Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

johnpartle wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Yeah why not,  we could include him as part of a heavy duty (plausible-ish) pack:

01. Alex Corbisiero (6ft 1in & 18st 8lb)
02. Rob Webber (6ft 0in & 17st 5lb)
03. David Wilson (6ft 2in & 19st 3lb)
04. Matt Garvey (6ft 6in & 20st 0lb)
05. Joe Launchbury (6ft 6in & 18st 6lb)- need at least one athletic player in there.
06. Dave Ewers (6ft 4in & 18st 1lb)
07. Chris Robshaw (6ft 2in & 17st 4lb)
08. Ben Morgan (6ft 3in & 18st 3lb)

Plenty of carrying and power!

To be honest though,  I’d be waery about throwing a player in their first full season as a club starter.  Especially as we have a couple of more experienced options that could play there.

If you were picking on heavy duty or form criteria, surely you'd have Vunipola (19st 11lb) in there over Morgan who didn't even make the Gloucester bench at the weekend.

For some balance you could pair that pack with a backline picked purely for pace!

9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.Yarde or May 12.Eastmond 13.Daly 14.Wade 15.Foden or Tait

What is the crack with Morgan then? Is it simply a fitness issue or are there other problems we arent aware of?

Don't know GF just looks a bit underdone. He's had a fairly tumultuous season or two and perhaps that's taken it's toll.

Despite what others have said he didn't perform badly in a beaten team against Chiefs. He hasn't made any impact which for an 'impact' player is not a good start. He'll come good but needs a few games to do so. He's started two so far this season.

That means Billy V as the only candidate to start which I have some residual concerns over.

Some recent suggestions in the papers over the weekend....

Stephen Jones - in the Times says we have to go all out for the abrasive "nasty" types now and hang the statistics around players hitting rucks etc. He has a massive mancrush on Lawes and wants to partner him in the second row with Attwood. He also wants Twelvetrees and Burrell as a centre combination.

Stuart Barnes - again in the Times wants to play Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12. I think he called for this about a year ago as well. I suppose it is remaking the old U20 combination and he wants to keep Farrell's goalkicking in the side. Personally i think Farrell plays 10 or nowhere.

Austin Healey - also posted his XV and it has Parling and Launchbury retained as second row with Lawes at 6 Vunipola at 8 and Robshaw at 7 to counter any issues of a "lightweight" second row pairing. He also called for Strettle over Ashton on the wing....

Why does everyone think Lawes is some kind of heavy weight enforcer? Have they ever watched him play?!

Is Healey now trying to troll England fans as well as the Welsh! I'm still wanting Hartley or Webber to get the nod this set of AIs. I may be wrong but from what I saw of the Leicester game Youngs didn't look that comfortable hooking and the pack looked like they were just trying to push over the ball. Ain't going to work against SA! I could be wrong as I was channel hopping; anyone see this?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Healey now trying to troll England fans as well as the Welsh! I'm still wanting Hartley or Webber to get the nod this set of AIs. I may be wrong but from what I saw of the Leicester game Youngs didn't look that comfortable hooking and the pack looked like they were just trying to push over the ball. Ain't going to work against SA! I could be wrong as I was channel hopping; anyone see this?

We don't play SA this AI but i understand that Youngs has taken a little bit of time to settle to the new scrum engagment.

Young's ball carrying in heavy traffic is immense so for me if he holds his own at the scrum and doesn't have a nightmare in the lineouts then he has to start every time for me.

He was singled out for praise by the ABs following our win over them last AI. He was a real thorn in their side that day.

Yes, Lawes at 6 worked so well at last time didn't it

Yup. You're very correct re SA this AI! I blame a 2 day hangover. Youngs offers a lot around the park but i just think Hartley has started the season very well, offers a bit more in the set pieces and has been carrying well. Would love to see Webber build on the summer as well.

Why does everyone think Lawes is some kind of heavy weight enforcer? Have they ever watched him play?!.

Totally with you there CJ...

Farrell at 12? No thanks 10 or nowhere.

I thought Leicester fans had said Youngs had taken a bit of time to get used to the scrums...BUT is now really taking to them well and is flying?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Why does everyone think Lawes is some kind of heavy weight enforcer? Have they ever watched him play?!

To be fair, if you watch a lot of rugbydump videos, you might well come to that conclusion.


Farrell at 12 should not be an option, either we back him to run a game or we don't. For the record I do and frankly unless Burns pulls his finger out he isn't going to have much competition.

Youngs is a bit of a luxury for me... if you have a decent scrum outside of the hooker then he's worth a punt. If not I'd stick with Hartley... had he not been banned I would have said he would have got the test jersey... all round skills is high.

Hartley has a better lineout too IMO.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Why does everyone think Lawes is some kind of heavy weight enforcer? Have they ever watched him play?!

To be fair, if you watch a lot of rugbydump videos, you might well come to that conclusion.


Farrell at 12 should not be an option, either we back him to run a game or we don't. For the record I do and frankly unless Burns pulls his finger out he isn't going to have much competition.

I myself think if Lawes is managed well he could surpass all his current peers, I think he's very talented.

However.. he hasn't developed like he should have done. He's similar and in fact more athletic then Eben.... yet Eben carries about 15kg bulk more then lawes.... if you want to play 4 you have to have size. This isn't volleyball or basketball. You can't play a chap like Parling next to him as Parling is a Matfield type specialist... he himself needs some lump that won't move 1inch backwards.

Eben can get upended now and again but no one messes with Eben.. can't say the same with Lawes at the moment.

If Lawes put in some heavy duty bulk I think he'd still be athletic but would be able to command respect in the tight too... and that would be a rare sight and a great asset to England.

Lawes is currently a bit of a 4 1/2 in an odd way. He's athletic, has done some sterling work as a line-out jumper and hits hard. He has gone to lengths to work on his carrying and he showed evidence of that against Tigers and Quins.

He could be really top drawer but his perfect SR partner is Attwood who can run the line-out and offer the tight work as well. Deacon would be another who can run the line-out and the tight stuff.

What Healy is on about God alone knows. If we're going to play a SR at 6 Joe Launchbury would be a) more suited and b) do a much better job on the evidence.

I agree... he's a good replacement when you can only have 1 lock... but as a starter, at the moment there are better 4s and better 5s... and in my view, its someting Lawes could surpass if he chooses a position and then knuckles down.

I have a very faintly amusing story from when I played an important ish rugby Match for my 2nd XV a couple of years ago. I'd been injured and was playing off the bench as a flanker-lock (I should only really play flanker, too short for lock). Captain sent me on when we were losing in the last 20 telling me to "play a Courtney Lawes game" at second row. My first act was to carry and make 7-8m in the tight, then get stripped of the ball in contact by a centre

He can't complain then; you followed his instructions perfectly!

 Williams ?

CJ- Was there a held up try in injury time too?!

Personally i think Lawes needs to just focus on becoming a lineout king. We always say we have lineout experts who arent tough enough...well Lawes most definately has a physical edge...just not the type to make him the big one of the combo.

Imagine a combo of a big brute, and Lawes as a lineout guy with his tackling etc.

BUT, im not convinced we'll see that.

Actually Geordie I completely agree

If Lawes could concentrate on being a no.5 then that would be great for England... like a modern day Ian Jones or Mark Andrews.

Brown simply has to start at 15 in my opinion. Quins were pretty dire on the weekend, but Brown stood out in a poor team. He was a real attacking threat, scored 2 tries mostly off his own back and tackled everything. Surely he has done enough to get the nod over the other contenders.

Admittedly I haven't seen the others play - can anyone attest to Good's and Fodens performances?

Geordie

I feel like we have had this conversation before, only this time you haven't mentioned Garvey...yet!

I agree though and in fairness it does seem as if he is working on his lineouts. He doesn't have to reach Borthwick levels, but at the moment he (in my mind) is neither an enforcer, an atheletic extra flanker type or a lineout guru, but somewhere inbetween. He is clearly liked by SL so if he can improve on the lineout he may find himself in a strong position to nail down a starting spot.

Good to hear about Brown. The dude is nails!!!

If we are talking about Lawes improving as a lineout guy, do you mean as someone who can run the lineout, or just as a top class jumper?

There are a few players that I think are probably likely to start for England - Australia is the 1st game isn't it? Others a given the opportunity to start because of injury to regulars - that being the case I would like to see -

Corbis - Youngs - Cole
Parling-Attwood
Wood-Robshaw-Vaunipola
Care (looking marginally sharper than Youngs)
Farrell
Ashton
Twelvetrees (was looking shakey, but vindicated after performance against Perpingan)
Tompkins (could just as easily be Eastmond, Joseph has dropped off form a bit)
Yarde (think SL will prefer the bigger option for defending against felau)
Brown

Bench of -
M.Vauipola, Webber (Hartley still needs to prove discipline), Wilson, Lawes, Morgan (lucky to be there but no other adequate/fit cover for no.8), Youngs, F.Burns, Foden

Ha ha Bathman...ah im being restrained about that fella  

I think we and probably most people agree...Lawes is caught in the middle. Hes not one thing or another and i do think thats an issue at Second Row - thought possibly not as much if Croft is there.

Id be hammering him every day on his lineout skills...and i do want them to be as good as Borthwicks!

Morgan has put Lancaster, Rowntree, Catt and Farrell in a difficult position by eating all the pies and letting himself go.

Burns, Kvesic and indirectly England have been shafted by their tight 5's incomepetence.

Morgan should be punished with non selection. What he has done cuts against everything Lancaster is trying to build.

Drop him and promote young Ewers to back up Vunipola. If you are good enough you're old enough.

Strettle - not good enough. Never was. Should not have had the chances he has. Drop him for May.

Ashton - on last warning. Perform and either score or assist a score vs Australia or get dropped forever.

Robshaw - last chance

Wood - If he gets bullied in a Test Match - drop him

Hartley - more than 1 penalty per game or any silly penalties - drop him forever

Brown - if he gets gassed for pace at all in the AIs drop him forever

Farrell - if he cant ignite the back line - drop hin forever

You get the drift? It is time for Lancaster and his coaches to grasp the bull by the horns. It is now or never time and the entire squad needs to be told this in no uncertain terms.

Problem is players who just slot in to international rugby from day one tend to be thin on the ground. That and the criteria you have going on there is a bit odd. Robshaw for instance - his club form isnt great but please tell when was the last time he had a bad international performance? given that he was one of the better performers vs Wales.

Morgan - is too good a player to ditch but he shouldnt be picked until he is back in shape. He should be part of the extended squad unless there is no chance of him coming back.

Is the fact that Bill Vunipola is playing a lot of games at 6 going to be a problem?  Probably not for the immediate future,  but if it carries on indefinitely it could leave us with problems.

at 10, it strikes me you have to play the very best 10 in that position. if farrells a better 10 then he plays 10. if he's the best 12, and there's a better 10, he should play 12. anything else and he's on the bench.

look at how the (13 in the last was it?) starting welsh players in the lions tests played with sexton at 10. just reaffirmed to me how absolutely critical 10 is, most especially decision-making and tactical kicking.

its why wilkinson is so loved in toulon for me. old, slow but nails and a great decision maker (has a bit of experience under his belt i grant you).

We cannot afford to waste any more time or caps on substandard players particularly when we have some good emerging depth.

I feel a bloody cull coming on.

If it doesnt happen this AI or even 6N (which lets face it does encourage mediocrity) then we will have some casualties on our 3 Test tour of NZ.

That is excellent.

Clean out the dead wood.

Look at New Zealand they blood young players into settled teams and 9.9 times out of 10 those players do click straight away at international level.

What they dont do is carry passengers.

Tri

Although I can only think of 2 instances when NZ have not played a full strength side (outside of RWC pool matches etc)... that was their 02 AI tour and their 2011 SA 3N leg.

If they do blood players its alongside veterans. Its never sink or swim with the ABs.

FA

that is true yes. It doesnt contradict what im saying though. Im talking about the blokes with numerous caps who arent good enough.
Adios

Is the team that is on the post the team for the Ais. Or is the team/squad yet too be named?

From what i have seen so far from the England players, they will have to improve an hell of lot between now and the Ais. That is for sure.

Yet to be named Majestic, that was my original preference for starting XV against Australia.
Are we all going to be happy with 2 wins and a strong performance against New Zealand?

Triangulation wrote:
Morgan has put Lancaster, Rowntree, Catt and Farrell in a difficult position by eating all the pies and letting himself go.

Burns,  Kvesic and indirectly England have been shafted by their tight 5's incomepetence.

Morgan should be punished with non selection. What he has done cuts against everything Lancaster is trying to build.

Drop him and promote young Ewers to back up Vunipola. If you are good enough you're old enough.

Strettle - not good enough. Never was. Should not have had the chances he has. Drop him for May.

Ashton - on last warning. Perform and either score or assist a score vs Australia or get dropped forever.

Robshaw - last chance

Wood - If he gets bullied in a Test Match - drop him

Hartley - more than 1 penalty per game or any silly penalties - drop him forever

Brown - if he gets gassed for pace at all in the AIs drop him forever

Farrell - if he cant ignite the back line - drop hin forever

You get the drift? It is time for Lancaster and his coaches to grasp the bull by the horns. It is now or never time and the entire squad needs to be told this in no uncertain terms.

If this applies for Gloucester and Kvesic it MUST apply for Robshaw then as our tight 5 have been awful. I also don't think your drop everyone if they make a mistake policy is very clever - the best players/managers/everything ever are the ones that are allowed to settle into a position and side, in pretty much every sport ever. Continuity frankly does far more for a side than knee-jerk changes

I'd completely agree with those who feel Brown mus start at 15 for the AI's, he's been immense this season in a struggling side. At the start of the Prem season I felt it was between Brown and Foden - right now I'd say MB is well ahead as first choice and if he performs in the AI's I'd say Tait is the only one who I'd consider replacing him with for the 6N as he has all the high ball skills of Brown with the added spark you get from his pace and creativity. That said there's a lot of water to pass under the bridge between now and then!

I'd also point out that I'd not be a big advocate of having Morgan or Billy V on the bench as they offer little versatility across the back row. Personally I'd look to have 8.Vunipola or Morgan with 20.Kvesic or Haskell to offer cover across all three positions and an ability to change things up in the pack if needed.

Billy would be a fantastic bench option covering 6/8.

I'd rather have his impact covering the 2 positions than Kvesic who's half the player covering 3.

Cumbrian wrote:Is the fact that Bill Vunipola is playing a lot of games at 6 going to be a problem?  Probably not for the immediate future,  but if it carries on indefinitely it could leave us with problems.

Of the 5 games he's played for Saracens this season 2 have been at 8 and in the others when wearing 6 he swaps with Joubert at 8 depending on the situation.  Plus when Joubert has been playing it's usually him that's been subbed off with Vunipola going to 8.


Regarding Lawes' development in the lineout, I noticed he made 3 steals against Castres at the weekend.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Billy would be a fantastic bench option covering 6/8.

I'd rather have his impact covering the 2 positions than Kvesic who's half the player covering 3.

In the same way that having Croft/Wood on the bench could leave us screwed if our 8 got injured, having Billy or Morgan on the bench would leave us struggling were Robshaw or Wood to get injured.

6.Vunipola
7.Robshaw or Wood - depending on which goes off
8.Morgan

We'd have some ball carrying there no doubt, but given that Billy and Morgan are guys who's fitness (though BVs has improved drastically) is questioned for the full 80 at Prem level we'd be struggling massively for work rate around the park. This would also impact on the rest of the pack as they'd all have to work exceptionally hard to try to keep up!

Hence I'd be much more comfortable with Kvesic/Haskell on the bench along with Attwood or Slater covering second row so we can bring some bulk on if needed.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola or Morgan
16.Hartley 17.Vunipola 18.Wilson 19.Attwood or Slater 20.Kvesic or Haskell

The above pack I really like the look of as the starting players have the agility and work rate to play a fast paced game looking to put width on the ball - with Manu out we really have to do that now! The bench then offer strong ball carriers across the entire front 5 for later in the game when the defence is tiring and Haskell or Kvesic would offer us the chance to mix things up in the backrow.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Billy would be a fantastic bench option covering 6/8.

I'd rather have his impact covering the 2 positions than Kvesic who's half the player covering 3.

In the same way that having Croft/Wood on the bench could leave us screwed if our 8 got injured, having Billy or Morgan on the bench would leave us struggling were Robshaw or Wood to get injured.

6.Vunipola
7.Robshaw or Wood - depending on which goes off
8.Morgan

We'd have some ball carrying there no doubt, but given that Billy and Morgan are guys who's fitness (though BVs has improved drastically) is questioned for the full 80 at Prem level we'd be struggling massively for work rate around the park. This would also impact on the rest of the pack as they'd all have to work exceptionally hard to try to keep up!

Hence I'd be much more comfortable with Kvesic/Haskell on the bench along with Attwood or Slater covering second row so we can bring some bulk on if needed.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola or Morgan
16.Hartley 17.Vunipola 18.Wilson 19.Attwood or Slater 20.Kvesic or Haskell

The above pack I really like the look of as the starting players have the agility and work rate to play a fast paced game looking to put width on the ball - with Manu out we really have to do that now! The bench then offer strong ball carriers across the entire front 5 for later in the game when the defence is tiring and Haskell or Kvesic would offer us the chance to mix things up in the backrow.

Like you say, Vunipola's fitness definitely seems to have come on a fair way, he hasn't played less than the full 80 so far this season.  It'll be interesting how that translates to international level come the AIs.  You would suspect to get the very best out of him he'd still be the one you'd be aiming to sub in an international though.  If you start Morgan I think you pretty much have to sub him by 60mins.  Either way it looks like our future backrow bench option will have to be a capable 8 and starting both of them is almost a non-starter unless we have a lock/backrow option on the bench like Lawes or Slater and leave both starting locks on for the duration when possible.

For those describing Youngs as a luxury it should be pointed out that against Hartley the other week Youngs fared better at both scrum and lineout. He also scrummaged and threw well against Ulster. He took time to get used to hooking but is in cracking form now.

His carrying and tackling offer the team a real impact and whilst he continues to produce the goods at the set piece he must be the obvious choice.

That is what i had heard Sam, that he took a bit to get used to the changes...but is now flying. He has to be starting hooker for the AI's.

Thought although the scrum was on top at the weekend he didn't seem to be hooking though but relying on the pack as a whole to retain possession but presumably you've seen him much more than me! Around the park he's one of the best.

I thought Youngs & Best struggled a little with their throw, it's still a weakness for Youngs but he's improving.

Sarge, aside from Hartley do we have a hooker that actually can throw?

Hartley can throw? I think he's also been inconsistent for England in that area too.

English hookers can never been the most consistent with lineout throwing in my opinion.

Inconsistent is at times being kind Beshocked  

Its a concern when you think thats a key part of a hookers role and how few of ours can actually do it.

Gray is pretty solid, but wouldnt be in my Senior squad anyway...

The side that Lancaster (and its the best we can do) is going to pick is as follows.....

In terms of the bench cover Wood and Robshaw can cover each other at 6 and 7 and Vunipola can cover 8 and 6 so that is it.


Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
36
Tomkins
Yarde
Ashton
Brown

Wilson Hartley Vunipola Launchbury Morgan Care Burns Foden