and over again under a succession of coaches.

You cannot coach basic skills to international players. They should have them already.

I am a realist. I know my rugby thanks to some of you calling me blind etc.

I am sorry if I have upset you by going against the upbeat mood.

I shall keep my counsel but I have said my piece. England are odds on to lose 3-0. Brace yourselves.

If they do not, will you return and eat humble pie?


PS - should they lose 3-0 I will hail you the new Messiah AND keep my Movember for a whol eyear.

Noted Triangulation. Not a chance in hell of it being 3 0 against England. Personally think 2 1 to England; possibility of 3 0 to us with a large slice of luck pie.

odds on to lose 3-0

your bookie sucks dude!

LondonTiger wrote:If they do not, will you return and eat humble pie?


PS - should they lose 3-0 I will hail you the new Messiah AND keep my Movember for a whol eyear.

LondonTiger

You have yourself a deal!

Tri is just Tri. I can read the passionate support of England in between his musings of 'concern'. Let's not question passionate supporters' commitment or knowledge without good foundation.

My view would be Eastmond at 13 and I genuinely think Lancs will go that way. He previously put Barritt at 13 with 36 at 12 for the Scotland game I believe. He likes what Eastmond has to offer and his abilities ball in hand and distribution can be eye watering. He's played there for Bath and whilst i'd rather him at 12 as he'd be in the game more he can come in at first receiver and do very well.

He also might be a nice foil for Farrell if we end up going that way. Having both 36 and Eastmond to come in as distributors could really aid his game.

he is talking nonsense lad. there is literally no foundation to his comments

Luther Burrell is leaving the pitch with his arm looking knackered. Are we going to have any centres left come the AI's?

Cumbrian wrote:Luther Burrell is leaving the pitch with his arm looking knackered.  Are we going to have any centres left come the AI's?

There's always Casson   


Actually, he's injured too. As is Lowe. Yay

Time for an England coach to give Tequila Tone a much deserved call up?

Casson was pretty gash today and then went off injured.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Casson was pretty gash today and then went off injured.

He's pretty poor all season so far.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Time for an England coach to give Tequila Tone a much deserved call up?

He struggled a little yesterday, and seemed to be carrying his shoulder from very early on in the game.

Jim Mallinder reckons it is just a 'sore shoulder'.

http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/northampton-saints/saints-boss-mallinder-allays-burrell-injury-fears-1-5560480

On weekend's performances I wouldn't pick any of Eastmond,Tomkins,Ashton,Joseph or Ford. Still time.

Wade did well for Wasps though. Ahead of Ashton at the moment IMO.

Farrell put in another assured performance - I would say he is in a good position for the 10 shirt.

The 13 conundrum is still unsolved in my opinion.

On weekends performances I would not pick Flood or Foden. I would have serious reservations about selecting YoungsB and feel YoungsT outshone Hartley.

The different stats make interesting reading for the potential fly halves, especially when you look at the defences.  


                                 Ford    Farrell    Flood    Burns

Tackles made    81%     67%     90%       63%

To be honest,  I find that had to believe.  I don't believe that Burns & Farrell miss a third of all the tackles they attempt.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24400280

What did Foden do wrong? The bits I caught, I though he did okay.

Cumbrian - I felt he was anonymous yesterday. In defence he was often in the wrong position - something Flood and Morris could have capitalised on if they had lifted their heads up, while in attack he seemed really well shackled. I feel his performance was a long way behind those we have seen from Mike Brown.

beshocked wrote:On weekend's performances I wouldn't pick any of Eastmond,Tomkins,Ashton,Joseph or Ford. Still time.

Wade did well for Wasps though. Ahead  of Ashton at the moment IMO.

Farrell put in another assured performance - I would say he is in a good position for the 10 shirt.

The 13 conundrum is still unsolved in my opinion.

I'd hold Wade and May ahead Ashton in the 14 shirt race at current.

May took his try really impressively showing his power, pace and rugby brain with the line he picked. He's got great all round skills and is very smart at coming off his wing and looking for work. I'd also agree with LT that Brown is well ahead of the other competition for the 15 shirt at current. He's been in really impressive form once again and can't really see how much more he can do to earn a go at FB.

1.Corbs
2.Youngs or Hartley
3.Cole or Wilson - Big Davey is really throwing his hand up and if we want more forward carriers he'd certainly offer it
4.Attwood or Launchberry - Really a debate of what we need rather than who but both are looking fit and on form
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola or Morgan - Billy is in better form but if he can get back to where he was last season Morgan is that bit more dynamic IMO so would get the nod

9.Youngs or Care - Both need to improve their consistency based on recent (and past!) form
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Eastmond or Allen
13.Twelvetrees
14.Wade or May - I know May isn't in with a shot without injuries as he isn't in the EPS, just how I see it though!
15.Brown

That's how I view the selection battles at current. Obviously placing 36 at OC is contentious but with the current injuries and lack of form in other options I'd say pick your best available centres. Which would look like the above IMO.

How do we feel about the AIs challenges now that we have seen another round of the RC?

Anyone want to confess to writing off the aussies a little too quickly as an easy England win?

After a completely undewhelming round of AP matches i'm feeling vindicated in my pessimism. Wish i was wrong though.

Triangulation not sure anyone said we would easily beat the Aussies. Just you would think we should be confident to beat pretty much any side at Twickenham!

2 out of 3 wins and a battling loss with NZ is in all likelihood the expectation.

Farrell looked assured in my opinion. I think as of now the 10 shirt is his to lose. When he came on vs Wasps you could see the difference.

Triangulation wrote:..Anyone want to confess to writing off the aussies a little too quickly as an easy England win?...

I haven't seen anyone argue Australia ought to be an easy win for England. Over the last 25 years, even when we've fancied our chances, no-one I can remember has spoken of an easy win.

However, there's nothing controversial in suggesting Australian rugby is at a weak point in it's cycle. For top teams, though, it's all relative. A floundering England side played it's way to a World Cup final in 2007, so players can suddenly click.

As 2007 also demonstrated, England have a reasonable record at beating over-confident Wallaby teams. From that perspective, I'd prefer to face an Australian side coming off some good wins, so I wouldn't mind if they went on to blindside the All Blacks too before meeting us.

Triangulation your pessimism extends to the Argie game as well. What makes you think we will lose to them?

I still think we should beat Aus at home looking at the likely teams. At this stage in the development that has to be the target. I think it's a much more realistic outcome than getting beat by Argentina also.

Most people including myself have put in Parling and Attwood to start, Attwood has had a great start to the season as real imposing bruiser but has now popped a rib so will be stuggling to find real top flight fitness by the AI's. Out of interest Lawes and Launchberry were both utterly immense on the weekend Lawes got MOTM and Launchberry was everywhere, TBH im a big fan of Attwood but both these other guys in there current form will really push th SH sides. I think Our tight 5 could really push NZ and OZ.

I remain utterly unconvinced

Not entirely sure that round was such a cause for concern. Morgan, Kvesic and 36 were behind a front 5 who were being dominated. You’re always going to have a hard time looking good in those circumstances.

The only position that really bothered me was outside centre. Jon Joseph looked disinterested and poor; Burrell may or may not be injured and Kyle Eastmond was easily contained. Aside from these, who else is there?

I'm not sure I get some peoples opinions,

If we want to beat Australia we are not going to do it with 1/2/3 cap players, we need brute force and experience up front, we need experience, balance and proved partnerships out wide.

Dropping in Attwood, Yarde, Twelvetrees, and Burns is suicide, not because they are bad players but because too many 1/2 cappers weakens a team by default.

I'd be looking to build off the lions contingent...

Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Farell
Ashton
Tuilagi
Twelvetrees
Strettle
Brown

I have comprimised on youth and explosiveness for experience out wide, Leo, AAC and Folau will be huge threats as could be Beale if there and if JOC gets returned not to mention Tomane. Non of these players are top class defenders though, and our wider game could see benefit.

I need Brown in his only position, he isn't a wing, but I'll admit any centre combo we play will have a question mark.

Pack looks great to me though, and has the best balance of pure power and athletisism I've seen for years, unrivalled in the NH I think, especially with the Vunipola's/Croft/Lawes off the bench!

butterfingers wrote:I'm not sure I get some peoples opinions,

If we want to beat Australia we are not going to do it with 1/2/3 cap players, we need brute force and experience up front, we need experience, balance and proved partnerships out wide.

Dropping in Attwood, Yarde, Twelvetrees, and Burns is suicide, not because they are bad players but because too many 1/2 cappers weakens a team by default.

I'd be looking to build off the lions contingent...

Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Farell
Ashton
Tuilagi
Twelvetrees
Strettle
Brown

I have comprimised on youth and explosiveness for experience out wide, Leo, AAC and Folau will be huge threats as could be Beale if there and if JOC gets returned not to mention Tomane. Non of these players are top class defenders though, and our wider game could see benefit.

I need Brown in his only position, he isn't a wing, but I'll admit any centre combo we play will have a question mark.

Pack looks great to me though, and has the best balance of pure power and athletisism I've seen for years, unrivalled in the NH I think, especially with the Vunipola's/Croft/Lawes off the bench!

Tuilagi and Croft are injured so we will have to look towards players with smaller numbers of caps anyway. i've read that Attwood has picked up an injury (?), but I think there is a strong case to play Hartley or Webber with Youngs off the bench and Yarde is surely nailed on for 11.

I thought Tuilagi was ok for the Aus game?

Hartley is a better bench option for me, brings the nastyness on with 20 to go and really seal Aus front row fait!

Is Yarde nailed on? He's had an explosive start to the season, but his weaknesses of last season havn't vanished, he's just gettting more opportunities to highlight his strengths.

After watching the weekends games I wonder why anyone would go with Hartley or Webber over Youngs, Youngs won the battle of the Hookers on the weekend, although smaller he is a better ball carrier than webber and hartley and punches well above his weight. I would say he is a better hooker in almost every facet of play than Hartley and webber (hands, Temprament, speed, mobility, ball carrrying, running lines) I would say his only real risk is that being alot smaller than his props may pose a risk to being split in the scrum, but now the hit has been taken out the scrum anyway, the smaller squat lads seem to be doing better.

sirtidychris wrote:After watching the weekends games I wonder why anyone would go with Hartley or Webber over Youngs, Youngs won the battle of the Hookers on the weekend, although smaller he is a better ball carrier than webber and hartley and punches well above his weight. I would say he is a better hooker in almost every facet of play than Hartley and webber (hands, Temprament, speed, mobility, ball carrrying, running lines) I would say his only real risk is that being alot smaller than his props may pose a risk to being split in the scrum, but now the hit has been taken out the scrum anyway, the smaller squat lads seem to be doing better.

Tell that to Robinson and Alexander!

I'll admit I didn't see Youngs this weekend but it looked like he was struggling with the new scrum rules early on. He's improved?

Not read anything since about Tuilagi since he was ruled out for the AIs. Yarde could be the answer to the left wing for me, think Strettles time has come and gone.

Tuilagi and Croft will play no part in the AIs.

Burrell is possibly out.

Attwood is possibly out.

There will be quite a few more by the time our AIs roll around.

I am sorry if i slightly overstated things but i got the distinct impression that people thought Australia win was almost in the bag due to their current woes.

The thing about the aussies is that they can lose 20 games on the bounce and then click, find their confidence from nowhere and play with real devil as if those 20 losses never happened.

The argentina win was a reminder of that bouncebackability.

I think we are likely to lose to the wallabies because they have lethal finishing, know how to exploit makeshift midfields when attacking, will punish any wayward kicks (which our game is full of) . All they need to do is to avoid getting props red carded.

Argentina will beat us because we'll be reeling from the oz loss and gearing up for the all blacks. They will more than match our strengths at forward and cope with what back line attack we can offer. They're used to playing against the Abs and the boks. We will seem comparatively easy to them and their confidence will lift.

The ABs will then tear us a new one hellbent on revenge as they are and high in confidence.

SO you think england are a pretty shocking team then dude?

Its all about what the other teams will do? We have no chance of being able to push our game on to them?

I have no idea whether he's actually being serious. As long as Aus don't have a prop red carded they'll win? Argentina are used to losing to a higher standard of team so they'll win?

Parling and Launchberry at lock for me thanks.

Rubbish, Triangulation. England should be targeting wins against Australia and the Argies, because our level (currently) is above that of those 2 teams, even taking into account some damaging injuries. No one can ever expect to beat the most dominant force in world rugby, New Zealand, and I would argue the performance is of more importance than the result.

The autumn internationals shouldn't readily dictate our expectations of how England will fare at the 2015 RWC, rather it should shape our expectations for the 2014 Six Nations. A Six Nations that England should be aspiring to win. Only those pesky Welsh players have stood in England's way for the last 2 tournaments. Grrr.

An indicator of how much England will achieve at the World Cup will quite possibly be seen next summer, with 3 games against New Zealand in New Zealand (not a harder test in world rugby), and at the 2015 Six Nations.

go on duty my english bulldog- Get stuck in lad

Tri, not taken your antidepressants again today, then?

Tri very much wants England to do well but feels that saying anything positive about them will somehow ruin any hopes of success. Don't take it too personally

So he is the rugby version of trebbel?
If that truly is the case i will let him off!

Let me off!

I want us to destroy all comers of course i do!!

Only a few things in this world would make me happier than seeing us go on a win crazy rampage through to and beyond the next RWC.

It is just that over the years I feel that we have flattered to deceive too many times and so rather than look too closely at the minutiae of selection, i can't bring myself to be optimistic any more unless i see radical improvement in basic skill execution AND a significant reduction in our injury attrition rate.

I do concede that it's better now than it was under Andy Robinson. God that was awfull. He was coaching with one hand tied behind his back.

Still though everyone is busily posting their Xvs but we all know deep down in places that we do not like to talk about at dinner parties that come the AIs we'll be running an injury induced skeleton crew. Again.

Is trebbelobaggins your cricket posting brother dude?

No. I dont post on cricket.

Triangulation you remind me of Marvin the Paranoid Android.

Ben Kay's first XV published in a rag of a paper today....thank god he is not a selector

15 Goode; 14 Ashton, 13 Joseph, 12 Twelvetrees, 11 Brown; 10 Farrell, 9 Ben Youngs; 1 Mako Vunipola, 2 Tom Youngs, 3 Cole, 4 Parling, 5 Launchbury, 6 Wood (capt), 7 Robshaw, 8 Billy Vunipola.

Oh god, that backline