Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

I suppose there is an argument now that we have a production line (horrid metaphor) of youngsters that will be ready to step into the breach when the last lot retire.  I suppose we need the next lot of players to be turning 24 or 25 and having gained international experience by the time the likes of Corbisiero, Marler and Mako come to retire which could be in up to ten years (10 years!!!) in the latter’s case.

Could be 10 years for Marler too, he's only 23

Yeah I meant the two of them.

Sadly, the rate Corbs is going we might not even see him reach the 2015 WC...

I don't necessarily think we can lay the whole blame at Woodward's door. On the bench in the victory over the All Blacks on their turf was a certain Steve Borthwick. He went on to play over 50 tests for England.

Lewis Moody went on to amass over 70 caps, Phil Vickery, Martin Corry, Jonny Wilkinson etc.. I don't think we can underestimate the challenge of a sport turning professional. In 2003 there was almost no structure for bringing through the sort of players we benefit from now. Indeed had Woodward and not Andrew got the job in 2004/5 we might be looking at a different youth prospect again.

We also suffered from some premature retirements, Wilko went out for four years, Trevor Woodman retired early, Steve Thompson went early then returned. Some up and coming stars had to retire like Tom Rees, Richard Blaze Harry Ellis etc..

Ultimately that period was a dreadful combination of poor prior planning, poor management in certain quarters and genuine bad luck.

On topic, i'd have no problem with Mako or Marler starting. If Marler i'd like to see him with Wilson as much to make up the carrying options as for the scrummage. With Mako we might be better off with Dan Cole.

Don't know what the progress is on Attwood but OZ is looking like the usual suspects. I just hope Lancs doesn't select Billy V and expect him to be the sole yard-maker in the side. Tom Youngs' work notwithstanding.

Cumbrian wrote:I suppose there is an argument now that we have a production line (horrid metaphor) of youngsters that will be ready to step into the breach when the last lot retire.  I suppose we need the next lot of players to be turning 24 or 25 and having gained international experience by the time the likes of Corbisiero, Marler and Mako come to retire which could be in up to ten years (10 years!!!) in the latter’s case.

What's nice now is there is a raft of players we can point to in a variety of positions who may well come on very well in the intervening period. On the LH Nathan Catt at Bath has gone well when he's had opportunities. Some of those young Sale lads, Henry Thomas and the like. Scott Spurling at Sarries. Luke Cowan-Dickie who's now converted to hooker. Scott Wilson looks like a unit etc.. Most of these players are already getting some game time which is great to see.

Dom Barrow looks to have done exceedingly well for such a young lad in a very combative position.

Nathan Catt hardly gets any game time for us really, he firmly (and rightly so) behind Paul JAmes

Bathite wrote:Nathan Catt hardly gets any game time for us really, he firmly (and rightly so) behind Paul JAmes

I was under the impression he was younger than he is! Still looks like he could develop into a pretty good player though.

Young for a prop I guess, but that notion is being challenged by the likes of Corbs, Mako, Kitsoff, Feamaani (sp)

It's strange how we seem able to produce a number of players in certain positions - prop, hooker - but seem to have a genuine dearth in the big heavyweight second row and the genuine blindside.

Apart from Attwood we don't seem to be producing big second rows - historically we have had plenty in Dooley, Ackford, Bayfield, Johnson, etc.  We have lots of guys like Launchbury, Lawes, Garvey, Slater, etc who can flit between blindside and second row.

We also have a lot of 6 and a halfs - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, etc who again aren't hard yard blind sides.

Is there something about the English club game and the way that it is played that is affecting the production of big, bruising forwards?  Can't say that having watched the England sides of the 80's and 90's that we would be blown away so easily by a Welsh pack.

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I suppose there is an argument now that we have a production line (horrid metaphor) of youngsters that will be ready to step into the breach when the last lot retire.  I suppose we need the next lot of players to be turning 24 or 25 and having gained international experience by the time the likes of Corbisiero, Marler and Mako come to retire which could be in up to ten years (10 years!!!) in the latter’s case.

What's nice now is there is a raft of players we can point to in a variety of positions who may well come on very well in the intervening period. On the LH Nathan Catt at Bath has gone well when he's had opportunities. Some of those young Sale lads, Henry Thomas and the like. Scott Spurling at Sarries. Luke Cowan-Dickie who's now converted to hooker. Scott Wilson looks like a unit etc.. Most of these players are already getting some game time which is great to see.

Dom Barrow looks to have done exceedingly well for such a young lad in a very combative position.

Yes Barrow has been making excellent progress and is playing far more games than I expected to.  We've really been spoilt with the last 3-4 U20's generations but the current generation of U18's and U20's aren't recieving quite the same level of hype (i'd heard of players like Ford and Kvesic by the time they were in their mid teens instance).  I'm not sure we'll ever have as successful years as 2011/12 again.  Saying that there are definitely some lads worth looking out for like Maro Itoje, Lewis Boyce and Stuart Townsend.

I don't think SCW did anything wrong in terms of a legacy. He had been in the job for 7 years and his goal was always the RWC. After that you could see he simply didn't have the drive anymore.

In 2002-3 if you said which players would make it to 2007 legitimately (not those at a stretch like Dillaglio) you would say

Woodman, Thompson, Vickery, Kay, Moody, Worsley, Corry, Duncombe, Wilkinson, Simpson-Daniel, Ollie Smith, Tindall, Lewsey.

Now thats 13 class players which would have been sure things to be there or there abouts 4 years later. Give the number of players you'd expect to come through in that 4 years period and you would say England were all set to maintain their place at the top table.

Injury took chaps like Woodman, Thompson, Tindall, Wilkinson out of the equation. Awful circumstances on Nick Duncombe and guys like Simpson-Daniel and Smith were the only ones you can say were properly mis-managed post SCW.

In some ways it was done by the issue England still has today where the clubs and national team are very much separate entities. Ollie Smith instead of being made starting centre was thrown out into the wing, Simpson-Daniel was never nutured into the game and was wasted.

Apart from Attwood we don't seem to be producing big second rows - historically we have had plenty in Dooley, Ackford, Bayfield, Johnson, etc.  We have lots of guys like Launchbury, Lawes, Garvey, Slater, etc who can flit between blindside and second row.

Nplp,
I thought Charlie Matthews at Quins was a monster but had a couple of injuries this season, and dont Exter have a young lad coming through who is 6'10 or 11?

Garvey isnt small - he must be hitting 6'6 and 20 stone? Thats a second row for me...only he has decent enough agility to play 6. Most people on here know i think he should have been in the England camp for several years now.

I think launchbury could bulk up aswell...he's young and whilst he is athletic and agile he's still about 18 and a half stone...which i suspect will go up.

So there are people there...No.6 i would agree is a little short of hard yarders...but then was Richard Hill (possibly considered our best ever 6) one of those? I wouldnt say so.

nlpnlp wrote:It's strange how we seem able to produce a number of players in certain positions - prop, hooker - but seem to have a genuine dearth in the big heavyweight second row and the genuine blindside.

Apart from Attwood we don't seem to be producing big second rows - historically we have had plenty in Dooley, Ackford, Bayfield, Johnson, etc.  We have lots of guys like Launchbury, Lawes, Garvey, Slater, etc who can flit between blindside and second row.

We also have a lot of 6 and a halfs - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, etc who again aren't hard yard blind sides.

Is there something about the English club game and the way that it is played that is affecting the production of big, bruising forwards?  Can't say that having watched the England sides of the 80's and 90's that we would be blown away so easily by a Welsh pack.

I think that's fairly spot on. I wouldn't say that pack was blown away easily by a Welsh pack and were the game at Twickers I think it would've been a different story.

There isn't a 6 bar Carl Fearns who's in that SA mould. What we could do with is a Jerome Kaino type of player. I don't know why that seems to be the case, one would expect that with some lighter-weight flankers you'd have a crop of heavier weight second rows but it doesn't seem to be the case. Perhaps there's more of an emphasis on work-rate and 'actions' in the game than creating go-forward?

I'd agree with fa0019 that bad luck with injuries and early retirements after 03 reeked havoc with those sides as much as poor planning. You can start to make a half decent side out of players who were badly affected by injury or drastic loss of form that could have continued the sides legacy on.

1.Woodman
2.Thompson
3.
4.Blaze
5.
6.
7.Rees
8.Forrester

9.Ellis
10.Wilkinson

11.Could argue Cohen and Ballshaw's drastic loss of form and Robinson's early retirement could not have easily been predicted
12.Abbott
13.Smith
14.JSD
15.

I'm sure there are a fair few I've forgotten that could be added to that as well!

Back to the present, from the little I saw of the Wasps game yesterday Wade looked to be having a strong game and must be pushing Ashton for the 14 shirt even in Lancaster's mind. A back three of 11.Yarde 14.Wade 15.Brown has a really good mix of pace and power plus the nous of Brown at the back. The other thing I like at Brown at FB is the he's good at bringing his wingers into play from kick returns which with Yarde and Wade could be lethal.

At 13 I'd be looking at Trinder or Eastmond from those picked. Alongside Twelvetrees either of those should ensure the ball actually gets to the wings and with Tuilagi out I'm desperate for us to start looking at attacking the wider channels so I'll happily sacrifice a heavy ball carrier in the certre to achieve that. When needed the likes of Twelvetrees, Yarde, Mako and Morgan/Billy can carry into heavy traffic to create momentum anyway and if we're attacking wider hopefully the need to crash it up the middle will be significantly less!

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Trinder/Eastmond
14.Wade
15.Brown

Monster performance from courteney Lawes against the ospreys, must start for me now given the time attwood has had out the game, and the stature of that showing. Very good show from hartley and wood as well, these guys are on fire at the moment.

I wouldn't fancy an engine room of Lawes/Parling

Great performance by Courtney Lawes today would definitely push him into contention for an England starting place next to Parling.

BBC sport are reporting Lawes made twenty tackles, not too bad...

Lawes & Parling would struggle as a combo, neither carry or are great at scrummaging. We need a lump in there somewhere.

Lawes is competing with Parling for the 5 jersey imo

Lawes doesn't carry? Could've sworn I saw him over the gain line numerous times today! In fact today if say he put in the perfect performance as a 6!!!

I seen him take the ball into contact them get driven back time and again.

Lawes isn't a carrier.

He made a grand total of 2m in that game to back up my point.

Lawes off the bench I think. What's happened to Attwood, he seemed to have started the season very well and then all has gone a bit quiet.

The Launchbury and Parling combination has worked previously though I'd like to see Slater come in alongside Attwood for one test, unikely though that is.

Not sure Ben Youngs is in selectable form at the minute.

Lawes has got his body angles sorted out when taking the ball into contact, he is much better this season than last and is making a big impact. Add to this his ball handling which is superior to most locks, his lineout ability and best of all his amazing tackling, not just making tackles but driving ball carriers backwards. He must be in a position to be one of the three locks in the AI Squad. At 18.5 stone he is hardly a lightweight either. By the time he is 25, he is going to be a monster.

I am a Parling fan, even he does have the misfortune to play for Tigers, but Lawes new found ability to dominate his area the lineout allows England to play an Attwood as well and in a couple of years time have a monster 2nd row paring that are both mobile, ball carrying and lineout savey tackling machines.

With natural weight increase for what are now young men, we could have a monster pack in 2015

Corbs, Youngs/Hartley/Webber, Cole (av 18.5st)
Attwood, Lawes (av 19.5 st)
Wood, Morgan/Vunipola, Robshaw (av 18st)

All mobile, all ball handlers/carriers, all good tacklers.

Roll on 2015.

I'm unsure Lawes will put this weight on, if anything he's toned down over the years rather than put on. Seeing him stood next to Day you can see how slight he is.

Lawes is never going to be a monster carrier, but he could become a Matfield type player if he focuses on the line out.

Lawes was very good today, for once a player actually deserved the hyperbole Harrison and Barnes spouted. I'd still put him on the bench though, with Attwood (grunt) & Launchbury (athleticism/skill) starting if fit, even if they are just coming back from a break. Have to be honest I just don't see it with Parling, seems like another Borthwick to me, i.e. a solid technician but really just a good club man short of true international class.

Lets be honest though, this is English rugby we're talking about. Does anyone here think any of Attwood/Launchbury/Lawes/Parling won't get injured before the AIs? In a couple of weeks we'll probably be asking if Simon Shaw is still playing.

England have plenty of quality locks not in the squad Bris. Kitchener, Slater, Kruis, Deacon, Barrow, Skivington and Garvey are all capable of being called up and doing a job. Given the form of Slater so far this season he really should be in the squad. If anything I'd like to see us blood a new player or two during this AI period, specifically in the second row, backrow and centre (not like we'll have much choice). We could do with some expanded options going into the six nations.

Brown and Foden both very good today by the sounds of it, anyone got any more details as that would be a hard pick?

Lets be honest though, this is English rugby we're talking about. Does anyone here think any of Attwood/Launchbury/Lawes/Parling won't get injured before the AIs? In a couple of weeks we'll probably be asking if Simon Shaw is still playing.

Dont the players jopin up tomorrow in the training camp for the Ais?

I do get what you mean though about players getting injured. All ways seem,s too happen just before the internationals game's start.

For anyone looking at stats from the weekend's games, wait until Monday afternoon before using them to verify your opinion.  Current stats are generated live; the tapes will be reviewed and the stats adjusted for accuracy, errors, omissions and mistaken identities made during the game.

Formerly, I was being a bit tongue in cheek (only a bit mind!) about a dearth of options. I rate Kitchener every time I see him, and Barrow is a good prospect too. Don't know a great deal about Slater to be honest, and hope I'm not being obtuse, but by Deacon do you mean Louis? Got to say I've never rated him. Totally agree with you about looking at options, especially in the back row, 7 in particular. Looking at the best teams in the world, we cannot keep picking blindsides and saying "oh, he's really a 6.5". There is no such position!

Chequered, if it was based purely on today, I would go with Brown, don't remember him making any mistakes at all, whilst Foden did drop one or two high balls. Brown, as he always seems to in the past couple of seasons, made some strong runs. Personally though, and bearing in mind the class v form argument, I prefer Foden, though its a tight call.

Majestic, talking about injuries, I sat down with a friend to watch Falcons v Bath, i.e the very first game of the new AP seasons. Within 30 minutes Eastmond, one of our brightest prospects, got injured. First game of the season! Is it any wonder we resort to gallows humour?!

Actually, think Brown did miss one tackle leading to a Clermont try I think, but on the whole, reckon he outplayed Foden today

On the Quins site they said he missed Fofana

Can't see past Brown for the 15 shirt myself.  I rate Foden very highly, he's been my preferred option in previous seasons and he was good today, but on current form Brown is a step above and the sort of rock we need at the back given the number of changes expected 11-14.

Regarding Lawes, a very impressive performance the last few weeks, a quality lineout option (3 steals last week against a Castres containing Richie Gray), carried well and showed some nice handling touches.  He's fighting it out with Launchbury for a position in the team in my opinion given neither are a lineout leader though.  Tough call to make on current form, I probably prefer Launchbury overall still at the moment, but where I might opt to starting Lawes is if we need a search & destroy option in 2nd row, which I suspect we might against NZ.

Agreed on Brown, in the past I've seen players like Goode as keeping the shirt warm for Foden (my preferred choice too) but Brown is making himself a certain pick.

I was listening to the Chiefs' game on the radio earlier and the commentators said that Johnson limped off with a thigh injury.

I believe Johnson came off with the same injury in the previous game.... still Lancaster picked him....Tomkins comes back from injury, no form and 10 minutes against Toulouse and Lancaster picks him.....Trinder still out injured but what the hell Lancaster picks him.....By utter bloody fluke Lancaster may just pick the right combination of Twelvetrees & Burrell, though what do you know 12 3's cried off with a dodgy hamstring.....you can't make this up.....don't even mention Eastmond.

BUT THIS IS THE RUB....regardless of so much of the above analysis to me it looks as if we will lose to both Oz and NZ - where the hell does this leave us? If we lose to Argentina then absolutely Lancaster MUST walk......Oz and NZ and the knives have to be out, but still so much is contend able. The teams performance is everything, narrow losses can be accepted if real progress is made, however the ice is very thin as far as I'm concerned and it’s about time everyone connected, in whatever way, with English rugby realised the seriousness of our situation...This coaching team must now deliver or heads must role.

marler(corbs),Hartley(webber)Cole,
Parling,Lawes
Wood,Billy V,Robshaw
Youngs, Farrell,
May, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade
Brown

Mako V, Youngs, Wilson
Launchberry
Morgan
Care
Burns
Yarde

I've missed your utter pessimism.

I thought Foden had a rather muted performance at the weekend, there was no real sizzle to his play. Brown was again Quins best player and Goode looked good from what I saw of the Sarries game. Brown really deserves the 15 shirt this Autumn.

Corbs/Marler, T Youngs, Cole
Launchbury, Parling
Robshaw, Vunipola, Wood
Care, Farrell
Eastmond, Twelvetrees
Yarde, Brown, Ashton

Bench - Vunipola, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes/Attwood, Youngs, Flood, Burrell.

Bris, Slater as in Ed Slater the England Saxon. Probably been Tigers best player so far this season. Big lad has been playing out of position at 6 due to injuries but can do all the gritty work as well as offer some pace and good hands (see the last Tigers try from the weekend or the winning try vs Saints from a couple of years back, both Slater assists). He will partner Kitchener in the Tigers engine room for years. Re Louis Deacon he's an extremely reliable second row enforcer, if we had an injury crisis he could prop up our set piece and tight game until more mobile options became available again.

I wasn't overly impressed with Foden either, haven't been for a long time.

If your looking for the future of Englands second rows...step forward Dom Barrow.

The kid is is already playing some class stuff....and he has a brain aswell...future captain.

pessimism/realism......you're very welcome

Pessimism. Welcome to sarcasm by the way.

Reading the reviews about Lawes, indeed the particular referene was made to his lineout work.

Its a scary thought but nearly all England fans on here have agreed that should Lawes become that lineout king...he could be a big weapon for England, as he then becomes the lineout guy with serious physical edge.
Its nice to see he is progressing in that area...and seems to be staying relatively injury free for a change.

I think Lawes would be a great player, a standout player if he chose 1 position... 4 or 5 and then developed accordingly... but not a 4.5.

The issue with Lawes and Parling though is their effectiveness - the obvious concern is can they break/dominate the gainline? Are they muscular enough to achieve this?

Victor Matfield was never a breakdown king but his lineouts ruled for 10 years.

He wasn't a prolific taker of the ball in the lineout but he was the smartest operator, he would call on gaps, on markings and was hardly ever stolen from.

If England or anyone achieved the similar out of a 5 then it wouldn't matter how strong the rest of their game was, if they could achieve the above then they would be worth their weight in gold.

I just cant see Lawes as a 4....hes never going to be a Johnson, a Botha, Attwood, Deacon type player.
However he has ALL the attributes to be a fantastic 5...the lineout king...with the additional benefit of still having a serious physical edge. What a benefit for England.

KingE,
Im not sure that Parling / Lawes role is essentially to dominate the gainline. Let Morgan, Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Wood, Robshaw etc do that. Leave to Parling / Lawes to dominate the lineout. Parling is never going to smash and carry through crowds...but he does carry well as he runs in to the gaps...when in space.

But judging by this weekends performances Lawes and Wood were both very impressive in ALL areas.

Its good to see our Second rows hitting some form though...

If England or anyone achieved the similar out of a 5 then it wouldn't matter how strong the rest of their game was, if they could achieve the above then they would be worth their weight in gold..

FA, we have one...he's called Steve Borthwick.