Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

is he really that good?

If so then why is Parling chosen ahead of him?

England had the worst lineout in the 6N in terms of success rates in 2013, if they could improve it and take more steals from the opposition it would make a big difference.

How else does a chap like Parling contirbute compared?

Because the rest of Borthwicks game is deemed below par..below standard for international level. His lineout is right up there though...

Certainly doesnt bother Sarries about the rest of his game.

given Englands issues when Croft is not in the side its amazing that someone at least of the above quality is not considered.

Lineout prowess such as this almost seems to come with experience, Lawes is still relatively young for a lock so this may still come. Who calls the lineout at Saints currently?

fa0019 it's because Borthwick is not a very good ball carrier. He's also not particularly big so it means that you sacrifice a bit in the pack in terms of power.

Parling is a better ball carrier than Borthwick but I don't think he's much bigger than Borthwick.

Saracens have struggled a bit in the physicality stakes in the front five against the really big packs like Leicester,Toulouse,Toulon and Saints. and part of this could be down to Borthwick harsh as it sounds. As lineout operator he's excellent though and he ran the lineout incredibly well vs Toulouse. It's a difficult balancing act.

To accommodate a player like Borthwick you need a monster 2nd row to partner him as well as a monster pack. Matfield had Bakkies Botha and the big South African pack.

Surely Lawes will get the nod, I'd even consider him at 6 again, he seems to have seriously upped his work rate this season and looks a bit more Powerfull carrying around the field

1.Vunipola
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola
9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Burrell
14.Ashton
15.Brown

What about Launchbury?

Tiger/Chief looks like a very interesting team. Still have my reservations about Lawes but if you think he's been playing well this season I would agree to give him a go.

Got to say I like the rest of the team. I know people will say Wade instead of Ashton but Ashton played well vs Toulouse and I think has edged back ahead. Three weeks ago I would have said Wade.

Lawes/Parling would get hammered as a pairing, we'd need a huge backrow to accomodate for their lack of grunt.

Lawes at 6??? We seen what happened with that last time, he's a lock.

I've seen nothing to suggest Lawes is a powerful carrier either, I'm unsure if we watch the same game tbh.

Sgt Pooly how would you fix the 2nd row conundrum then?

Anyone else noticed Ashton has Bulked quite a bit during his summer off, he seems to have a new found confidence in the tackle, not sure if the two are related,

I think it sends the wrong message out if Lawes doesn't make the team, similarly I think Morgan eventually will bail the 8 shirt but Vunipola has been superior this season so deserves to start.

Can Launchbury and Lawes play together??? Lawes has been middle jumping at Northampton no???

I'd get Lawes involved but as a line out runner. Get him training with the squad, get him to learn the running of an Int line out and see if he's much cop. He's running it at Saints but Int is a different kettle of fish.

I'd stick with Parling at 5 for now and if fit Launchbury at 4, if not Attwood and if not Slater.

We massivley lack carriers in the pack, why compound this with two locks who offer next to nothing in terms of ball carrying.

Going forward:

4. Launchbury/Attwood/Slater
5. Parling/Lawes/Attwood

Attwood is a bit of a strange one as he's a decent line out caller, him and Launchbury would be an interesting combo.

The funny thing is from a few years back...Attwood and Lawes were everyones dream team...could we be about to see it soonish...

Launchbury and Parling will start...dont think theres much doubt about that.

Christian Day is the lineout brains at Saints. Not entirely sure who runs the lineout when it's Lawes & Manoa in the 2nd row together, I've heard Wood has a hand in it.

Yeah i thought it was Wood.

I think Lawes is used to disrupt the opposition throw because of his athleticism, but doesn't actually run it himself (but is why he catches the eye in this area). However, Lawes has been working with Day and Wood for four years now, surely he is being groomed for the position? I get that it is probably quite complicated but it isn’t rocket science, if you spend every day drilling in it you could become fit to lead it?

Cumbrian, he doesnt even have to run the lineout per say. Just be the premier jumper...if say Wood is capable of running it well...he can make the calls.

GF - If he is also say hypothetically the England captain do we want him to also run the lineout? In that situation I think it should be someone else.

Why would he be captain with Robshaw there? Hypothetically?

timhen wrote:Christian Day is the lineout brains at Saints.  Not entirely sure who runs the lineout when it's Lawes & Manoa in the 2nd row together, I've heard Wood has a hand in it.

Lawes runs the Saints line out as of this season, I read an interview with him. He also ran the line in Argentina which I was quite surprised with.

If he can nail the "5" position I think he'll make it his own as he's a better all round player than Parling imo.

Thought Attwood ran the lineout if you're talking about this summer?

I did too, Lawes states he did though. I'll try and dig the article out.

Just checked cos I thought I was losing my memory but Attwood and Launchbury started each game. Lawes must have taken over when he came on which is good planning by Lancaster if thats the case (for ongoing depth of options).

This was the article but I'm not a subscriber:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article3867558.ece

the wrong players are getting injured. the wrong players are finding form and losing it. We're doomed to a 3-0 defeat.

On top form i would say Lawes is considerably better player than Parling (lineout possibly excepted for the minute). However Parling is consistant. Lawes has been so eratic...good performances, bad ones, reckless decisions, injury proneness.

IF he can show more maturity, consistantly playing to the level we have witnessed and can master the lineout...then he would be a top class 5.

Lets see if he can show some consistancy...that the players like Launchbury have...playing consistantly top class all last season and near enough again this season.

Triangulation wrote:

the wrong players are getting injured. the wrong players are finding form and losing it. We're doomed to a 3-0 defeat.

By chance Tiangulation did you sell everything you owed and invest in a bunker, a shotgun and water purifying tablets on the eve of the millennium bug??? No reason

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This was the article but I'm not a subscriber:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article3867558.ece

I can't read the article, but I've done a bit of digging

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10093198/Northampton-lock-Courtney-Lawes-insists-he-is-more-than-just-an-enforcer-as-he-looks-to-reignite-his-England-career.html

The challenge now is to add more facets to his game and that has included learning to run a line-out. “I am going to keep hitting and hopefully keep carrying the ball as well but I am going to add as many strings to my bow as I can,” Lawes said. “I have started very lightly to call line-outs. I am 24 now, a little bit older so I feel I can add things to my game.

I think that comment was at the end if last season Cumbrian, the Times article was a few weeks back.

He definitely states he's running the Saints line out and says he did in Argentina too.

He has improved dramatically in this area since last season, lets see if it continues.

Yeah, article was from back in June. It seems consistent with what you're saying. It would be great to think of Lawes as being the lineout option with a bit of beef beside him. It could really bring back the biff.  

So far i'd say the form side from that EPS after two rounds of Euro action would be:

Corbs/Mako, Hartley, Cole
Lawes, ?
Wood, Robshaw, ?
Dickson, Farrel
Ashton, Burrel, Twelvetrees, Yarde, Brown

Looks pretty close to the team I expect to run out against Oz, only differences will probably be at 2, the centre's and 9. 5 and 8 are questionable at the moment too, Parling isn't looking up to much and to my mind wouldn't do well alongside the far more on form Lawes. Morgan still looks off colour.

If Lawes can get his lineout calling up to international standard it would be brilliant. As good as Parling is, I wouldn't like to think that only one of Launchbury and Lawes has a future as a starter.

Marler
Youngs/Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Lawes
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan/Vunipola

If you picked that pack then by my reckoning you've got seven players who tackle and hit rucks with great intensity, plus Ben Morgan, who I thought got through a lot of work against Munster, even if he didn't break any really big tackles. Hopefully he's starting to get his legs back a bit this season.

They can all carry and offload as well

How's Mako coping with the new scrum laws? I've been struggling to keep up with a lot of the Prem action this season so haven't seen much of him unfortunately.

Given the packs lack of carrying options and the injury to Corbs he'd be my choice a LH if he's coping OK in the scrum. His carrying is a notch above Marler and his sheer bulk adds a lot of what we've been missing of late.

1.Vunipola
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchberry
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

To my eyes that offers about as good a mix of work rate in attack and defence, carrying and set piece solidity as we're going to get at the moment. On the bench I'd then look to get real impact with bruising carriers and physical players.

16.Hartley or Webber 17.Marler 18.Wilson 19.Attwood or Lawes 20.Billy V

How has lawes consistency been this season...or was this a one off performance so far?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How has lawes consistency been this season...or was this a one off performance so far?

Not seen much myself, but commentators were talking up his recent form before the game yesterday.

Didn't see the match but I heard some say he was near as good against castres the week before, that his lineout work was especially good in that game.

Any news on Hartley's ankle injury? He looked in pretty good shape.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How has lawes consistency been this season...or was this a one off performance so far?

Not seen much myself, but commentators were talking up his recent form before the game yesterday.

He's pretty much been like this all season, in a great vein of form at the moment. Definitely the starting lock for England, just a question of who partners him.

If thats the case then fair enough..he could be worth his spot. Id play launchbury beside him, as Attwood wont be match fit. Unless Slater is showing his form from last season aswell...which i hear he has been playing well.

1. It is Launchbury he is not a variety of "berry"

2. We cannot even agree on anything near our starting XV

3. The aussies are going to beat us.

Oh woe the doom merchant is upon us...oh woe...oh woe....oh woe...

PS I spelt it correctly...Launchbury...and i think most of the XV is pretty clear.

Geordie

1. A general point not directed at you but at the many others who cannot or will not get a grip on this.

2. I have seen such variance in all the Xvs posted it is is making me feel sea sick. Not just on these boards but also by all the various "experts" in the media.

3. Given 2 above and given the improvements being made by the aussies we're going to go down to them and of course to the ABs who are in another league frankly.

4. The Pumas coach, Phelan has resigned with immediate effect. What impact will this have? Often for a couple of games in galvanises a side. Will Graham Henry take over as a care taker for the AIs? The Pumas just got even more dangerous whatever happens.

It doesn't matter that a country with millions of people all following certain players more closely have different choices though does it. Lancaster and his coaches will already have an idea of who will start that 1st game and subsequent ones. We have so many players available or performing at present makes it pretty difficult to call the team as we're not in the know. The Aus team has the same weaknesses as they had previously so it's up to us to exploit them. The ABs are in a different class but are beatable and we should aim (though not necessarily expect) to beat them again. The Pumas will be beaten.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It doesn't matter that a country with millions of people all following certain players more closely have different choices though does it. Lancaster and his coaches will already have an idea of who will start that 1st game and subsequent ones. We have so many players available or performing at present makes it pretty difficult to call the team as we're not in the know. The Aus team has the same weaknesses as they had previously so it's up to us to exploit them. The ABs are in a different class but are beatable and we should aim (though not necessarily expect) to beat them again. The Pumas will be beaten.

Good point but i think that it is indicative that we have so many different Xvs flying around.

Our 2 most missed forwards frlom the Wales game are Corbs is injured out of it.

Morgan has completely lost form and fitness.

The Captain's side is losing game after game and it is undermining the captaincy.

Our no.1 hooker (Youngs i think) is not currently hooking the ball for his club in contravention of the spirit and intent of the new scrum laws. Cole comes from that same club.

Cole has peaked.

Mako got done over by the wallabies at scrum time with the Lions.

Tomkins is most people's front runner for 13 but cant even get a game for his club in the lead up to the AIs.

Kvesic, Burns and other Gloucester England players (all numbered 6 of higher) have been shafted by their club tight 5.

There will be more injuries.

Worst of all the basic skill levels remain poor.

Good point but i think that it is indicative that we have so many different Xvs flying around

.
Most of the XV's are very similar with the odd difference, due to personal opinions. Considering the vast number of players available and coming through i think we're all remarkably similar of opinion.

Our 2 most missed forwards frlom the Wales game are Corbs is injured out of it.Morgan has completely lost form and fitness

Corbs is looking increasingly vulnerable and im concerned about how long his career may last. For that reason we MUST give our understudies some game time against the best in the world.  

The Captain's side is losing game after game and it is undermining the captaincy.

Thats not the captains fault if the entire team arent on fire...they are also missing serious bulk lost through Johnson and Kohn...not Robshaws fault.

Our no.1 hooker (Youngs i think) is not currently hooking the ball for his club in contravention of the spirit and intent of the new scrum laws. Cole comes from that same club.

Youngs found the new laws very difficult...but is now on fire...and playing great stuff!

Cole has peaked.

Really? Ive never heard such tosh.

Mako got done over by the wallabies at scrum time with the Lions.

No he didnt...he had a 30 min spell where he had a torrid spell. The rest of his performances were as part of a front row that had the aussies in their pocket. Only real issue with Mako is his fitness - can he last 80 mins.

Tomkins is most people's front runner for 13 but cant even get a game for his club in the lead up to the AIs.

No he's not...Eastmond v Burrell are possibly most peoples choices.

Kvesic, Morgan,Burns and other Gloucester England players (all numbered 6 of higher) have been shafted by their club tight 5.

maybe so...but at present, Kvesic is behind Robshaw, Burns behind Farrell etc. All those mentioned have very strong competition - England have options. We shall judge each player on their performances in the England team.

There will be more injuries.

Undoubtedly...but we have options. We will also have people finding form like Kvesic, Morgan, Tom Youngs improving game by game, Mako's scrummaging not as bad as peple actually make out. etc

Worst of all the basic skill levels remain poor.

Really? i dont see that at all. Give me evidence to justfiy your claim?

Care and Youngs not in great form at 9

Perhaps the more limited Dickson is the form 9 ?

"I have seen such variance in all the Xvs posted it is is making me feel sea sick"

Perhaps you shouldn't come on these types of sites if peoples opinion make you feel this way. It is after all a site based on peoples opinion of rugby and sport in general.

What Geordie said.

Does anyone else think it could well be 12T and Trinder? Already know each others game, Trinder brings something different to the team.......