Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Thats true Mystiroakey, and Brown would be my 15 without question. Even from wing he outplayed most of the other backs...he must have his chance these AI's.

I agree Brown deserves his chance, his defenders beaten stats are consistently excellent. He still lacks real pace from FB though. That's fine as long as the wingers are speed merchants. I don't want to see Strettle or Monye in an England shirt again. Ashton is still a class act and perhaps returning to some form. Wade and Yarde seem in pole position and they could compliment Brown well in my view.

Interestingly that's a back three who play for three different clubs. Could that be an issue?

Indeed we could be looking at a backline where no player plays together at club level:

9. B Youngs 10. O Farrell 11. M Yarde 12. B Twelvetrees 13. L Burrell 14. C Wade 15. M Brown

Issues there possibly?

Pushing from static in a scrum is completely different from tackling or running with the ball. It's all about power as opposed to momentum and recruits different muscles. Weight is secondary but useful.

I agree both those locks are pretty light. Quins are suffering now they've lost Kohn who was 20+ stone. Neither of those are even near him.

yappysnap wrote:Pushing from static in a scrum is completely different from tackling or running with the ball. It's all about power as opposed to momentum and recruits different muscles. Weight is secondary but useful.

I agree both those locks are pretty light. Quins are suffering now they've lost Kohn who was 20+ stone. Neither of those are even near him.

Isn't Merrick 20st?

He's a sissy at 18st 7, Chjw131 (you mash the keypad or something?)

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed we could be looking at a backline where no player plays together at club level:

9. B Youngs 10. O Farrell 11. M Yarde 12. B Twelvetrees 13. L Burrell 14. C Wade 15. M Brown

Issues there possibly?

I don't see that necessarily as a problem. There are obvious benefits to playing together week in week out, but players can often connect well with others they're not that familiar with, quickly performing better than they do with regular teammates. In some cases it may be that the new energy of a team outside their familiar (and possibly tense) club surroundings is just what is needed to get the very best out of them.

Also, although not in the same club sides quite a few of those players know each other fairly well. Youngs & Farrell have been playing and training together for England for almost 2 years now; Youngs & Twelvetrees had years together through the Tigers academy and senior side; and Farrell, Yarde & Wade have featured in the same England age grade sides throughout the years.

Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view

To be fair to lancs though CHJ, that team for Wales above was due to massive injuries. And both Vunipola AND Morgan were injured or ony just returned...and Corbs was injured. Wood was a trial that many of us had actually suggested anyway...one that will never be repeated.

Corbs and a fit Morgan or Vunipola give the pack a different edge straight away...and whilst i have said up above that the second row combo is missing a right hulk of a guy...Parling and Launchbury are still quality players who dont shirk the physical stuff..and offer a huge amount.

RE Brown,
I dont think Browns lack of pace is a massive problem. He has worked on it and certainly isnt slow anyway. But his positioning etc is very good, and with Wade, Yarde, May, Ashton, etc around him...guys with real pace, there isnt an issue at all.

Brown - I just sometimes think his stats for beating defenders (which he is very good at) is so high because he doesnt have the pace to get into space. I think its a lot less of a problem at league level but at international level he does a lot of work which looks great but doesnt always lead to much actual gain

On the Wilson vs Cole debate, I will try not to let my username bias creep in but while Cole is on form one of the best THs around, he currently isn't on form.

Wilson has being playing well for the last year or so and has never been given a chance to show what he can do in an England shirt in the starting team. I don't feel giving him 10 mins at the end is really enough. If noting else, then if Cole is injured for the 2015 WC, we will have a replacement with 30/40 caps and a total game time of probably 200 mins (with most of that coming in the summer vs Argentina), which isn't exactly ideal.

I think SL will be loath to drop Cole as he is quite a conservative coach, but I would love to see Wilson get a chance.

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

I’m a Falcon’s fan; I know where Wilson came from. Wilson is two years older than Cole and has been around the England scene longer, yet he has never been able to get in front of Cole in four years under two different England managers.

You're telling me that Davey Wilson’s scrummaging has gotten better with age and I don't doubt it has (most props do). However, my worry is that people only really started noticing Wilson’s improved scrummaging when Paul James (a strong scrummaging loose head) started to play for Bath.

Don’t get me wrong, if Wilson is as good as you think I would be delighted to have him tearing up trees in at international level. I just have a nagging doubt about it.

I think most of us hope a strong scrummaging loose head in Corbs will be on the other side .. If Wilson can show he is good enough in the scrum to compete at international level, then he does certainly bring a lot of ball carrying prowess to the front row

I would be fine with giving him a game in the AIs, just to see how he performs, Cole is still the starter for me but a good backup is needed

I missed the final part of BT Sport on channel 57 last night... to take an important phone call.
But not before I noticed Luther Burrell getting a mention in the 'England' selection part of the programme.
Anybody see the show ? Any other interesting picks from presenters Bayfield/Austin/ Kay ?

Not really any interesting picks except Joseph at 13. Personally I feel that would be a disastrous pick as of now.

I got the impression that Burrell isnt that badly injured and would be available for the Ai's,...and should be fit.
Him and Twelvetrees at centre..certainly some size and power there...

Cumbrian...wont be long before Englands own Carl Hayman...Mr Scott Wilson takes over both of them anyway  

Edit: On a serious note...the few games he's played this season Brookes has been outstanding both in the tight AND rampaging in the loose. Is he in the saxons squad? Im eating my words about him coming back to us. He could be a challenger (in the future ,not the Ai's)if he keeps this form up...

I'm still waiting for Wilson to decide he is Scottish, reckon it will happen unfortunately.  

Brookes isn't in the Saxons at the moment, but there are only three listed props in the squad at the moment (one of whom is banned for the next couple of months). It's a prediction I made a couple of years ago, but if he keeps improving I can see him getting into the England squad (as back up to Cole and Wilson) very quickly.

It will be interesting to see mate...on both players...

What about the scrumhalf situation chaps?

It's all a little bit mother hubbard there isn't it. And neither Youngs nor Care have lived up to early promise. I do note Youngs is only 24 and has time.

When do scrumhalves peak?

Depends, some like Pichot and arguably Phillips not until late, but as pace is a key part of both of ours games, probably 28 or so. I don't see any issue there though, I think you're inventing problems where they don't exist. Care and Youngs are fine, even better than fine, 1st and 2nd choice scrum halves that would start for almost any other country in the world, and Dickson has good form and another style of game as a 3rd option, but there are plenty of promising young 9s, often several at every club

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

I’m a Falcon’s fan; I know where Wilson came from.  Wilson is two years older than Cole and has been around the England scene longer, yet he has never been able to get in front of Cole in four years under two different England managers.  

You're telling me that Davey Wilson’s scrummaging has gotten better with age and I don't doubt it has (most props do).  However, my worry is that people only really started noticing Wilson’s improved scrummaging when Paul James (a strong scrummaging loose head) started to play for Bath.

Don’t get me wrong, if Wilson is as good as you think I would be delighted to have him tearing up trees in at international level.  I just have a nagging doubt about it.

There's nothing wrong with being cheesed off he left for another club but don't hold it against the guy. What you're saying is that he hasn't got in front of Cole in four years and what i'm saying is that it's only in the last twelve months or so he's actually deserved to be in front of Cole.

I agree that having PJ on the other side can only be good for Wilson but he's not a scrummaging deity. Neither would Wilson be paired with a passive LH he'd be hopefully starting with Corbisiero.

Wilson has scrummaged well with Perinise on the LH and went very well as part of a good pack in Argentina with Marler on the other side. I don't see a decent case made against Wilson. Cole has done nothing wrong but he's not standing out as he once was and giving Wilson the experience would hardly be a bad thing.

Triangulation wrote:

What about the scrumhalf situation chaps?

It's all a little bit mother hubbard there isn't it. And neither Youngs nor Care have lived up to early promise. I do note Youngs is only 24 and has time.

When do scrumhalves peak?

I think if anything, SH is one of our best areas. If we were to have won the GS last season half the team would've been hailed as world beaters. Youngs is an excellent SH as is Care. Philips won out over Youngs on the style of game Gatland wanted to play. Some of his performances (SA tour) have been world class. He's still young as you say and can do more.

Care is another who with a run in a team could be first choice. Morgan Parra is the only better SH in the Northern hemisphere than Youngs or Care in my view. And that's a marginal call.

Chjw131 wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

What about the scrumhalf situation chaps?

It's all a little bit mother hubbard there isn't it. And neither Youngs nor Care have lived up to early promise. I do note Youngs is only 24 and has time.

When do scrumhalves peak?

I think if anything, SH is one of our best areas. If we were to have won the GS last season half the team would've been hailed as world beaters. Youngs is an excellent SH as is Care. Philips won out over Youngs on the style of game Gatland wanted to play. Some of his performances (SA tour) have been world class. He's still young as you say and can do more.

Care is another who with a run in a team could be first choice. Morgan Parra is the only better SH in the Northern hemisphere than Youngs or Care in my view. And that's a marginal call.

But we want to be world beaters don't we? Isn't this the real pecking order? ........

Genia
Fourie Du Preez
Kahn Fotuali
Parra
Phillips
Murray
Youngs
Care

Phillips over Care or Youngs? Ha

Triangulation wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

What about the scrumhalf situation chaps?

It's all a little bit mother hubbard there isn't it. And neither Youngs nor Care have lived up to early promise. I do note Youngs is only 24 and has time.

When do scrumhalves peak?

I think if anything, SH is one of our best areas. If we were to have won the GS last season half the team would've been hailed as world beaters. Youngs is an excellent SH as is Care. Philips won out over Youngs on the style of game Gatland wanted to play. Some of his performances (SA tour) have been world class. He's still young as you say and can do more.

Care is another who with a run in a team could be first choice. Morgan Parra is the only better SH in the Northern hemisphere than Youngs or Care in my view. And that's a marginal call.

But we want to be world beaters don't we?  Isn't this the real pecking order? ........

Genia
Fourie Du Preez
Kahn Fotuali
Parra
Phillips
Murray
Youngs
Care

No, not by any stretch of the imagination. You seem to be picking criteria like "class", "international form", "domestic form", "how they were playing 12 months ago", "how they play one game in every 5", etc at random. That is a ludicrous order. Genia has shown absolutely no consistency whatsoever for almost a year to indicate he should be at near the top of the list unless the ever disputable word "class" comes into it, for example. Phillips is not higher than them on form or class. Parra's form has been hit and miss. Fotuali rarely plays INT rugby and Dickson has looked as good as him for Saints. Just about the only bit of that pecking order I can say looks right is FDP near the top

When is the squad actually named? Next week?

Having thought about everything...id go for..

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Calum Clark
5 Parling
6 Lawes
7 Haskell
8 Wood

9 Foden
10 Burns
11 Brown
12 Farrell
13 Banahan
14 Cueto
15 Goode

GeordieFalcon wrote:Having thought about everything...id go for..

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Calum Clark
5 Parling
6 Lawes
7 Haskell
8 Wood

9 Foden
10 Burns
11 Brown
12 Farrell
13 Banahan
14 Cueto
15 Goode

Hartley over Paice? Ridiculous decision

So this thread has died a natural death.

All threads on here follow a lifecyle and when people post deliberately poopie XVs that is the deathknell.

I shall sign off by echoing Lancaster's call for improved skills from our players. It is something i have been calling for for a long time and im glad he is on to it. Selections are almost secondary to this.

Sorry Cj, what was i thinking!!  

Triangulation wrote:
So this thread has died a natural death.

All threads on here follow a lifecyle and when people post deliberately poopie XVs that is the deathknell.

I shall sign off by echoing Lancaster's call for improved skills from our players. It is something i have been calling for for a long time and im glad he is on to it. Selections are almost secondary to this.  

This is true

Im very sorry Tri, i shall try to resurrect it.

Ok ligitimate question...

Do parling and launchbury compliment each other...are they too similar? Do we need a monster alongside one of those? Or are they big enough and athletic enough...

Remember that during the summer and in the Autumn Internationals Robshaw and Wood were both breakdown machines. On our own ball and turning over opposition.

It was only the 6N's where the whole team went backwards along with the gameplan that we seemed to struggle there. Or maybe not struggle but just stop targetting the breakdown at all. The flankers just seemed to stop trying for turnovers.

yappysnap wrote:Remember that during the summer and in the Autumn Internationals Robshaw and Wood were both breakdown machines. On our own ball and turning over opposition.

It was only the 6N's where the whole team went backwards along with the gameplan that we seemed to struggle there. Or maybe not struggle but just stop targetting the breakdown at all. The flankers just seemed to stop trying for turnovers.

They certainly applied a lot of pressure at the breakdown. During the 6Ns I think mentally the whole tournament took it's toll. They were expecting to kick on from NZ and dominate but that didn't happen. Whilst the line speed remained good teams were crossing the gainline and retreating to a breakdown to effect a turnover is a damn site harder than approaching on the gainline.

Wood from 8 wasn't able to get involved quite as much and Haskell was off colour from his form the previous 6N he played flank. All in all there was a bit of a crisis of confidence stemming from the inability to break down teams like Ireland, France and then Italy. I think the Italy performance was the worst by a stretch it almost reminded me of Itlay v England 2010. Dire.

Chjw131 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Remember that during the summer and in the Autumn Internationals Robshaw and Wood were both breakdown machines. On our own ball and turning over opposition.

It was only the 6N's where the whole team went backwards along with the gameplan that we seemed to struggle there. Or maybe not struggle but just stop targetting the breakdown at all. The flankers just seemed to stop trying for turnovers.

They certainly applied a lot of pressure at the breakdown. During the 6Ns I think mentally the whole tournament took it's toll. They were expecting to kick on from NZ and dominate but that didn't happen. Whilst the line speed remained good teams were crossing the gainline and retreating to a breakdown to effect a turnover is a damn site harder than approaching on the gainline.

Wood from 8 wasn't able to get involved quite as much and Haskell was off colour from his form the previous 6N he played flank. All in all there was a bit of a crisis of confidence stemming from the inability to break down teams like Ireland, France and then Italy. I think the Italy performance was the worst by a stretch it almost reminded me of Itlay v England 2010. Dire.

Watched that at the in-laws, her brother sat down and watch it with me after listening to me go on about rugby for years. Needless to say he was unimpressed and I was quite embarrassed...

I am sad to say I was present at that England game. Awful rugby, a cold day and worst of all it was on a Sunday, otherwise I would have been drinking to try and forget it!

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

I’m a Falcon’s fan; I know where Wilson came from.  Wilson is two years older than Cole and has been around the England scene longer, yet he has never been able to get in front of Cole in four years under two different England managers.  

You're telling me that Davey Wilson’s scrummaging has gotten better with age and I don't doubt it has (most props do).  However, my worry is that people only really started noticing Wilson’s improved scrummaging when Paul James (a strong scrummaging loose head) started to play for Bath.

Don’t get me wrong, if Wilson is as good as you think I would be delighted to have him tearing up trees in at international level.  I just have a nagging doubt about it.

There's nothing wrong with being cheesed off he left for another club but don't hold it against the guy. What you're saying is that he hasn't got in front of Cole in four years and what i'm saying is that it's only in the last twelve months or so he's actually deserved to be in front of Cole.

I agree that having PJ on the other side can only be good for Wilson but he's not a scrummaging deity. Neither would Wilson be paired with a passive LH he'd be hopefully starting with Corbisiero.

Wilson has scrummaged well with Perinise on the LH and went very well as part of a good pack in Argentina with Marler on the other side. I don't see a decent case made against Wilson. Cole has done nothing wrong but he's not standing out as he once was and giving Wilson the experience would hardly be a bad thing.

Just spotted this.

How condescending, I am not cheesed off or holding anything against him, people can hold a different view from you without having ulterior motives for it. I happen to genuinely believe without bias that Cole is the better player.

I haven’t seen Wilson scrummage with Anthony Perenise this season (In every Bath game I’ve seen there has been mass front row substitutions on 50 mins). So I can’t comment on that but I wouldn’t hold beating up a third string Argentine team as any kind of evidence. It’s worth noting that Leicester’s scrum doesn’t often get beaten despite having Munipola on the looshead side (not the most technical prop in the world).

As for Wilson being paired with Corbisiero, there is a lot of rugby to be played between now and the AI’s and Corbisiero is prone to getting broken. I’m not as confident with a Marler/ Vunipola, Youngs and Cole front row, I’d be even less so with Wilson slotting into that.

Also, I believe people are over egging Wilson’s carrying game somewhat. I’ve been watching him for years and whilst it’s better than Cole’s, I wouldn’t go overboard about it.

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

I’m a Falcon’s fan; I know where Wilson came from.  Wilson is two years older than Cole and has been around the England scene longer, yet he has never been able to get in front of Cole in four years under two different England managers.  

You're telling me that Davey Wilson’s scrummaging has gotten better with age and I don't doubt it has (most props do).  However, my worry is that people only really started noticing Wilson’s improved scrummaging when Paul James (a strong scrummaging loose head) started to play for Bath.

Don’t get me wrong, if Wilson is as good as you think I would be delighted to have him tearing up trees in at international level.  I just have a nagging doubt about it.

There's nothing wrong with being cheesed off he left for another club but don't hold it against the guy. What you're saying is that he hasn't got in front of Cole in four years and what i'm saying is that it's only in the last twelve months or so he's actually deserved to be in front of Cole.

I agree that having PJ on the other side can only be good for Wilson but he's not a scrummaging deity. Neither would Wilson be paired with a passive LH he'd be hopefully starting with Corbisiero.

Wilson has scrummaged well with Perinise on the LH and went very well as part of a good pack in Argentina with Marler on the other side. I don't see a decent case made against Wilson. Cole has done nothing wrong but he's not standing out as he once was and giving Wilson the experience would hardly be a bad thing.

Just spotted this.

How condescending, I am not cheesed off or holding anything against him, people can hold a different view from you without having ulterior motives for it.  I happen to genuinely believe without bias that Cole is the better player.

I haven’t seen Wilson scrummage with Anthony Perenise this season (In every Bath game I’ve seen there has been mass front row substitutions on 50 mins). So I can’t comment on that but I wouldn’t hold beating up a third string Argentine team as any kind of evidence.  It’s worth noting that Leicester’s scrum doesn’t often get beaten despite having Munipola on the looshead side (not the most technical prop in the world).

As for Wilson being paired with Corbisiero,  there is a lot of rugby to be played between now and the AI’s and Corbisiero is prone to getting broken.  I’m not as confident with a Marler/ Vunipola, Youngs and Cole front row,  I’d be even less so with Wilson slotting into that.

Also,  I believe people are over egging Wilson’s carrying game somewhat.  I’ve been watching him for years and whilst it’s better than Cole’s, I wouldn’t go overboard about it.

Certainly not intended to be condescending, apologies if that's the way you read it.

What you're doing however, is it seems continually finding excuses as to why Wilson has appeared to perform better; be that over the last season or on tour. The point stands that he's performed very well in every pack he's appeared in. Whether you want to attribute that to other players, the opposition or Jupiter aligning with Saturn is up to you. What i'm saying is that on the evidence he's done very well consistently for a season and a half.

His carrying game which you're now also calling into question is good for a player in his position. He's had some notable runs and carries both for Bath last season (against Exeter?) carrying a number of players to the line and for England against the Barbarians and Argentina. If you again want to attribute those to poor defending or whatever that's your call. What it begins to amount to though is what I alluded to above, you seem to be finding every reason what he's not actually performing well.

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I must admit that I don't understand why people seem intent on swapping Dan Cole for David Wilson. In my opinion Cole is one of the best tightheads in the world and the first name on the team sheet.  Wilson is doing well at club level but never really set the world alight in his previous 28 caps.  What are you guys seeing in him that I am not?

Somewhere over 90% of Davy Wilson's caps have come as a replacement. His potential was identified at Falcons years ago but it's only really in the last season or two that he's really started to impress. It's a very difficult call and Cole has done nothing specifically wrong. I would say Wilson's scrummaging is at least as good as Cole's. His other work in an area we lack players, is also of real importance.

The Wales pack is the template of an England pack which doesn't seem to work. For one reason or another they do not have the power as a unit which is required for the current game plan. Against SA a pack of 1. J Marler 2. T YOungs 3. D Cole 4. J Launchbury 5. G Parling 6. T Croft 7. C Robshaw 8. T Wood would be marmalised in my view.

They should at least have had the best line-out in the world but it was a shambles. It is balance that we're looking. Adding Wilson, Attwood and Morgan/Vunipola goes a long way to rebalancing that pack.

I’m a Falcon’s fan; I know where Wilson came from.  Wilson is two years older than Cole and has been around the England scene longer, yet he has never been able to get in front of Cole in four years under two different England managers.  

You're telling me that Davey Wilson’s scrummaging has gotten better with age and I don't doubt it has (most props do).  However, my worry is that people only really started noticing Wilson’s improved scrummaging when Paul James (a strong scrummaging loose head) started to play for Bath.

Don’t get me wrong, if Wilson is as good as you think I would be delighted to have him tearing up trees in at international level.  I just have a nagging doubt about it.

There's nothing wrong with being cheesed off he left for another club but don't hold it against the guy. What you're saying is that he hasn't got in front of Cole in four years and what i'm saying is that it's only in the last twelve months or so he's actually deserved to be in front of Cole.

I agree that having PJ on the other side can only be good for Wilson but he's not a scrummaging deity. Neither would Wilson be paired with a passive LH he'd be hopefully starting with Corbisiero.

Wilson has scrummaged well with Perinise on the LH and went very well as part of a good pack in Argentina with Marler on the other side. I don't see a decent case made against Wilson. Cole has done nothing wrong but he's not standing out as he once was and giving Wilson the experience would hardly be a bad thing.

Just spotted this.

How condescending, I am not cheesed off or holding anything against him, people can hold a different view from you without having ulterior motives for it.  I happen to genuinely believe without bias that Cole is the better player.

I haven’t seen Wilson scrummage with Anthony Perenise this season (In every Bath game I’ve seen there has been mass front row substitutions on 50 mins). So I can’t comment on that but I wouldn’t hold beating up a third string Argentine team as any kind of evidence.  It’s worth noting that Leicester’s scrum doesn’t often get beaten despite having Munipola on the looshead side (not the most technical prop in the world).

As for Wilson being paired with Corbisiero,  there is a lot of rugby to be played between now and the AI’s and Corbisiero is prone to getting broken.  I’m not as confident with a Marler/ Vunipola, Youngs and Cole front row,  I’d be even less so with Wilson slotting into that.

Also,  I believe people are over egging Wilson’s carrying game somewhat.  I’ve been watching him for years and whilst it’s better than Cole’s, I wouldn’t go overboard about it.

Certainly not intended to be condescending, apologies if that's the way you read it.

What you're doing however, is it seems continually finding excuses as to why Wilson has appeared to perform better; be that over the last season or on tour. The point stands that he's performed very well in every pack he's appeared in. Whether you want to attribute that to other players, the opposition or Jupiter aligning with Saturn is up to you. What i'm saying is that on the evidence he's done very well consistently for a season and a half.

His carrying game which you're now also calling into question is good for a player in his position. He's had some notable runs and carries both for Bath last season (against Exeter?) carrying a number of players to the line and for England against the Barbarians and Argentina. If you again want to attribute those to poor defending or whatever that's your call. What it begins to amount to though is what I alluded to above, you seem to be finding every reason what he's not actually performing well.

Okay, I didn’t mean to come across as precious either.

No I'm not. I've suggested one reason (not excuse!) and that is Paul James. I'm not saying it to be contrary (and I accept that I could be wrong about this), I just don't believe Wilson's scrummaging is as good as Cole's. The fact that Cole has been consistently picked ahead of him (indeed even in the last season and a half) by successive England managers and Lion's coaches speaks more than good performances against a scratch Barbarians team and 3rd string Argentines.

I'm not 'now' questioning Wilson's carrying game either, I’ve been a bit skeptical about how strong it is since people started mentioning it. It is undoubtedly stronger than Cole's but I don’t think it is so strong that it is a game changer in the argument.

Let me emphasise as well, I’ve never said that Wilson isn’t playing well or that he is a poor prop. I just don’t believe he’s a better player than Cole; especially as you’ve pointed out Cole has done nothing wrong. My problem is that people are always looking to just change things, look at the situation with Morgan and how some people are now suggesting Dave Ewers ahead of him. From my point of view, we've got a Lion's prop who would have started were it not for Adam Jones being outstanding and people are calling for him to be replaced.

However, I’d love to agree that Wilson is an all scrummaging, all rampaging bull of a prop who is just waiting to take Cole’s place but I just don’t see it. I live in hope that I’m going to be proved wrong though.  

Cole was quite disappointing on the lions tour. He should have been pushing Jones all the way with solid scrum work and superior ruck skills.  It just didn't happen in the end.

Good solid player and few better but he has to start making his mark as a top class player and that begins with his bread and butter.... the scrum.

He looked a bit trim on tour whereas if you look at the mould of most tightheads these days, Jones, Murray, Franks, Du Plessis, Oosthuizen etc they are all seemingly stockier, stronger, heavier chaps.

Its not the be all and end all but since the 6N he has needed to show his core skills are up there with the best.

fa0019 wrote:Cole was quite disappointing on the lions tour. He should have been pushing Jones all the way with solid scrum work and superior ruck skills.  It just didn't happen in the end.

Good solid player and few better but he has to start making his mark as a top class player and that begins with his bread and butter.... the scrum.

He looked a bit trim on tour whereas if you look at the mould of most tightheads these days, Jones, Murray, Franks, Du Plessis, Oosthuizen etc they are all seemingly stockier, stronger, heavier chaps.

Its not the be all and end all but since the 6N he has needed to show his core skills are up there with the best.

I reckon that's a good summary of the disappointment I have re: Cole. He just looked under-cooked on the Lions tour, he's never been a massively destructive scrummager and has suffered at the hands of Domingo on more than a few occasions. What he did have though, was the opportunity to prove why he should've started ahead of Jones on tour.

If he had been able to raise his defence and ruck skills to the right level I believe he would've displaced Jones. He may well have been tired having not played so many games in a season before, and it does not make him a bad prop. He's got room to go before he can claim to be one of the world's very best and I now question whether he'll get there.

Incidentally Cumbrian I agree with you whole-heartedly on the Morgan front. It's absurd, something i've mentioned on other threads, to claim Morgan is to be dispensed with. He's got all the attributes to be an outstanding No.8 and he has showed those skills in an England shirt.

Dave Ewers I touted last season and he's not disappointed so far. He's young and raw though and needs a lot more experience in the AP and HEC to stake a proper claim. I wouldn't mind seeing him play 6 as well though.

As regards Wilson we'll have to disagree about the magnitude of his current form. I'm not one for chopping and changing on a whim either, but surely you can agree it would do us no harm to allow him to start a game or two in the Autumn?

Chjw131 wrote:Incidentally Cumbrian I agree with you whole-heartedly on the Morgan front. It's absurd, something i've mentioned on other threads, to claim Morgan is to be dispensed with. He's got all the attributes to be an outstanding No.8 and he has showed those skills in an England shirt.

Dave Ewers I touted last season and he's not disappointed so far. He's young and raw though and needs a lot more experience in the AP and HEC to stake a proper claim. I wouldn't mind seeing him play 6 as well though.

As regards Wilson we'll have to disagree about the magnitude of his current form. I'm not one for chopping and changing on a whim either, but surely you can agree it would do us no harm to allow him to start a game or two in the Autumn?

Agreed, I wouldn't mind seeing him get some significant game time during the AI's. I've long been an advocate of England trying to develop at least two interchangeable players in each position. I'd be delighted if Wilson came in and flourished, it is not good to be over reliant on one player.

Ewers looks a fantastic player and I would have him in the Saxons as soon as possible, he's got to have more potential than somebody like Thomas Waldrom.

Well got to say im quite happy with Cole, he might be slightly lighter than some of the big no.3's but he's a quality TH. He gets though lots of work, his scrimmaging is top drawer and hes hugely effective in the rucks etc.
And I don't think you'll find Leicester playing a guy who's poor at scrummaging.

Wilson has found some form under Gold as has Attwood etc (hopefully Fearns can aswell if he ever stays injury free) but he will start of the bench against Aus and NZ (may start against Argentina) and he will need to show us how his current form translates to the international scene against the real deal opposition. I don't think a second rate Argentina 3rd team is a suitable test.

But if he performs well then he should be considered a suitable challenge for Cole...and it will be nice to have two good TH's keeping the spot warm until Scott Wilson takes the shirt permanently  

Ewers puts in a suberb performance against the Blues and wins a MOTM award. He really was very good, he was barging people and drwaing defenders but he also has such an engine on him. Got to be looking to try and offer him a place for the Saxons against Ireland in January.

Why not bring Ewers in to replace Croft, and see him as a possible blindside?

Yeah why not, we could include him as part of a heavy duty (plausible-ish) pack:

01. Alex Corbisiero (6ft 1in & 18st 8lb)
02. Rob Webber (6ft 0in & 17st 5lb)
03. David Wilson (6ft 2in & 19st 3lb)
04. Matt Garvey (6ft 6in & 20st 0lb)
05. Joe Launchbury (6ft 6in & 18st 6lb)- need at least one athletic player in there.
06. Dave Ewers (6ft 4in & 18st 1lb)
07. Chris Robshaw (6ft 2in & 17st 4lb)
08. Ben Morgan (6ft 3in & 18st 3lb)

Plenty of carrying and power!

To be honest though, I’d be waery about throwing a player in their first full season as a club starter. Especially as we have a couple of more experienced options that could play there.

The frightening thing is that's probably still lighter than the South African pack...

Mike Brown was once again exceptional on Saturday in an otherwise poor to abject overall performance by my Club (until they started trying 60 mins too late). He is genuinely playing like an absolute hero

I'm coming round to the idea of Brown starting for England, he hasn't played badly in a game that I've seen in a very long time.

Cumbrian wrote:Yeah why not,  we could include him as part of a heavy duty (plausible-ish) pack:

01. Alex Corbisiero (6ft 1in & 18st 8lb)
02. Rob Webber (6ft 0in & 17st 5lb)
03. David Wilson (6ft 2in & 19st 3lb)
04. Matt Garvey (6ft 6in & 20st 0lb)
05. Joe Launchbury (6ft 6in & 18st 6lb)- need at least one athletic player in there.
06. Dave Ewers (6ft 4in & 18st 1lb)
07. Chris Robshaw (6ft 2in & 17st 4lb)
08. Ben Morgan (6ft 3in & 18st 3lb)

Plenty of carrying and power!

To be honest though,  I’d be waery about throwing a player in their first full season as a club starter.  Especially as we have a couple of more experienced options that could play there.

If you were picking on heavy duty or form criteria, surely you'd have Vunipola (19st 11lb) in there over Morgan who didn't even make the Gloucester bench at the weekend.