Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

Agree on Youngs, he's a real dynamic player and for what he lacks in size he certainly makes up for in power.

I wouldn't even have Hartley on the bench, I think Webber adds more to the team and is unlucky to miss out.

Triangulation wrote:

Re Youngs v Hartley

Chjw is right.

Fa0019

what is it with you saffas and your obsession with size.  you are the second saffa who has commented that youngs is "too small" the other is a mate of mine.

Ever see lee mears play the boks, see how Youngs was torn apart by the welsh?? history repeats itself. These guys may be mobile, tackle hard but they thrown around like rag dolls. If youngs was facing Bismarck I would be advising he wrote a last will and testament prior to the match.

This is no longer the old days of Brian Moore where hookers could be slight fellows and half the backs were made of straw, size counts these days especially given England don't have a mobile and swift backrow... They need big lumps to dominate front foot ball.
If you have players like tipuric, warburton, cane, brussow, pocock, hooper etc then it's possible to choose a more mobile pack.... But if you go for chaps like burger, o'brien, robshaw, louw etc you need a big front five to compete with the more mobile backrow opposing you.

To be fair Fa, Hartley was thrown around like a rag doll by Bismark. I've always found Hartley to be underpowered for his size.

Would be great if Webber could show good form and stay ruddy fit, as without Corbs, Youngs will struggle, law changes or not.

There's not many hookers who would get the better of Bismarck physically ..

The only one I could ever think of would have been Steve Thompson at his peak !

William Servat back in his day may have given it a good go and of been able to front up against a player as physical as Bismarck

Servat certainly could hold his own, unreal scrummager too. France really miss him.

I want to note my great pleasure at seeing Dickson's form at scrumhalf.

When he is on song i think he injects tempo into our play that neither Care nor Youngs seem capable of giving us.

I agree Triangulation. When I have seen Lee Dickson play he has looked very good.

Dickson is an average player who when in form behind a dominant pack looks a steady scrum half.

I wouldn't have him in Youngs or Cares league personally, especially Youngs when on form.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dickson is an average player who when in form behind a dominant pack looks a steady scrum half.

I wouldn't have him in Youngs or Cares league personally, especially Youngs when on form.

He may not be as naturally gifted as Care and Youngs Sgt but that is not everything.

I see Care and Youngs as fairly similar style 9s.

Dickson offers something different.

While he may lack the sniping of the other two he really does seem able to whip the ball away quickly from the breakdown. He is adept at organising the players around him.

Now the one thing that England have to have to compete with anyone really is quick ball and they must play at tempo. Otherwise we dont look capable of breaking down an organised defence, particularly absent Manu (and forward) ball carrying.

Good quick tempo starts with the collision in the tackle and is made by the support clearing past the ball but is utterly wasted if the 9 is not there immediately and whipping that ball into the hands of then next runner.

Dickson does this superbly well and in my opinion often better than his two rivals.

He may not be the most naturally talented but he might just be the right man for this team at this moment in time.

The oil that doth grease the wheels

I'd have him a solid 3rd choice personally, he'll never be anymore.

I don't think he's ever going to be nailed on 1st choice but he is the most on form at present. Personally would stick with Youngs with Care off the bench.

Sgt Pooly I think you're being really harsh on Dickson. As if Youngs has behind a weak pack for example...

Youngs is not in form at the moment is he? When on form I think he's the best scrum half we have but when not I wouldn't want him starting as he makes our fly half look bad and slows down the attack.

Care has never truly impressed me at international level though he's generally excellent at club level.

I think all scrum halves will be helped by having an in form Farrell to work with.


It's quite interesting how often people get mixed up when talking about form and class.

Class vs form is a tough dilemma.

E.g. I would say Ben Morgan has shown the class at international level but is not in good form.

Equally I would say the same of Youngs.

Players need to be dropped when not in form.

Ashton and Farrell for example have in my opinion shown they can cut it at international level but didn't have great 6 nations. Perhaps warranted dropping at the time.

Both are in good form now should be retained.

I think an out of form Youngs is twice the player Dickson is, I think he's a limited player and not Int class.

I'm kind of with you on Care, fantastic AP player but never really showed it on the Int stage. Still a good back up to Youngs though.

I can see Robson at Gloucester leap frogging both Care and Dickson over the next year.

I keep going from disliking to B.Youngs to liking him then disliking him as his form fluctuates. In my opinion he either goes through a string of games in excellent form or woeful form.

Sgt pooly this is where we disagree. I would take most scrum halves over an out of form Youngs.

As I say when he's in form he's definitely England's best scrum half.

In form Dickson over an out of form Youngs definitely.

I think an in form Youngs is twice the player of an in form Dickson though.

"I think an in form Youngs is twice the player of an in form Dickson though."

I'll certainly agree on that one Beshocked

Youngs can get a little involved in personal one on ones but when he is at his best he's a little general like Du Preez and Genia. Care is more explosive, Dickson from what I see is a good all round player but doesn't have the skills which Youngs can bring.

Dickson is a younger Wigglesworth, in that he offers the safe option.
He delivers quick service and does the other jobs of a 9 very well. However, there is no x-factor.
When the game is on the line you wouldn't be expecting Dickson to make the break or half break that makes the difference. Youngs and Care both offer this.

The question is - is there room in the England 23 for 2 x-factor 9's? Or do we have 1 x-factor and 1 solid option.

Youngs is a real class act. As Beshocked pointed out above Class and Form are two wildly different things. Youngs at the moment is being outplayed by Mele at Tigers and doesn't deserve to start. Although I think he will.

There are a few games where Youngs has demonstrated, to my mind at least, that he's one of the best scrum halves in the world. His best individual game recently being the losing second Test effort to SA, he was awesome. He showed a desire I didn't think he had.

He has also improved his kicking out of sight and worked on other aspects. He does need to learn to vary his service and tempo at times. Lest we forget the lad is only just 24! He's still learning and as he develops that consistency he'll be right up there as one of the best in the world.

propdavid_london wrote:Dickson is a younger Wigglesworth,  in that he offers the safe option.  
He delivers quick service and does the other jobs of a 9 very well.  However, there is no x-factor.  
When the game is on the line you wouldn't be expecting Dickson to make the break or half break that makes the difference.  Youngs and Care both offer this.  

The question is - is there room in the England 23 for 2 x-factor 9's?  Or do we have 1 x-factor and 1 solid option.

I don't, with respect think Dickson is the same as Wigglesworth. Dickson is a fast passer, pack involved, high-tempo sort of a player. Wiggs is more of a tactician, he has a nice pass and one of the best box kicks in the AP but plays at a different pace to Dickson.

I think what Tri was trying to point out above is that Dickson offers a different dimension rather than being 'safe' per se. He's all about picking up the tempo. Whereas sometimes Care and Youngs can slow the ball for the FH and forwards looking to snipe at the wrong time. It also then serves to create a bit of confusion in the big lads. With England's big lads not being as big as they were, the slower pace and confusion inevitably means isolation or being driven backwards.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd have him a solid 3rd choice personally, he'll never be anymore.

Maybe not to you Sgt but he is already that for Lancaster and his coaches.

Fair point Chjw - perhaps not the Wiggy comparison.
I agree that Dickson plays a reasonable high tempo game - But one thing that he isn't particularly used to is playing behind a struggling pack. Saints aren't normally lacking in the big boys department.

We will have to see what SL opts for, but it does look like at the moment Dickson may have overtaken Care in the order of 9's. Care has been sent back to Quins (presumably to get more gametime) although he's had more than both Youngs/Dickson. And he's also not starting, as Lee's brother Karl is starting against Sale.

The problem that Youngs has when he isn't on form is the extended and continual "meerkating" that he does. To the extent that in one game - I forget which - he got hit on the back when the forwards passed out the ball from the breakdown because he wasn't looking in their direction.

Also he can be temperamental and ill disciplined on occasion - yellow card v Ireland.  On the Lions tour when up against Philips who is universally reviled by the Welsh and (wasn't 100% fit) and Conor Murray who is hardly rated by the Irish, he wasn’t able to stamp his authority on the test team.  He did start one game, but was so mediocre he was promptly dropped for the third test.

What makes it more frustrating is that he has all the skills – far more than Dickson – but Dickson does do the basics of getting the ball away to the fly half reasonably quickly, so at least the backs have a chance.  That was the reason Dickson replaced Youngs twice in the 2012 6 Nations and Youngs was eventually dropped.

When Youngs is good he is very good, but there is too much mediocrity in between.

Davey wilson has a calf strain and dylan hartley rolled his ankle and is wearing a boot, both touch and go....replacements Rob webber and ???? whose the next best tighthead, please dont say PDJ ?

sirtidychris wrote:Davey wilson has a calf strain and dylan hartley rolled his ankle and is wearing a boot, both touch and go....replacements Rob webber and ???? whose the next best tighthead, please dont say PDJ ?  

Well, one of those isa blow, but the other most of us here might consider a blessing.

Henry Thomas would be next in line?

Yep Henry Thomas would get the call. Has gone well for Sale recently, be interesting to see how he does this weekend. Great carrier but much like Mako, struggles to consistently dominate the scrummage. Young though and will surely be No.1 at some point in the not too distant future.

Good to see Attwood starting for Bath this weekend in what is a behemoth of a pack with some good England prospects there: 1. P James 2. R Webber 3. A Perinese 4. S Hooper 5. D Attwood 6. M Garvey 7. F Louw 8. C Fearns

We are going to lose to australia whether we go with an out of form youngs or an in form dickson will make diddly squat difference to that.

Were going to lose to a poor wallaby side.

At home.

It makes me want to puke all over myself.

What you going to do if we win Tri?

propdavid_london wrote:Fair point Chjw - perhaps not the Wiggy comparison.  
I agree that Dickson plays a reasonable high tempo game - But one thing that he isn't particularly used to is playing behind a struggling pack.  Saints aren't normally lacking in the big boys department.

We will have to see what SL opts for, but it does look like at the moment Dickson may have overtaken Care in the order of 9's. Care has been sent back to Quins (presumably to get more gametime) although he's had more than both Youngs/Dickson.  And he's also not starting, as Lee's brother Karl is starting against Sale.  

Care's only on the bench, though. I am beginning to wonder if he was sent back as a favour to Quins rather than to get game time - our other two backup SHs (Stuart and OLH) are both injured, so actually if he hadn't come back we might not have had aspecialist 9 on the bench,

No 7&1/2 wrote:What you going to do if we win Tri?

I will dance and sing and be merry of course. If it is raining i will jump in the puddles and sing "Singing in the rain".

And then on Monday morning, i will come back on to these boards and admit that i was wrong and accept that perhaps i was too pessimistic.

What would you have me do?

Frankly though there is a snowflake's chance in hell of us beating the Wallabies or the All Blacks and only a slim hope of beating Las Pumas.

We are an utter rabble with an unbalanced pack, players out with injury, key players losing form and fitness at the wrong time.

We look a shambles.

I do hope i am wrong but i am convinced that i am not.

I wouldn't have you do anything, just amuses me how convinced you are despite basing your opinion on very little! I could accept people saying we're 2nd best against NZ, at a stretch against Aus but thinking we're going to lose against the Argies is frankly silly.

Triangulation wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd have him a solid 3rd choice personally, he'll never be anymore.

Maybe not to you Sgt but he is already that for Lancaster and his coaches.

What's your proof of this?

For the majority of SL's tenure it's been Youngs & Care (fitness dependant).

If Dickson does get a game or two we'll soon be reminded he's not up to Int rugby and the Youngs/Care double act will be restored.

"Frankly though there is a snowflake's chance in hell of us beating the Wallabies or the All Blacks and only a slim hope of beating Las Pumas."

What a load of rubbish.

Sounds like your one of these "fans" who is only happy when we're struggling and you can whinge about how bad we are.

You sound like a fickle England football fan more than a true rugby fan.

" Also he can be temperamental and ill disciplined on occasion - yellow card v Ireland. On the Lions tour when up against Philips who is universally reviled by the Welsh and (wasn't 100% fit) and Conor Murray who is hardly rated by the Irish, he wasn’t able to stamp his authority on the test team. He did start one game, but was so mediocre he was promptly dropped for the third test."

Nlpnlp, the Lions were winning that test before Youngs left the field. He executed the kicking game plan Gatland wanted and drew three penalties from his box kicks. He left the field with a shoulder injury and that is why he missed the final test. He was not dropped. The shoulder injury was sufficiently bad for him to miss the start of the season for Tigers.

The head to head between Goode and Foden was won hands down by Foden today. Two tries, plus ripping the ball off of all people Goode when over the try line in a totally dominant Saints display.

Burrell also scored and looked like another version of Manu with his tackling and carrying.

Foden can expect to be on the bench I think as possibly could Burrell

Foden took his tries well but was generally poor for me. His basic FB play is pretty bad lately, he struggles under the high ball and is a poor kicker from hand.

Burrell was excellent though, certainly the form 12.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/8994966/england-prop-alex-corbisiero-hoping-to-face-argentina-during-autumn-internationals

Good news on Corbs

Henry Thomas is rubbish. A front row of Mako/Marler, Youngs/Hartley and Thomas will get torn a new ar5ehole by a second rate Wallabies and utterly destroyed by the Pumas and The Mighty All Blacks (who won't be ill this time)

What a joke. England, prepare to get humiliated 3 times at home.
Pathetic.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The head to head between Goode and Foden was won hands down by  Foden today. Two tries, plus ripping the ball off of all people Goode when over the try line in a totally dominant Saints display.

Burrell also scored and looked like another version of Manu with his tackling and carrying.

Foden can expect to be on the bench I think as possibly could Burrell

Another version of Manu?! Don't write him off yet....

Hubert Davenport wrote:Henry Thomas is rubbish. A front row of Mako/Marler, Youngs/Hartley and Thomas will get torn a new ar5ehole by a second rate Wallabies  and utterly destroyed by the Pumas and The Mighty All Blacks (who won't be ill this time)

What a joke. England, prepare to get humiliated 3 times at home.
Pathetic.

Quins won again I see

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/8994966/england-prop-alex-corbisiero-hoping-to-face-argentina-during-autumn-internationals

Good news on Corbs

Excellent. Similar news on Manu would be nice.

thomh wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/8994966/england-prop-alex-corbisiero-hoping-to-face-argentina-during-autumn-internationals

Good news on Corbs

Excellent. Similar news on Manu would be nice.

Yes, very good news, especially as it is just a knock to his stronger knee that could happen to any player rather than a sign of "degenerative knee problems"

Hubert Davenport wrote:Henry Thomas is rubbish. A front row of Mako/Marler, Youngs/Hartley and Thomas will get torn a new ar5ehole by a second rate Wallabies  and utterly destroyed by the Pumas and The Mighty All Blacks (who won't be ill this time)

What a joke. England, prepare to get humiliated 3 times at home.
Pathetic.

No he isn't.  He is one of the most promising young props in England,  but that's the problem, he's too young.  I think we all know his scrummaging isn't up to international standard yet, but it's not like he's a pencilled in starter is it?  He's there as third choice in case Wilson doesn't make it,  at most he may get 20 minutes off the bench behind Cole, valuable experience for a young player. The front row will Mako/Marler, Youngs and Cole... Three B&I Lions, how awful! We're doomed I tell you, Dooooomed!

Humiliated by Argentina?  You're stretching your own credibility and my interest with that.  Argentina have only ever beaten us once outside of Argentina and that was against one of the worst England teams I've seen in years (George Chuter, Perry Freshwater, Pat Sanderson and Shaun Perry *shudder*) at one of our lowest ebbs.

However,  I suspect that none of this matter’s because you’re a mole, what other names do you go by?

Cumbrian

Hubert Daveport is all over rugbynetwork.co.uk having a go at Quins on other teams' boards this season. Have to admit that there are a few gems there if you search further down though. On 'Fields of Athenry' before the Munster Quarter Final:

"Such a beautiful song. Alongside 'flying without wings' by Westlife it has to be the most moving Irish ballard ever written."

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/search/s98.htm?100,search=Hubert+Davenport,page=1,match_type=AUTHOR,match_dates=365,match_forum=ALL

I suspect he is also a poster that I've seen from time to time on Rugby Rebels too, a Quins 'fan' who constantly predicts the club's downfall.

Just wondering what team everyone is now expecting this Sat? For me I expect SL to go with;

Mako, Youngs, Cole
Parling, Lawes
Wood, Vuni, Robshaw
Youngs, Farrell
Yarde, 36, Tomkins,Ashton
Brown

But then again he may surprise us. Launchbury and Lawes or stick with last season's combo, but most of the press believe Lawes will be recalled. The rest of the pack is pretty much nailed on. Greenwood votes for Burrell and Trinder over 36 and Tomkins but I think 36 will play but Tomkins may not start? Yarde and Ashton I think are the starting wingers and Brown looks good for 15 despite Foden's good form.

I expect another Wallabies win this weekend as I fear the scrum will be poor and the Aussies will win the loose battle. Plus I cannot see our backs, which is yet another new combination, matching up to the Aussies. Hopefully my pessimism will prove to be wrong.

hugehandoff

I would pick Burrell instead of Tomkins.

Burrell is a player in form. Tomkins has not been given enough opportunities - fault of England and Sarries (he should have started vs Saints and Toulouse for example).

36-Burrell or Burrell-Trinder would be my pick.

Agree with the rest of that team though.