Starting England XV for the november internationals.

by flankertye Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

by Cumbrian Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:23 am

I'm a lot more optimistic. The centres are new but 36 is a more creative centre than Barritt and if he can get into the game he can really unleash out outside backs who are in really good form. I can't call the outside centre because I honestly don't know who will be in there; Trinder, Tomkins and even Burrell or Eastmond are in the mix.

I'd quite like to see:

09. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Ashton
12. Twelvetrees
13. Eastmond
14. Yarde
15. Brown

Up front, even if our scrum isn't at it's best, remember who the opposition are! We'll get parity at the very least. To me, the most important aspect of the game is the breakdown. If we can pile into it the way we did against the All Blacks and South Africa, I think we'll win.

by beshocked Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:35 am

Cumbrian it's too early for Tompkins. He does look talented but he's only 18.

I would be happy with Burrell or 36 at 12.

Definitely don't want Eastmond at 13 though at the moment. That's the only selection that would really disappointment me.

by Wyldthing Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:37 am

Both Burrell and Foden did exactly what they needed to do after being released for the weekend. I'd hope that both get a chance next weekend...

beshocked: Do you think it was England or Sarries call not to play Tomkins against Toulouse?

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:43 am

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian it's too early for Tompkins. He does look talented but he's only 18.

I would be happy with Burrell or 36 at 12.

Definitely don't want Eastmond at 13 though at the moment. That's the only selection that would really disappointment me.

Beshocked - Tompkins is 24 isn't he?

I agree with the centres I'd go Trinder at 13.

by beshocked Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:48 am

Bigtrevbigmac Tompkins is 18. Tomkins is 26. It's pedantic but getting the name correct is important.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:55 am

beshocked wrote:Bigtrevbigmac Tompkins is 18. Tomkins is 26. It's pedantic but getting the name correct is important.

Gotcha

by Cumbrian Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:22 am

Ooops!

by Triangulation Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:43 am

Score predictions for the 3 tests then?

by beshocked Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:45 am

Triangulation once I know the respective teams I will make my prediction.

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:24 am

I'd like to see Goode and 36 combine for the centre partnership!

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:51 am

butterfingers wrote:I'd like to see Goode and 36 combine for the centre partnership!

Oh yes that would be a real treat.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:55 am

Goode??? You mean the guy who doesn't play centre?

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:01 am

We're looking at some inexperience in the back line as a whole. With that in mind i'd like to see 36 and Trinder play together. They have an established club relationship and that should help the side to bed in.

Further, Trinder is the only centre bar 36 who has an accomplished kicking game off his left boot. That could be used as a real asset. It's a shame he hasn't played a bit more but I think it's worth the risk given the benefits that could be realised.

Tomkins I like as a player and his distribution has been really good at times. If it were at the end of last season he would be straight in but I don't think he's in quite that form just yet.

by Triangulation Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:11 am

I think Australia are going to win. I hope i am wrong. I fail to understand how or why people are so confident of victory over the Wallabies. Look at the reality of this situation chaps.

1. The wallabies pushed the Lions in T1 and 2.
2. They have improved since then.
3. England are not as strong as the Lions.
4. England are not even as strong as England this time in 2012 i.e 2 new centres and instability in front row.
5. The front row weaknesses will at least give the Wallabies parity.
6. There are few sides in the world better at exploiting defensive indecision than the wallabies particularly through the backline.
7. The Wallabies have been together for the Championship to get match hard and to gel. We have not had that chance. The Wallabies have also had a break. They will be primed.

Everyone on here seems to think its a foregone conclusion that we'll beat them. It is madness. We're sleepwalking into an ambush.

p.s Did i mention that i will be there at Twickenham?

There i just did.

For all of my realism which is being called pessimism i desperately want us to beat the Wallabies and to win all 3 Tests this AI series. I just cant see it happening and i refuse to be catastrophically disappointed by over estimating our chances.

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:23 am

Here's the team list from last year:

Goode; Ashton, Tuilagi, Barritt, Sharples; Flood, Care; Marler, T Youngs, Cole, Palmer, Parling, Johnson, Robshaw, Waldrom.

David Paice also made an appearance in that match. With the greatest of respect Tri I think we have a better team this time around (My picks):

M Brown, C Ashton, H Trinder(?), B Twelvetrees, M Yarde, O Farrell, B Youngs, M Vunipola, T Youngs, D Cole, C Lawes, G Parling, T Wood, C Robshaw, B Morgan

It's better in terms of blend and has some more experience. It's not a forgone conclusion by any means but we should be confident of beating the Aussies at HQ.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:30 am

Is that really the team from last Autumn?? I'm amazed we didn't lose by more last year, looking at that now

by Triangulation Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:30 am

Ok Chjw131

I will try. Thankyou

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:31 am

BamBam wrote:Is that really the team from last Autumn?? I'm amazed we didn't lose by more last year, looking at that now

I know so was I!

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:32 am

Triangulation wrote:
Ok Chjw131

I will try. Thankyou

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:34 am

Actually it's interesting to see that although we think of England as being a fair way down the road in terms of development, 10 of those starting XV will not be likely to feature in this one. Some of which aren't even in the EPS.

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:01 am

hugehandoff wrote:Just wondering what team everyone is now expecting this Sat? For me I expect SL to go with;

Mako, Youngs, Cole
Parling, Lawes
Wood, Vuni, Robshaw
Youngs, Farrell
Yarde, 36, Tomkins,Ashton
Brown

But then again he may surprise us. Launchbury and Lawes or stick with last season's combo, but most of the press believe Lawes will be recalled.

I think that's exactly what we'll see. Launchbury and Lawes would be great to see though.

by lostinwales Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:06 am

When is the announcement?

by Chjw131 Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:11 am

I assume Thursday. I know Lancs likes to leave it as late as possible usually.

by Triangulation Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:20 am

How the hell did Attwood go on the weekend?!?!?!?!

IF he can maximise his talents he could become key for us.

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Goode??? You mean the guy who doesn't play centre?

Didn't harm Roberts being converted from a FB come winger, there are literally thousands of players who excel in different positions because forward thinking coaches decide their abilities could be of use elsewhere.

Youngs is an extreme example, but still makes my point.

Goode is superb defencively, has decent pace, good hands, can turn and would make an excellent 2nd pivot, it would just be a touch wider than he's used to playing the 2nd pivot from 15.

A partnership of 36 inside Goode would be superb, with the likes of Yarde, Wade and Ashton out wide, and the running threat of Foden from FB, we would finally have a mix of talent, defencive nous and experience, not to mention 3 solid boots.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:29 am

butterfingers wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Goode??? You mean the guy who doesn't play centre?
Didn't harm Roberts being converted from a FB come winger, there are literally thousands of players who excel in different positions because forward thinking coaches decide their abilities could be of use elsewhere.

Youngs is an extreme example, but still makes my point.

Goode is superb defencively, has decent pace, good hands, can turn and would make an excellent 2nd pivot, it would just be a touch wider than he's used to playing the 2nd pivot from 15.

A partnership of 36 inside Goode would be superb, with the likes of Yarde, Wade and Ashton out wide, and the running threat of Foden from FB, we would finally have a mix of talent, defencive nous and experience, not to mention 3 solid boots.

Ignoring Goode's lack of centre experience, do we need what would effectively be a 3rd pivot, if including the fly half and 36? I think I would prefer another strike runner with the ability to offload to the back 3

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:35 am

You think Goode doesn't have international experience? In comparison to Tomkins, Trinder etc...

36 has been far more than a second fly half this last season or so, he is more direct these days, and carries ball well, as does Goode who can be very direct ball in hand.

I honestly think they are worth giving a shot in the AI's, both are in good form, experienced around the England squad, and show the abilities to become top international players!

Who is the strike runner with offload abilities? The recent trends have shown big carriers at 12 and classier options at 13 who have excelled BOD, Smith, Davies, does Goode's abilities not compare with these guys?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:36 am

Superb defensively and decent pace are not two qualities I'd associate with Alex Goode.

He's a very good full back, he has a good kicking game and is strong positionally.

Goode is not a centre and never will be centre.

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:37 am

[quote="butterfingers"]

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Goode is superb defencively, has decent pace, good hands, can turn and would make an excellent 2nd pivot, it would just be a touch wider than he's used to playing the 2nd pivot from 15.

Really? I've seen him frequently get bumped off tackles and he's not at all fast or powerful. What he's excellent at defensively is his positioning and kicking from full back, which wouldn't be relevant at 13.

There's only so many specialist distributors you need in the backline. If your 9,10 and 12 can pass and kick then what's the point of picking a 13 who has that as their main strengths as well? Somewhere down the line there has to be someone worth passing it to.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:41 am

Luckily Butterfingers, we'll never get to see it happen.

SL isn't stupid enough to throw a player into a position he's never played, against some of the best players in world rugby. It would be carnage.

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:42 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Luckily Butterfingers, we'll never get to see it happen.

SL isn't stupid enough to throw a player into a position he's never played, against some of the best players in world rugby. It would be carnage.

Let's assume he's learnt his lesson there.

Tom Youngs at centre it is then.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:43 am

butterfingers wrote:You think Goode doesn't have international experience? In comparison to Tomkins, Trinder etc...

36 has been far more than a second fly half this last season or so, he is more direct these days, and carries ball well, as does Goode who can be very direct ball in hand.

I honestly think they are worth giving a shot in the AI's, both are in good form, experienced around the England squad, and show the abilities to become top international players!

Who is the strike runner with offload abilities? The recent trends have shown big carriers at 12 and classier options at 13 who have excelled BOD, Smith, Davies, does Goode's abilities not compare with these guys?

I said centre experience not international experience!

Strike runner with ability to offload .. Tuilagi (obv not available now), then probably Trinder, Tomkins and Burrell, all of whom are capable of breaking the line and passing.

I wouldn't put Alex Goode in the same category as any of those 3 players, in their primes they are all far pacier and more likely to break the line, as well as being very good defenders

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:44 am

You realise most teams play with 12 who essentially just crash, how good is Roberts, Nonu's, Darcy's distribution games? good but they do not excel, and the 13's outside really do excel.

Goode is a very good runner of the ball, I never said he was lightening, but he is quick enough to play international rugby at centre, I actually think he's too slow for fullback.

Defencively he's very good, he does take a bump here or there but what int back doesn't these days, 1/2p gets knocked out every other game, I've seen JDV flattened, and he's probably one of the strongest defencive centres in the world.

My point is I think Goodes abilities and form has definately earned a look at both players together, they are slightly similar, but that could work to our advantage.

by lostinwales Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:46 am

thomh wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Luckily Butterfingers, we'll never get to see it happen.

SL isn't stupid enough to throw a player into a position he's never played, against some of the best players in world rugby. It would be carnage.
Let's assume he's learnt his lesson there.

Tom Youngs at centre it is then.

Good hands - certainly a bit of a handful

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:47 am

butterfingers wrote:You realise most teams play with 12 who essentially just crash, how good is Roberts, Nonu's, Darcy's distribution games? good but they do not excel, and the 13's outside really do excel.

Yes, but you were suggesting Twelvetrees alongside Goode at 12, not a crash ball player. Twelvetrees has an excellent pass and Goode would not be the player to benefit from it outside.

Anyway, even if we selected a big crash ball player at 12 (perhaps Burrell or Tuilagi), and a more distributive type at 13 that doesn't mean Goode would be a good option at all. We have plenty of players better suited to 13

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:48 am

Perhaps a Burrell/Eastmond combo?

If we want a smaller centre who has good running skills and is an excellent distributor .. Eastmond is the man for me

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:48 am

Trinder, Tomkins and Burrell,

Which have shown any of their abilities on the international stage though? The problem is your comparing Goode's abilities in a position he isn't best at in my opinion, and his abilities at international rugby, whereas your using club and lesser form of the other 3 to claim they are better.

Right now if I were selecting our backline it would evolve around Farell and Tuilagi, probably involve 36 inside, and Goode at FB, but if Goode were at 13 then Brown would be allowed back to where he belongs, or maybe Foden.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:49 am

He's never played centre BF, even at AP level.

There's more to centre than just throwing a player in there because he can offload. You talk of form yet what form has Goode got at centre.......none!

This debate is pretty irrelevant as it 100% won't happen.

I may as well suggest Mako to 8 as he carries well and can offload.

You don't experiment against the best sides in the world.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:52 am

Personally I would rather have a rookie at international level who has played 50 odd games at centre at club and Heineken level in the team at centre, than a full back who hasn't shown a huge amount at full back in his 20 odd caps playing centre as an experiment.

You mention Roberts, but i'm pretty sure he was moved to centre for the Blues before he played there for Wales?

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:53 am

butterfingers wrote:
Goode is a very good runner of the ball, I never said he was lightening, but he is quick enough to play international rugby at centre, I actually think he's too slow for fullback.

Against good international teams he's a terrible runner of the ball. He was superb against Ireland kicking in the wet, but he's got no pace, power or step of note. Against Wales they happily kicked it to him all day knowing that we didn't have a threat on the counter. I would have him as an option at full back for certain opposition and conditions, but I can't see how or why we would try to shoehorn him into a centre position he's never played, ahead of players with more pace, power and experience. His kicking and full back positioning wouldn't be of any use there.

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:54 am

lostinwales wrote:
thomh wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Luckily Butterfingers, we'll never get to see it happen.

SL isn't stupid enough to throw a player into a position he's never played, against some of the best players in world rugby. It would be carnage.
Let's assume he's learnt his lesson there.

Tom Youngs at centre it is then.
Good hands - certainly a bit of a handful

Under Lancaster hasn't...

Cole played LH
Youngs played hooker
Croft played 2nd row
Wood played 8
Barrit covered 8 and 6
Brown played wing

Surely anyone would agree Goodes abilities certainly lend themselves to centre? All I'm asking is to give him a chance with 36, who may be similar but not necesarily too similar.

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:55 am

butterfingers wrote:Trinder, Tomkins and Burrell,

Which have shown any of their abilities on the international stage though? The problem is your comparing Goode's abilities in a position he isn't best at in my opinion, and his abilities at international rugby, whereas your using club and lesser form of the other 3 to claim they are better.

Right now if I were selecting our backline it would evolve around Farell and Tuilagi, probably involve 36 inside, and Goode at FB, but if Goode were at 13 then Brown would be allowed back to where he belongs, or maybe Foden.

Out of interest, what is it about Goode that would put him as your first choice full back? Most on here have it between Brown and Foden, with Goode a long way back in 3rd.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:57 am

Other than Youngs at hooker (which was a move made by his club and he played there for a season (?) at Leicester first), which one of those has been a good move?

As an example of how a full back who has far more gas and line breaking ability than Goode did at centre as an experiment, I give you Christian Cullen

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:58 am

butterfingers wrote:
Cole played LH - When? If he has, then only as emergency injury cover when there was only 1 prop on the bench
Youngs played hooker - Youngs is a hooker
Croft played 2nd row - Croft has played second row in a Heineken Cup final. Well established that he's at least an emergency option there
Wood played 8 - Yeh and it didn't go well
Barrit covered 8 and 6 - When was that? During a sin-bin?
Brown played wing - Didn't go brilliantly, and wing is more similar to full back than 13 is anyway

Surely anyone would agree Goodes abilities certainly lend themselves to centre? - Not really, as discussed above

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:00 pm

BamBam wrote:Personally I would rather have a rookie at international level who has played 50 odd games at centre at club and Heineken level in the team at centre, than a full back who hasn't shown a huge amount at full back in his 20 odd caps playing centre as an experiment.

You mention Roberts, but i'm pretty sure he was moved to centre for the Blues before he played there for Wales?

Roberts made less than 10 appearances for Wales on tour before he was converted to 13 by Wales, then to 12 by Wales. Who would have thought a lump on the wing with too little pace, no attack threat whatsoever and poor defencive nous would become the dominant 12 in the NH for the last 5 years or so.

My point is Goode isn't suited to FB, he hasn't the blistering pace of some, or the attacking threat of others, but he does have a very well rounded game, and I think would be a very good centre option.

by BamBam Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:03 pm

I actually agree with you that Goode could play centre, and have thought similar before but I would never put him into international level there before he starts a few games at club level in that position, even if it is only 10 games.

The defensive positioning etc is so different to full back, it would be a ridiculous decision to put him into centre against Australia next week

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:05 pm

butterfingers wrote:
Roberts made less than 10 appearances for Wales on tour before he was converted to 13 by Wales, then to 12 by Wales. Who would have thought a lump on the wing with too little pace, no attack threat whatsoever and poor defencive nous would become the dominant 12 in the NH for the last 5 years or so.

Roberts is 6ft 4 and 17 and a half stone though. He may not have the pace of an international winger, but he's a physical monster with a huge presence in the tackle. What attributes of Goode do you think would be suited to 13? I can see why he could theoretically be a fly half, with his decent pass and kick, but at 13 you don't need either of those to anything like the same extent, and he doesn't have the pace or power to scare defenders one on one.

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:05 pm

thomh wrote:
butterfingers wrote:Trinder, Tomkins and Burrell,

Which have shown any of their abilities on the international stage though? The problem is your comparing Goode's abilities in a position he isn't best at in my opinion, and his abilities at international rugby, whereas your using club and lesser form of the other 3 to claim they are better.

Right now if I were selecting our backline it would evolve around Farell and Tuilagi, probably involve 36 inside, and Goode at FB, but if Goode were at 13 then Brown would be allowed back to where he belongs, or maybe Foden.
Out of interest, what is it about Goode that would put him as your first choice full back? Most on here have it between Brown and Foden, with Goode a long way back in 3rd.

Really does depend on the centre partnership, currently we have a defencive monster in Barritt, and Tuilagi is a huge threat both ball in hand and defencively, we would need a 2nd distribution option.

However if the situation calls for, and it currently does, we are missing both centre options then I would go with Foden from FB, slightly ahead of Brown purely because I would have Goode in the centre, and wouldn't need Browns boot, plus Foden has more gas, and is a bigger threat ball in hand.

I understand the criticism of Goode, but that is at FB, and on his international form, whereas others cutting up the world against some of the weaker AP clubs are getting huge praise.

Once again, all I'm saying is if your going to test players in the centre in the AI's then Goode is as good an option as any we have.

by butterfingers Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:08 pm

thomh wrote:
butterfingers wrote:
Roberts made less than 10 appearances for Wales on tour before he was converted to 13 by Wales, then to 12 by Wales. Who would have thought a lump on the wing with too little pace, no attack threat whatsoever and poor defencive nous would become the dominant 12 in the NH for the last 5 years or so.
Roberts is 6ft 4 and 17 and a half stone though. He may not have the pace of an international winger, but he's a physical monster with a huge presence in the tackle. What attributes of Goode do you think would be suited to 13? I can see why he could theoretically be a fly half, with his decent pass and kick, but at 13 you don't need either of those to anything like the same extent, and he doesn't have the pace or power to scare defenders one on one.

Is this case number 1 for Matt Banahan? Size means nothing without the skill to back it up, and Roberts abilities lent themselves to 12 on the international stage first. These are AI's and are the time to try things out, in this case we have to take a risk at centre, is Goode really that much of a risk than others?

by thomh Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:10 pm

butterfingers wrote:
I understand the criticism of Goode, but that is at FB, and on his international form, whereas others cutting up the world against some of the weaker AP clubs are getting huge praise.

The thing is though, the criticism of his international form is aimed at precisely those attributes he would need at 13. When you think of the positions that a 13 finds themselves in - what they need is pace, power, an offload, tackling and rucking - a lot of overlap with flankers. They rarely need to kick downfield or throw long passes around, as a long kick from a 13 would probably not have enough of a chase, and a long pass out to the winger before breaking the line would just get them isolated. I just don't see what Goode has that would be useful there.

butterfingers wrote:These are AI's and are the time to try things out, in this case we have to take a risk at centre, is Goode really that much of a risk than others?

Not a risk so much as I just don't see what it would achieve. Tomkins could be a presence in an international centre partnership with his power and offload. I just don't see what Goode would add in the wide channels.

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