Starting England XV for the november internationals.

First topic message reminder :

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

What about 12?

thomh wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
I understand the criticism of Goode, but that is at FB, and on his international form, whereas others cutting up the world against some of the weaker AP clubs are getting huge praise.

The thing is though, the criticism of his international form is aimed at precisely those attributes he would need at 13. When you think of the positions that a 13 finds themselves in - what they need is pace, power, an offload, tackling and rucking - a lot of overlap with flankers. They rarely need to kick downfield or throw long passes around, as a long kick from a 13 would probably not have enough of a chase, and a long pass out to the winger before breaking the line would just get them isolated. I just don't see what Goode has that would be useful there.

I get what your saying, but thats very in the box thinking, most teams develop 3rd kicking options defencively, most centres will drop into the 10 spot, inside and outside, players take on numerous roles in every game these days.

I really don't think Goode's abilities are much different to Davies of Wales, BOD or Smith. When Roberts moved to 12 for Wales people were talking about how poor a distributor he was and how it wouldn't work, look at Fofana for France, doesn't have the conventional centre abilities, but we've seen him fail on the wing and is superb at centre, the game is about trying new things and mixing things up.

ChequeredJersey wrote:What about 12?

More plausible, but I'd still have concerns about his threat with the ball in hand and front-on tackling. Twelvetrees is in good attacking form, and has the size and power to make an impact against top sides.

butterfingers wrote:I get what your saying, but thats very in the box thinking, most teams develop 3rd kicking options defencively, most centres will drop into the 10 spot, inside and outside, players take on numerous roles in every game these days.

I really don't think Goode's abilities are much different to Davies of Wales, BOD or Smith. When Roberts moved to 12 for Wales people were talking about how poor a distributor he was and how it wouldn't work, look at Fofana for France, doesn't have the conventional centre abilities, but we've seen him fail on the wing and is superb at centre, the game is about trying new things and mixing things up.

I agree it can be useful to have extra kicking options, but if you're selecting your 13 on that basis then I think you'd have to wonder about what your 9,10 and 15 were up to.

In terms of the comparison to other centres - guys like Davies and Fofana are physically exceptional in terms of their running threat. The same was true of O'Driscoll once, while Smith is incredibly skilful and good in defence. I don't see that with Goode.

Incidentally, what do you mean that Fofana doesn't have conventional centre abilities?

12 wouldn't be a bad shout for Goode, didn't he start out as a fly half? Even so, I wouldn't play him without seeing him in that position for Sarries, tackling back row forwards front on, give him games in the Heino and Aviva up against the top club sides at 12, if he is strong in defence and shows good distribution, as well as being a threat himself then why not play him there in the 6 Nations?

Just not till he shows something there for Sarries!

Thoughts on Steven Myler for the England 10 shirt?

According to some posters he put in a world class performance against Sarries 3rd choice 10. Has to be a very strong contender....




I think perhaps Alex Goode should move back to 10. Not a centre in my opinion.

And if/when a certain Leicester player gets back to fitness Goode wont even be 3rd choice fullback (As for Tait vs Goode for the centers.....) He was admitidly superb against Ireland in the rain, and, funnily enough had some good moments vs NZ. But that was it. Fine rugby brain, and in another life might have made a good FH, but there are other better options in all his possible positions

Goode is first choice if England play Farrell without a supporting distributor in the centres. If not he falls below Foden and Brown IMO.

I think I need to be clear, I'm talking using Goode as a centre option, I don't think a 13 specialist is his thing, but then I think players only specialise when they excel or lack in a certain skill.

I don't think Davies has anything Goode hasn't, infact I would say Goode is probably slightly superior a player, his distribution is much better, he has a better boot and probably matches Davies pace, Davies does have a strength advantage though.

Fofana's skill set is probably more Shane Williams than Brian o Driscoll, yet he excels from centre, and at 12 too. Fofana is an elusive runner ball in hand, but weak defencively, and his distribution is ok at best.

I don't have a problem with 36 at 13 and Goode at 12, they spend their gaes interchanging anyhow.

beshocked wrote:Thoughts on Steven Myler for the England 10 shirt?

According to some posters he put in a world class performance against Sarries 3rd choice 10. Has to be a very strong contender....




I think perhaps Alex Goode should move back to 10. Not a centre in my opinion.

I know it wasnt a serious post but just pretending it was. We have Farrell and Burns, both works in progress but both very promising. We have Ford and Flood. One the Mark Bennett of English rugby and the other a 50 cap veteran who if he finds some form is a more than decent option. To get past those 4 a player will have to have a lot of luck with other people getting injured or to make an unanswerable case with the quality of their play.

"I don't think Davies has anything Goode hasn't, infact I would say Goode is probably slightly superior a player, his distribution is much better, he has a better boot and probably matches Davies pace, Davies does have a strength advantage though."

That is a completely bizarre statement.

Davies is probably 3st heavier than Goode and a physical threat. He is much faster than Goode and is excellent defensively.

It's defensively not defencivley by the way, sorry it was bugging me.

Are you a WUM BF?

I can't understand how you can seriously push for Goode to play centre in the AI's....I wouldn't have in the matchday squad never mind playing a position he's NEVER played before.

Why would I be Wumming, Davies isn't 3 st heavier, he is a bit bigger and heavier, but he hasn't got any more pace than Goode has! I'm not saying Davies is a poor player, but I am a fan of Goode, but think he has more to offer than the predictable boot at FB.

beshocked wrote:Thoughts on Steven Myler for the England 10 shirt?

According to some posters he put in a world class performance against Sarries 3rd choice 10. Has to be a very strong contender....




I think perhaps Alex Goode should move back to 10. Not a centre in my opinion.

Happy to have him as a backup 4th or so choice but Farrell for me

Goode is a decent 22 covering FB or FH IMO, if we have someone who can cover wing and centre like maybe May

I would rather see May cover FB too and have an actual FH on the bench CJ .. if Farrell/Burns/Flood whoever the starter is gets injured in the first 20 mins vs the All Blacks, do you have much confidence in Goode to play 10 for 60 mins?

BamBam wrote:I would rather see May cover FB too and have an actual FH on the bench CJ .. if Farrell/Burns/Flood whoever the starter is gets injured in the first 20 mins vs the All Blacks, do you have much confidence in Goode to play 10 for 60 mins?

That's true.

Alex Goode: 13st 5lb

https://www.rfu.com/squadsandplayers/englandelite/alexgoode

Jon Davies: 16st 5lb

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/wales_seniors.php?player=61944&includeref=dynamic

3st heavier.

Goode is a very naughty boy..............also a club player not an international.....just dosn't have gas, never has and never will

Just ignore butterfingers, he's a returning Welsh poster pretending to be English.

Goode is lacking a touch of pace but is our best tactical fullback and is a very intelligent option. He's nowhere near physical enough to be an international centre.

[quote="niwatts"]Just ignore butterfingers, he's a returning Welsh poster pretending to be English.[/quote

That would explain his lack of knowledge about English players. Anyone who had seen Goode play regularly wouldn't consider him a candidate for the 13 shirt. It also explains why he references Wales so much in his replies.

If he is Welsh, I would feel slightly foolish because I'm normally quite good at spotting a WUM!

But I don't think he is, just seems a genuine England fan thinking outside the box for his team

Why would I be a Welsh Wum? I have referenced Roberts, BOD, Davies, Smith Nonu JDV generally the best centres around.

I have also not disrespected any English players, except for being amazed that Goode is only 13 stone, that really does shock me, no way am I the only one surprised by that?!

This 'BF is a welsh Wum' idea has come from a 'new' poster who registered, logged in and started accusing me of not being a Glaws or England fan, moistly because 99% of my posts were anti PRL and pro RFU, go figure eh.

Where exactly is my lack of English players knowledge, byt claiming Goode has all the attributes to be a good centre (never said 13 specialist by the way)?

It is interesting, the witch hunt that has happened these days, I can't even comment on the Blues without being accused of being a Welsh Wum merchant, of which I have stated numerous times between uni and first few jobs being in Cardiff I have a soft spot for.

BF is the alias of a certain Cardiff Blues supporting member who retired his old moniker. He came back under English guise to post on recent European matters. He's not being mischievous in this thread, just following a similar line of rugby thinking to his last persona and showing that he doesn't know the players he is discussing as well as he presumes from his limited viewing of them.

nth wrote:BF is the alias of a certain Cardiff Blues supporting member who retired his old moniker.  He came back under English guise to post on recent European matters.  He's not being mischievous in this thread, just following a similar line of rugby thinking to his last persona and showing that he doesn't know the players he is discussing as well as he presumes from his limited viewing of them.

  See what I mean, wildfire. Clearly my Welsh bias highlights how I think Goode is superior a player, despite a slight strength defecit.

  As Davies, as I said above.

BamBam wrote:If he is Welsh, I would feel slightly foolish because I'm normally quite good at spotting a WUM!

But I don't think he is, just seems a genuine England fan thinking outside the box for his team

You've been had I'm afraid BamBam.  If you'be been on this site a while it shouldn't take you long to recognise who it's a reincarnation of from his posts.  Initially a bit of a WUM who turned into an occasionally insightful but generally off-message Welsh poster.

The BBC & Lancaster have confirmed what we knew about Corbisiero:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24707263

Article says that he is 'optimistic' that Hartley and Wilson will be fit. Considering we are two days out from the naming the squad, read into that what you will. It seems like Trinder has been carrying a knock too.

Not sure he's necessarily a WUM if he genuinely believes Goode could be a centre. I don't see it personally but it's an opinion.

Sam I think that lack of pace and attacking threat from full back unfortunately means that Alex Goode would be more suited to 10 in my opinion. He played England U20s there afterall.


My recommendation for him would be move to another club as a 10 but I am not sure who would take him. I think he does have the skills to be a decent 10 but needs more experience there. He's a decent playmaker, intelligent tactical kicker, decent place kicker but at Saracens too much competition at 10 means he's now a full back.

Hardly a surprise about Corbs...did Lancs really think he might have had a chance?

Ill be amazed if he plays in any of the AI's....in fact if i was Lancs i wouldnt pick him. No point risking him in these games. Get him back to saints to get fit.

His increasing injury problems means we MUST continue to give Mako and Marler experience at this level....as we just dont know if Corbs will be fit.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hardly a surprise about Corbs...did Lancs really think he might have had a chance?

Ill be amazed if he plays in any of the AI's....in fact if i was Lancs i wouldnt pick him. No point risking him in these games. Get him back to saints to get fit.

His increasing injury problems means we MUST continue to give Mako and Marler experience at this level....as we just dont know if Corbs will be fit.

Good point but it is worth remembering that the current injury is the other knee - not the 'long term problem' one - in that its just one of those things rather than being linked to underlying conditions - and needs to be considered on its own.

If the medics think he can play on it in a couple of weeks without risking it getting worse there is no reason why he should miss more games.

Aw right i didnt realise it was the other knee. Still he just seems plagued with problems.
I hope he can get a good spell uninjured but im not holding my breath...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aw right i didnt realise it was the other knee. Still he just seems plagued with problems.
I hope he can get a good spell uninjured but im not holding my breath...

Amen - he has rapidly become a very important player

What we now know is that the following have zero chance of being in the 23 for Australia due to injury/late recovery from injury...........

Corbisiero
Hartley
Wilson
Attwood
Trinder

There are others of course such as our first choice centre pairing but we already knew about those.

The names above can be added to the ranks of the walking wounded.

Youngs and Tomkins will have to start.

I wonder whether Lancaster is going to pull a gambler's fast one by not including either Flood or Burns on the bench ??

Conceivably he could instead opt for backline bench cover as follows.....

Dickson/Care
Burrell
Foden

With Twelvetrees covering 10

I'm not sure what Twelvetrees' or anyone else's goalkicking is like though.....

What happened to Trinder?

Tri,

It says Wilson and Hartley should be fine for the game. However it will be Youngs and Cole at 2 & 3 anyway.

Corbs is needed for the AB game. They have a massive pack make no mistake. A subs appearance vs. ARG should be enough before running out vs. the ABs to give the pack more steel.

If he's not ready though, not point risking further damage or time out. Theres no need to rush him back. Id rather he was fit for the 6n...and give Marler and Vunipola time on the pitch against the top teams.

I don't think he would be in squad if he wasn't going to be available, I think he'll be ready for ARG and NZ... but probably won't start the ARG match.

Lancaster's form on injury is always to be optimistic.

See re Corbisiero for latest example.

He likes to lead us on before inevitably giving us the bad news.

I read somewhere that Trinder had not trained yet.

Wilson and Hartley are hoped to be fit for Thursday.

In what universe is that good enough for inclusion in a test squad for a match vs the wallabies 2 days later?

Triangulation wrote:

....

Wilson and Hartley are hoped to be fit for Thursday.

In what universe is that good enough for inclusion in a test squad for a match vs the wallabies 2 days later?

Well it seemed to work for the Lions...

You know what Corbisiero will give you (aside from his injury record), surely its time to give Marler or Vunipola a chance to show what they can do if he isnt ready as opposed to rushing him back?

Assuming Tomkins looks set to start at 13 seeing as Burrell was released for the weekend? Unless of course Goode is played there, I mean he does have everything JD2 has, apparently..... I always think Goode looks and plays more like a 10 that can cover FB rather than a fulltime FB. See Priestlands past performances in the FB shirt and even Dan Biggar this weekend just gone (admittedly against the dragons). He seems to be very tactically aware, but not physical enough in any aspect for me, but thats nothing some training and protein shakes wont fix im sure.

Haven't read back through too far, who are people generally hoping for after this last weekends round of AP? For me it really strengthened the claims of Attwood/Burrell and that Foden isnt quite back to his tip top yet, glimpses of what he can do and some uncharacteristic errors. By default Brown deserves that 15 shirt for the Ais.

Comfort wrote:You know what Corbisiero will give you (aside from his injury record), surely its time to give Marler or Vunipola a chance to show what they can do if he isnt ready as opposed to rushing him back?

Assuming Tomkins looks set to start at 13 seeing as Burrell was released for the weekend? Unless of course Goode is played there, I mean he does have everything JD2 has, apparently..... I always think Goode looks and plays more like a 10 that can cover FB rather than a fulltime FB. See Priestlands past performances in the FB shirt and even Dan Biggar this weekend just gone (admittedly against the dragons). He seems to be very tactically aware, but not physical enough in any aspect for me, but thats nothing some training and protein shakes wont fix im sure.

Haven't read back through too far, who are people generally hoping for after this last weekends round of AP? For me it really strengthened the claims of Attwood/Burrell and that Foden isnt quite back to his tip top yet, glimpses of what he can do and some uncharacteristic errors. By default Brown deserves that 15 shirt for the Ais.

Talk to us about Attwood's performance.

There is strong support on these boards and in most commentaries that i have read for Attwood to come into our XV.

Some have gone as far as to call him a "necessity".

So please for the love of all the is good in the world let him become the 2nd row we need and have missed.

A necessity? Im not sure ive heard that one or would agree with it. He's not a deity...just yet anyway.

I think most people are pointing to him as the pack just seems to be missing a bit of oomp...we're missing a Simon Shaw, a Martin Johnson etc, and most think Attwood is the best fit at the minute. Slater is another potential. Garvey will never make it whilst Lancaster is there.

The one to watch for is Dom Barrow...the guy is a future England captain. He has been unbelieveable for us this season lineout, hes a big old boy...tackles all day, hits ruck after ruck, but he also has a rugby brain...he reads it so well...AND HE'S ONLY 20!!!!

Do we need Attwood? Are we weak at lock? I'm not sure thats where our problems lie, our lineout would improve with Youngs throwing in getting better (which was superb on the lions tour), and some continuity at LH and lock. Launchbury and Parling are very classy players, and Lawes is a specemin, Attwood would make 4 and we need to find the best combo between them, and give them the time needed on the park.

Corbisiero is going to be a great loss again, Marler doesn't seem to be able to take his club form upwards, but then he is a bit in and out and probably needs a run. Vunipola will have learnt a lot over the summer, and should be a much better player for it.

What I think we are lacking is ball carrying prowess, a SOB type player, Wood and Robshaw are very sound defencively, but our 8 options need progressing.

Great news on Dom Barrow.

Now GF

Please talk us through this yarn about Garvery and Lancaster.

There is this story doing the rounds that Lancaster hates him for some reason. No one can say why which leads me to believe it is garbage.

Do we need Attwood? Are we weak at lock?

No i dont think we're weak at lock. I think we have some very good athletic players.

I think that was the obvious ommision through the Wales game...we had absolutely noone who could make the hard yards when we were under the cosh. Thats why we are looking to Tom Youngs, Billy V, Mako V, Ben Morgan.

Marler doesn't seem to be able to take his club form upwards, but then he is a bit in and out and probably needs a run.

I think thats the thing. Marler needs a few games, as does Mako. Marler was excellent in Argentina (against an Poor Argentina side) possibly one of the picks of the forwards, yet the likes of Attwood, Webber are praised for their performances, but people say Marler only performed well because it was a poor argentina side. I think thats a little unfair.

Lets see how him and Mako do in the AI's...

Tri, Englands first choice pack seems to be Corbs/Youngs/Cole/Parling/Launchberry/Wood/Morgan/Robshaw. Thats fine when they'll all fit but still a little lacking in weight and core power against the bigger packs at the top level. Take out Corbs and Morgan (both proving to be pretty injury prone) and you seriously lose power in the tight exchanges. Someone like Attwood would come in and provide that fight and let players like Parling/Robshaw and the rest of the more mobile carriers to get out slightly wider where they excel and can do some more damage.

Im not saying Attwoods the answer to Englands prayers, but hes one step forward to addressing their weakness up front imo.

Garvey's another who could add that grunt (of a number of players coming through might I add) but I think Attwood's earned a shot at the test team and Garvey has a number of very good players in front of him.

Dont get me wrong though, I'm welsh, please pick as lightweight a pack as possible for the 6ns  

I don't think an Attwood style lock would've helped us that much v Wales though, our scrum was shot (legally or illegally I don't want to get into that argument), Vunipola and Youngs really struggled (Cole was just infuriated and confused), but both have toured with the lions, did very well and will be better for it. Launchbury and PArling for me are 2 of the classiest locks around, but without carrying options in the front row, or many in the back row one of them have to be sacrificed for a go forward warrior type I think.

It's hard to take too much out of the Argentina games, allbeit weakened or not it is still Argentina in Argentina, and to come away with such a style of victory will help every player involved.

I'm still not 100% convinced that Attwood is needed at lock, but without him our lack of oomph in other positions are highlighted, 8, and LH are going to be very interesting positions, as is seeing if Youngs brings his Lions form to the international stage

The Vunipolas could well be the answer going forward at LH and 8 as back-up/challenges to Corbs/Morgan. They're a bit 'raw' to have a consistent impact at test level currently, thats why I think someone like Attwood could provide a good, immediate impact.

The beauty of a player like Attwood is that he can play at 5. He has learned to lead a line-out. That would enable us to play 4. J Launchbury 5. D Attwood 19. C Lawes - purely in terms of go forward on the field that's our best combination.

Parling is a Lion and apparently a leader. That's fine as long as he can run a truly top class line-out. If not I don't see his other work as saving him from the drop.

Carl Fearns won MOM is the game against Glaws and he might be an option in the 6N at 6 if he keeps stringing the performances together. Or at least make an excellent bench option covering across the BR much in the style of Haskell but with better carrying.

Good to hear Dom Barrow is going so well at such a young age. Couldn't be in a better environment if you ask me. Consistent game time, hard working pack and a master tutor. He will be one to watch for a Saxons call-up. How much has he been playing at 6 though?