Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

Geordiefalcon I hope you are wrong. I wouldn't want Eastmond in the centres just yet.

little badger that centre partnership would be ok.

The club 'harmony' in the midfield could be a positive and Trider's pace would act as a good foil to Twelvetrees' power. Not sure how the rest of the backline would look? Something like?

09. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell
11. Chris Ashton
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Henry Trider
14. Marland Yarde
15. Mike Brown

There would be a decent amount of pace with Youngs, Ashton, Trinder and Yarde but it would be very inexperienced.

I think pretty much whatever backline we put out is going to be farily inexperienced Cumbrian.

Too true, maybe they'll take the pitch without the weights of previous expectations on them and just show the world what they can do?

Well thats often the positives of youngsters...they dont have the same fears and just go out to play. We shall see...be interesting to see who is picked.

Sheridan
Hartley
Cole
Borthwick
Deacon
Waldrom
Haskell
Easter
Youngs
Wilkinson
Ashton
Banahan
Tindall
Cueto
Monye

Lawes' form has been good in all the games i've seen him play this season. He even went well in the pouring rain against Quins at the start, not normally conditions with which you would associate him. On form, yes I think he should start.

The issue is always where he plays. The answer to all of our concerns is Attwood. To play 4. C Lawes 5. D Atwood gives us the best of both worlds and could become a world class locking combination. The problem is we've got guys like Parling in the squad, a Lion with leadership qualities etc..

As fa and the like have pointed out though we had the worst line-out stats in the 6N last season and that was with the best line-out jumping pack international rugby has ever seen. Bolstered again in the Wales game. I worry about Parling's ability to run the line at a potentially world class level. That needs to be his MO, if not he doesn't offer enough in the rest of his game to keep his place.

My team, as form etc.. currently stands would be:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. C Lawes
5. D Attwood
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. L Dickson
10. O Farrell
11. M Yarde
12. B Twevetrees
13. K Eastmond
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. D Hartley 17. M Vunipola 18. D Cole 19. J Launchbury 20. B Vunipola 21. B Youngs 22. F Burns 23. B Foden

Dickson is the form 9 in the AP and HEC so far. Youngs has looked all at sea at times for Tigers and Mele has been the better player for them. Care looked good at the start of the season but doesn't bring his pack in to play as well as Dickson at the moment. I've never been a big Dickson fan but he's put in some excellent performances passing and kicking for Saints so far.

Yarde, Ashton and Brown are no-brainers for me. I would like Wade but wouldn't want him to start in such an inexperienced back-line. Foden on the bench offers pace, impact and experience.

Eastmond just has something very special going on and i'd like to see him get a run in the centre. Tomkins and Trinder are only just coming back from injury. With a desire to up the attack Eastmond offers running and distribution to support that.

Farrell has the temprament and form at present. He looked good against a strong Tolouse side. Burns on the bench for impact.

I'd still like to see Wilson get a run, Cole has improved in the last two games for Tigers. Youngs is a better carrier but Hartley has looked sharp under pressure so far. Marler or Vunipola it's a tough call, he's slightly better technically at present for me.

Locks I have already mentioned, Launchbury to come on who's been playing very well. Morgan over Billy V is the only controversial one. Morgan will go well in a strong pack and has better hands than Billy V who lost the ball in contact too many times against Tolouse.

Chjw131 wrote:Lawes' form has been good in all the games i've seen him play this season. He even went well in the pouring rain against Quins at the start, not normally conditions with which you would associate him. On form, yes I think he should start.

The issue is always where he plays. The answer to all of our concerns is Attwood. To play 4. C Lawes 5. D Atwood gives us the best of both worlds and could become a world class locking combination. The problem is we've got guys like Parling in the squad, a Lion with leadership qualities etc..

As fa and the like have pointed out though we had the worst line-out stats in the 6N last season and that was with the best line-out jumping pack international rugby has ever seen. Bolstered again in the Wales game. I worry about Parling's ability to run the line at a potentially world class level. That needs to be his MO, if not he doesn't offer enough in the rest of his game to keep his place.

My team, as form etc.. currently stands would be:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. C Lawes
5. D Attwood
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. L Dickson
10. O Farrell
11. M Yarde
12. B Twevetrees
13. K Eastmond
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. D Hartley 17. M Vunipola 18. D Cole 19. J Launchbury 20. B Vunipola 21. B Youngs 22. F Burns 23. B Foden

Dickson is the form 9 in the AP and HEC so far. Youngs has looked all at sea at times for Tigers and Mele has been the better player for them. Care looked good at the start of the season but doesn't bring his pack in to play as well as Dickson at the moment. I've never been a big Dickson fan but he's put in some excellent performances passing and kicking for Saints so far.

Yarde, Ashton and Brown are no-brainers for me. I would like Wade but wouldn't want him to start in such an inexperienced back-line. Foden on the bench offers pace, impact and experience.

Eastmond just has something very special going on and i'd like to see him get a run in the centre. Tomkins and Trinder are only just coming back from injury. With a desire to up the attack Eastmond offers running and distribution to support that.

Farrell has the temprament and form at present. He looked good against a strong Tolouse side. Burns on the bench for impact.

I'd still like to see Wilson get a run, Cole has improved in the last two games for Tigers. Youngs is a better carrier but Hartley has looked sharp under pressure so far. Marler or Vunipola it's a tough call, he's slightly better technically at present for me.

Locks I have already mentioned, Launchbury to come on who's been playing very well. Morgan over Billy V is the only controversial one. Morgan will go well in a strong pack and has better hands than Billy V who lost the ball in contact too many times against Tolouse.  

Excellent

I'd give Wilson a go vs Aus, he's never really looked anything more than solid at international level (summer tour vs second string Argies aside). Let's see what he's got. Cole has played quite a bit of rugby already and we'll need him for NZ.

Not sure how Ben Morgan gets in if your basing it on form?

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd give Wilson a go vs Aus, he's never really looked anything more than solid at international level (summer tour vs second string Argies aside). Let's see what he's got. Cole has played quite a bit of rugby already and we'll need him for NZ.

Not sure how Ben Morgan gets in if your basing it on form?

"Morgan over Billy V is the only controversial one. Morgan will go well in a strong pack and has better hands than Billy V who lost the ball in contact too many times against Tolouse."

It's at the end of the post. Billy V on form absolutely but he has a habit of losing the ball going in to contact at times and is still very inexperienced. At present Morgan is a better all-round footballer. His form at the moment is difficult to gauge effectively. He had a poor opening game and hasn't really started until the Munster game where he was industrious in a depleted side.

He's played very well for England in the past and i'd like to see how he goes against OZ. If he seems poor or off the pace Billy V is on the bench and can push for a start in the Argie game.

Official RFU @Official_RFU 2m
Players released back to @premrugby clubs (10): Attwood, Burns, Burrell, Care, Eastmond, Foden, Goode, Johnson, Kvesic, Wade #EnglandRugby

Can take a fair bit from that I reckon CJ.

6. Wood/Vuinipola
7. Robshaw/Wood
8. Morgan

10. Farrell

11. Yarde
12. 36
13. Tomkins/Trinder
14. Ashton
15. Brown

Makes me worried about who is covering 11-15 on the bench...

I reckon Tomkins is a cert for 13 then, Trinder still carrying a bit of a knock? Dickson stays so he could be on the bench? Brown at FB with Ashton and Yarde etc.. Hence I think we'll see

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. G Parling
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw (C)
8. B Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. O Farrell
11. M Yarde
12. B Twelvetrees
13. J Tomkins
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. D Hartley 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola 21. L Dickson 22. T Flood? 23. B Foden

Not a bad side although doesn't go any real way to addressing the issues of the 6N where we seemed underpowered. Billy V would be a good addition to the bench but my worry is reliance on just two carriers in that pack.

Backline looks just about right. I think Yarde has played a fair bit at 13 so could cover the centre spot with Foden providing a good deal of cover from the bench. I'd be surprised to see Trinder on the bench if he doesn't start. Lee Dickson offering a different dimension from the bench.

Pack carriers are my only pressing concern.

Was hoping we might have gotten Yarde back to terrorise Falcons this week!!!  

Also an odd one re: Flood. Hasn't been in amazing form, bar the last 20 in Round 1 HEC. Does he start? Make the bench ahead of Burns? Seems harsh as Burns has been going fairly well behind a poor Glos pack and played very well on the Argie tour.

Trinder can't cover back three I presume?

Ozzy3213 wrote:Was hoping we might have gotten Yarde back to terrorise Falcons this week!!!  

I'll take that!

Burns has looked pretty poor in the games I've seen, I'd prefer Flood personally.

Flood and Burns have both struggled at times this season with Flood looking short of match fitness for much of it. Not a great decision to have to make between the two as both could do with more time in the Jeff really.

The only player I'd seriously contest being sent home is Wade as he simply has a much better all round skill set than Ashton. Quicker, better hands, more agile, better footwork and marginally better defence. Other than power when running directly into contact (something Ashton does too much of IMO) he's already a better player and should only improve so I find that disappointing.

Others I'd argue would be Attwood and Care but in fairness Lawes and Dickson have showed very strong form. Foden would have been good as well to have some more cover for the back 3 mind.

1.Vunipola 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Trinder 14.Ashton 15.Brown

That's what I'd select from those remaining.

To be fair, there is no England game this week, so those sent back are not necessarily out of contention. It might just be felt they need some game time, and they have an opportunity to really stick their hand up for selection.

Ozzy3213 wrote:To be fair, there is no England game this week, so those sent back are not necessarily out of contention.  It might just be felt they need some game time, and they have an opportunity to really stick their hand up for selection.

Spot on!

Come on chaps you should know the score by now.

These days all players are treated according to invidual requirements re fitness, game time etc

Some of those sent away may be out of it , some to get game time under belts/find form etc

Ozzy3213 wrote:Was hoping we might have gotten Yarde back to terrorise Falcons this week!!!  

It's devastating news alright!

I'd be extremely surprised if any of those released start the 1st test (barring injuries)

Maybe not start, but could make the bench with a big performance this weekend.

Certainly in with a shout on the bench but SL will pretty much know his starting XV by now and I doubt he'd risk getting them injured playing AP rugby this weekend

Triangulation wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:To be fair, there is no England game this week, so those sent back are not necessarily out of contention.  It might just be felt they need some game time, and they have an opportunity to really stick their hand up for selection.

Spot on!

Come on chaps you should know the score by now.

These days all players are treated according to invidual requirements re fitness, game time etc

Some of those sent away may be out of it , some to get game time under belts/find form etc

The list of 10 players sent back for the games the week before almost always seems to be the 10 (give or take one or two) who miss out on England selection though. I'd say Foden has a good shout on the bench, but other than that I think we pretty much know the 23 now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:On top form i would say Lawes is considerably better player than Parling (lineout possibly excepted for the minute). However Parling is consistant. Lawes has been so eratic...good performances, bad ones, reckless decisions, injury proneness.

IF he can show more maturity, consistantly playing to the level we have witnessed and can master the lineout...then he would be a top class 5.

Lets see if he can show some consistancy...that the players like Launchbury have...playing consistantly top class all last season and near enough again this season.

Launchberry with all two seasons of premiership rugby under his belt you mean? Who has looked very good in a poor Wasps side but honestly did not set the world alight for England and who isn't having quite such a good season this year?

I rate Launchberry and think his time will come, but I think the talk about just how good he is is now getting a bit over the top. He's a quality reliable lock who's shown a lot of promise at a young age but still has a lot of flaws as well. Lawes is the inform English lock at the moment, has a fair few Eng caps now and he's been out standing all season and wasn't bad last season either (except at 6). For him not to start is just idiotic.

Chjw131 wrote:I reckon Tomkins is a cert for 13 then, Trinder still carrying a bit of a knock? Dickson stays so he could be on the bench? Brown at FB with Ashton and Yarde etc.. Hence I think we'll see

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. G Parling
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw (C)
8. B Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. O Farrell
11. M Yarde
12. B Twelvetrees
13. J Tomkins
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. D Hartley 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola 21. L Dickson 22. T Flood? 23. B Foden

Not a bad side although doesn't go any real way to addressing the issues of the 6N where we seemed underpowered. Billy V would be a good addition to the bench but my worry is reliance on just two carriers in that pack.

Backline looks just about right. I think Yarde has played a fair bit at 13 so could cover the centre spot with Foden providing a good deal of cover from the bench. I'd be surprised to see Trinder on the bench if he doesn't start. Lee Dickson offering a different dimension from the bench.

Pack carriers are my only pressing concern.

Man if that's the pack Stuart Lancaster goes with then it's like he didn't watch the summer tour, Lions or the final 6N's game. That trip to NZ was a waste of money as well. Can't believe that there wouldn't be a single change in the pack. As a Quins fan not sure on Marler starting either, he's been a nob in the last couple of games now.

On the other hand we must see some very different tactics this Autumn that suits our lighter pack.

Reckon it's between Goode and Foden for the bench depending on who plays better this week

I think it's worth noting that some of those sent back haven't played much in the last number of weeks, so there's a possibility they're being sent back to get a little game time before bench duty and not being able to top up on game time over the next month.  Attwood & Eastmond haven't played for a while, Kvesic didn't play last week, Burns was on the bench last week and missed the week before.  Not a similar case for Burrell and Care unfortunately, who would have been in my side:

Vunipola
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola

Care
Farrell
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Burrell
Ashton
Brown

Youngs, Marler, Wilson, Launchbury, Kvesic/Morgan, Dickson, Burns, Eastmond

Yappy, I understand exactly what your saying about Launchbury. I just think sometimes we have some many options we need to pick a few and stick with them. For me Launchbury is one with real potential and is the youngster...who has been getting regular games and playing well. Lets keep that going, keep him learning and getting experience.
And yes only two seasons but in those two seasons he has played consistantly very well.  

Itll be between Parling, Lawes and Launchbury to start.

The question is, is a combo of two of those missing the guy like Simon Shaw, Johnson, Grewcock,  etc...a guy with immense physical presence etc?

Andy farrell will see tompkins starting even though he cant get past an american winger/fullback at club level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yappy, I understand exactly what your saying about Launchbury. I just think sometimes we have some many options we need to pick a few and stick with them. For me Launchbury is one with real potential and is the youngster...who has been getting regular games and playing well. Lets keep that going, keep him learning and getting experience.
And yes only two seasons but in those two seasons he has played consistantly very well.  

Itll be between Parling, Lawes and Launchbury to start.

The question is, is a combo of two of those missing the guy like Simon Shaw, Johnson, Grewcock,  etc...a guy with immense physical presence etc?

I agree mate, let's stick with him as in a couple of seasons he could be really good. But at the moment let's pick on form and then keep Launchberry in the squad and have him on the bench to come on in the game. Such good form that Lawes is showing needs to be rewarded or what message does it send out?

Launchbury has impressed in an England shirt, he's performed well for Wasps and I'd certainly hope to see him starting in the AI.

Would he work well with Lawes? I'm not too sure but I'd hope to see them get at least one start as a combo.

sirtidychris wrote:Andy farrell will see tompkins starting even though he cant get past an american winger/fullback at club level.

He won't start Tompkins, he's only 18. Plus he's not in the EPS yet. Give him a couple of years and he might challenge.

I presume you are talking about Joel Tomkins, not Nick Tompkins. You don't give much credit to Chris Wyles do you? Just because he happens to represent USA doesn't mean he's a poor player. He's played in the centres plenty of times - he was in that position in the AP final 2 years ago for example. He has also scored two tries in the HC at centre this season.

I agree that Tomkins shouldn't be picked if he's not selected at 13 for his club but you shouldn't criticise one of the most useful players in the Saracens team. Also technically Wyles is more English than American has both his parents are English, he lives in England and has been here a long time, has an English accent too.

Wyles is a quality player. He's been running some great angles at 13 this season

Very true Bathite. He's one of those unsung heroes. I praise a lot of the Sarries guys, sometimes too much but Wyles is perhaps the most reliable. Utility players are so useful throughout the season.

It's a shame if Tomkins has been picked due to bias from Andy Farrell. It does look like this. Would have liked Tomkins to be released back for Sarries so he can have a proper fight for the 13 shirt.

I would start 36 and Trinder as things stand.

I wouldn't say its bias to have Tomkins in, he is a good player and of the 3 OC's we can go with, he is the most similar to Tuilagi in style in that he is a big lad who can make hard yards, even if he isn't as quick.

I too would go with Trinder or Eastmond outside 36, but I wouldn't be terribly unhappy with Tomkins

BamBam I like Tomkins but he needs games to prove himself in my opinion.

beshocked wrote:Very true Bathite. He's one of those unsung heroes. I praise a lot of the Sarries guys, sometimes too much but Wyles is perhaps the most reliable. Utility players are so useful throughout the season.

It's a shame if Tomkins has been picked due to bias from Andy Farrell. It does look like this. Would have liked Tomkins to be released back for Sarries so he can have a proper fight for the 13 shirt.

I would start 36 and Trinder as things stand.

For once i'm in complete agreement with you Beshocked. I like Tomkins as a player but would rather see him go back to Sarries and compete this weekend. I suppose he doesn't make a great bench option so it's either a start or nothing. Mind you with some of Lancs' bench selections who knows.

Are we likely to see Mako start at LH to counter what Yappy has already pointed out, is almost a carbon copy of the pack which got overpowered in Cardiff? Interesting to see Andy Farrell denied it was an underpowered selection, in The Telegraph, then went on to comment the team were overpowered!

Surely the lessons Lancs should be taking from the summer are twofold: 1. Balance of weight, power and work-rate in the pack is key. 2. A more attack minded and holistic view of the back-line is vital if you want to win against the big boys.

I understand that some players like Attwood might be short on game time but he has only been out for a few weeks. Launchbury I actually can't remember making an error in an international game but is still young and lacks for the power that Attwood possesses.

Lets get some realism here guys. The team that got overpowered in Wales had zero carrying capability. Sometimes when your under the cosh you need some of your carriers to start making impacts to release the pressure.

Pack v Wales
Marler
Youngs - 1st Season at Hooker
Cole
Parling
launchbury
Croft
Robshaw
Wood

Bar Tom Youngs, who in that lineup is going to make you your hard yards in heavy traffic...

A team with Morgan or Billy at 8, Mako at 1, a constantly improving Tom Youngs at 2 suddenly has 3 destructive carriers that can take the pressure off and indeed make us offensive rather than defensive.

And Makos scrummaging isnt that bad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lets get some realism here guys. The team that got overpowered in Wales had zero carrying capability. Sometimes when your under the cosh you need some of your carriers to start making impacts to release the pressure.

Pack v Wales
Marler
Youngs - 1st Season at Hooker
Cole
Parling
launchbury
Croft
Robshaw
Wood

Bar Tom Youngs, who in that lineup is going to make you your hard yards in heavy traffic...

A team with Morgan or Billy at 8, Mako at 1, a constantly improving Tom Youngs at 2 suddenly has 3 destructive carriers that can take the pressure off and indeed make us offensive rather than defensive.

And Makos scrummaging isnt that bad.

3 is not enough. Too easily marked.

Too easily neutered.

And if one goes down injured/ has a poor game.....wel......

We need 5 ball carriers in a pack minimum

And Mako got owned by the Wallabies. Illegally sure but owned nonetheless.

Balance is key. Overload the pack with big ball carriers and potentially weaken the lineout, mobility/tackling and breakdown work. Possible tweaks to be made to the pack and certainly the depth of the team but Lancaster won't want to be making wholesale changes now.

No Mako didnt get owned...he had a bad half an hour...then came through very well.

Three carriers is better than only having Youngs in his first season of international rugby as our only carrier. Morgan/Billy, Mako and Youngs are your major carriers then assuming Lawes form gets a start, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw can all add in to the workrate...

GeordieFalcon wrote:No Mako didnt get owned...he had a bad half an hour...then came through very well.

Three carriers is better than only having Youngs in his first season of international rugby as our only carrier. Morgan/Billy, Mako and Youngs are your major carriers then assuming Lawes form gets a start, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw can all add in to the workrate...

I think it misses a carrier at 6 or 4. Lest we forget we've lost probably the best ball carrier in the whole team in Manu. That creates problems of its own.

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:No Mako didnt get owned...he had a bad half an hour...then came through very well.

Three carriers is better than only having Youngs in his first season of international rugby as our only carrier. Morgan/Billy, Mako and Youngs are your major carriers then assuming Lawes form gets a start, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw can all add in to the workrate...

I think it misses a carrier at 6 or 4. Lest we forget we've lost probably the best ball carrier in the whole team in Manu. That creates problems of its own.

Chjw

Yes you are right.

I know it wont happen etc etc but what about a backrow of :

6. Vunipola 7. the better of Wood / Robshaw 8. Morgan

?????

I would lean heavily towards Wood for lineout jumping and all court graft.

Chjw,

But we have added one in Mako. For whilst Corbs is one of the best LH's in the world for me...Mako's carrying is much better than Corbs. So we lose in the inital set piece...but make up for it with another carrier.

Ideally we'd want a big bruiser at 6...but we just dont seem to have any at the moment. And Wood is so good elsewhere - Lineout, rucking etc...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Chjw,

But we have added one in Mako. For whilst Corbs is one of the best LH's in the world for me...Mako's carrying is much better than Corbs. So we lose in the inital set piece...but make up for it with another carrier.

Ideally we'd want a big bruiser at 6...but we just dont seem to have any at the moment. And Wood is so good elsewhere - Lineout, rucking etc...

Like i said

6. Vunipola 7.Wood 8. Morgan

6. Vunipola 7. the better of Wood / Robshaw 8. Morgan

Wheres the balance in that back row? Only 7 offers any kind of workrate, rucking, lineout etc...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

6. Vunipola 7. the better of Wood / Robshaw 8. Morgan

Wheres the balance in that back row? Only 7 offers any kind of workrate, rucking, lineout etc...

The balance comes from the pack as a whole

Cole - breakdown grafter
Youngs
Corbs/Vunipola/Marler
Parling
Launchbury/Lawes

All the above are highly mobile and get through a lot of graft, ruck clearing etc


and

then my suggested backrow

The imbalance comes from the second row but should be compenstated for somewhere!!

In short : we need Attwood