Said from day one,looks like i may be right

Soon as i heard about this English French competition i said the English are fools getting in bed with the French because they would stab them in the back at the first chance.
The French Union is now blocking any such Competition from happening, take into account most of the French favour the top 14 " soon to be expanded to top 16" over Europe anyway what trouble will they have from reverting to type and submit?!

England are now owned by BT and cant stay in the HC anyway because SKY own the rights of the HC!
The English look more premature than little Billy on Prom night. 

Couldn't happen to a better bunch as far as im concerned! Wot Wot chin up old boys and sip on some Pimms.

Depends on whether the LNR will bow to the FFR or are they up for a fight.

I don't think its a stab in the back - I think the PRL completely misread the situation thinking  money would triumph over everything else

Watch this space,
Nothing better than a shoulder pushing bully being put in his place.

Would be nice if you stopped this sanctomonious clap trap. Get off your high horse.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/23/heineken-cup-french-clubs-new-event

I don't think the French clubs will back down.

The RFU has not taken the same stance as the French rugby union.


Edward Griffiths, CEO of Saracens talks sense:


"If the International Rugby Board or the unions try to stop the Rugby Champions Cup, two things will happen," said the Saracens chief executive, Edward Griffiths in Abu Dhabi on Monday. "First, it is almost inconceivable that a governing body of a sport would prevent a competition taking place which brings £60-70m into the game. Second, if they did try to stop that, there would be no European rugby.

"The English and French clubs have been very clear they are not going to go back to an ERC tournament: no European rugby at all would obviously not suit anybody. If you look at the history of professional rugby, it has always been about this balance between union control and the clubs. That has been a fraught balance at times.

"The BT Sport television deal has given the English clubs more of a chance to redress that imbalance. The unions should run the national team and some of the grassroots and the clubs should run the club game. That is what happens in most mature professional sports. I think it is just a matter of time before that happens in rugby."

No - the CEO of saracens talks what is sense to him. The FFR have a much stronger hold over the LNR teams than the rfu do over the prl teams due to the statutory basis on which sport is organised in France.

The rest of us know the PRL proposals would be disastrous for anyone outside the prl and lnr and will resist it. If the PRL clubs continue to play hardball they will be the ones with no euro comp. no BT deal ( as they have nothing to sell) and having to compromise.

The french clubs will have to back down if the FFR insists. they have no choice - its enshrined in the law and also there is other subtle leverage like club grounds belonging to local government and so on.

"In France, it is a legal matter. The French Ministry for Sport invokes the ‘delegation de service public’, by which authority is discharged down through the system from the government to a federation to a national league. It would appear that the French clubs can be arraigned. "

From the telegraph

TJ please stop the sanctomonious stuff like "the rest of us know the PRL proposals would be disastrous for anyone outside the prl and lnr".

Perhaps it's time that the French clubs stand up to the bullying of the FFR and the other unions. The FFR are foolish for not at least listening to their club's grievances.

The RFU in this case have been far smarter.

You don't get it do you? The unions are trying to bully the clubs, not the other way round.

The unions want control of everything. The clubs are challenging this.

Club competitions should be run by clubs. Internationals run by unions.

Why? why should club competitioins be run by clubs? why should the PRL restructure the entire european game to advantage them and disadvantage the others?

No where have I see any logical case made for all the reduction in teams having to come from the Rabo unions.

This is the major sticking point and no way on earth can the Rabo unions agree to a reduction in representation of 40% and no reduction in representation from the English and French.

I never understand the difference between grassroots and clubs. Sarries does as much to grow rugby or should do as other clubs in smaller places. What he is really saying is let us professional rugby run ourselves and you keep your head out while we do what we want, while you fund the amature game because its not worth it to us.

I can see the T14 going to the T16. We well could see the FFR push for that. It would also see their packed schedule reduce which makes the clubs and unions happy.

As it is the T14 is basised on playing your first choice players at home and seconds away. Any franglo cup will be the LV part 2.

I think we may yet see a certain number of english clubs joining the Pro12 fultime with them having promotion relegation with the bottom english team. May sound unlikely now but it will happen within five years.

beshocked wrote:TJ please stop the sanctomonious stuff like "the rest of us know the PRL proposals would be disastrous for anyone outside the prl and lnr".

Perhaps it's time that the French clubs stand up to the bullying of the FFR and the other unions. The FFR are foolish for not at least listening to their club's grievances.

The RFU in this case have been far smarter.

You don't get it do you? The unions are trying to bully the clubs, not the other way round.

The unions want control of everything. The clubs are challenging this.

Club competitions should be run by clubs. Internationals run by unions.

man, you are one deluded puppy!

"Said from day one,looks like i may be right"

and there was me thinking your were talking about your username.  

alasbut100ofus how I am deluded? Because I disagree with the blinkered view of yourself and other sanctomonious Pro12 fan boys?

TJ when I say clubs I mean the likes of Ospreys and Treviso too. Treviso should have a say too. Treviso would have an equal vote to Leicester for example. Edinburgh would have 1 vote just like Saracens.

I know you like to demonise the PRL but my club for example has an excellent community programme and decent academy. Same with most other clubs in the AP. They do a lot of good.


The problem is TJ you don't think the Pro12 clubs should make concessions.

The reason why I think you should - the English and French clubs contribute far more to the current HC than the Pro12 sides financially and literally.

Bar Munster and Leinster, most of the Pro12 sides have performed poorly in the HC.


You don't seem to understand this.

Without the English and French clubs there is no European competition.

You are hoping the French clubs break away from the English clubs - it might happen but hasn't yet.

Any competition without the English and French is hugely devalued.

I am quite happy for the pro 12 clubs to make concessions - indeed they have offered them. Its the PRL who refuse to negotiate or to concede anything. Its as if they want the ERC talks to fail. 6/6/6 cannever be acceptable to the RABO unions.

TJ I think the PRL would settle with 6,6,8. That's not unreasonable.

Where's the proof that the Pro12 clubs have made concessions?

Do you have proof of what the PRL would accept or not?

Of course they want the ERC talks to fail. They want a club run competition. After all it's clubs who take part in the current HC. The ERC have had a lot of opportunities to sort this out but were happy to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the English and French clubs.

The English and French clubs don't want to be bullied by unions.

I completely am supportive of that point of view.

I want there to be a competition involving English,French,Irish,Italian,Scottish,Welsh clubs and perhaps some from other countries but I don't want the unions to bully clubs.

It's about balance - as it stands unions have too much power. They don't even do a particularly good job in Scotland and Wales for example.

A competition involving clubs should be run by clubs. International scene should be the domain of unions. By the way no I don't want internationals to be diminished in importance. I want unions and clubs to work together but also be separate.

Why should the euro cup be run by clubs? what is the rationale behind this?

It's a club competition. Clubs players take part in the Euro cup.

beshocked wrote:It's a club competition. Clubs players take part in the Euro cup.

Unfortunately for your version of reality, due to circumstance, many of the other clubs (provinces, regions, districts) are run/controlled by unions - you may not like that, but that is the way it is, and it necessitates union involvement as they have a direct and significant interest. That will not change because you keep spouting the same tired old line about clubs

Beshocked you made a comment yesterday that Edinburgh who was so poor shouldn't be in the HC as they only had one semi in 17. Excluding the season just gone how many semis had Sarries made. And do you consider Sarries before the money the same as Sarries after the money.

beshocked wrote:It's a club competition. Clubs players take part in the Euro cup.

so why shoulod they run it - and aspointed out the ajrity of the RABO teams are not clubs - they are branches of the union

The three most successful unions do top down structures. The NH teams that have followed them have got stronger then they were before they changed.

Why would the rest of the world want a union v club fight ever few years

if this all backfires on the PRL then i wonder how the clubs in england will feel. They've been sold this dream competition involving french teams but it seems someone forgot to tell them the french teams can't decide what they do.

The three SH national teams have ever been the most successful in Amatuer and pro era. Not sure how that relates to the club game.

Because the blueprint they follow is a top down one wit the interests of the international teams at heart. the opposite of the PRL proposals

Or are you happy to sacrifice international rugby for the sake of a few club owners who are running clubs that live beyond their means?

Brendan wrote:Beshocked you made a comment yesterday that Edinburgh who was so poor shouldn't be in the HC as they only had one semi in 17.  Excluding the season just gone how many semis had Sarries made.  And do you consider Sarries before the money the same as Sarries after the money.

2 semi finals in 7 HC competitions with a win rate of 61% in all HC matches.

Our worst HC season was 2 years ago - when we had 2 of the strongest sides in Europe in our group - Clermont and Leinster.

My side have always been quite strong in Europe. Not as strong as the likes of Leicester,Leinster and Munster but still better than a lot of sides.

Even in overall AP head to heads Sarries beat most sides.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/saracens.php?section=4

Only Gloucester,Wasps and Leicester have a positive head to head vs us.

beshocked wrote:

Brendan wrote:Beshocked you made a comment yesterday that Edinburgh who was so poor shouldn't be in the HC as they only had one semi in 17.  Excluding the season just gone how many semis had Sarries made.  And do you consider Sarries before the money the same as Sarries after the money.

2 semi finals in 7 HC competitions with a win rate of 61% in all HC matches.

Our worst HC season was 2 years ago - when we had 2 of the strongest sides in Europe in our group - Clermont and Leinster.

My side have always been quite strong in Europe. Not as strong as the likes of Leicester,Leinster and Munster but still better than a lot of sides.

Even in overall AP head to heads Sarries beat most sides.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/saracens.php?section=4

Only Gloucester,Wasps and Leicester have a positive head to head vs us.

And how did they do in the wonderful Amlin. They must have walked them as Connacht hold their own in that.

I also guess newcastle should also get in on merit. Their win rate must be really good too.

Brendan wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Brendan wrote:Beshocked you made a comment yesterday that Edinburgh who was so poor shouldn't be in the HC as they only had one semi in 17.  Excluding the season just gone how many semis had Sarries made.  And do you consider Sarries before the money the same as Sarries after the money.

2 semi finals in 7 HC competitions with a win rate of 61% in all HC matches.

Our worst HC season was 2 years ago - when we had 2 of the strongest sides in Europe in our group - Clermont and Leinster.

My side have always been quite strong in Europe. Not as strong as the likes of Leicester,Leinster and Munster but still better than a lot of sides.

Even in overall AP head to heads Sarries beat most sides.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/saracens.php?section=4

Only Gloucester,Wasps and Leicester have a positive head to head vs us.

And how did they do in the wonderful Amlin.  They must have walked them as Connacht hold their own in that.

I also guess newcastle should also get in on merit.  Their win rate must be really good too.

Brendan we have a 78% win rate in the Amlin. 43 wins, 1 draw, 11 losses.

Newcastle's amlin record is 69% - 56 wins, 25 losses,

HC record is 6 wins, 7 losses - 46% (close to Ulster's. )

Connacht's win rate is 51% in the Amlin - 50 wins, 48 losses,

HC record is 4 wins, 8 losses - 33.3333%

So in conclusion Connacht are far worse than Newcastle let alone most other English sides.

In 2009/10, Sarries competed in the Amlin (and failed to progress to knockouts) - the next year they won the Premiership. That's how much Amlin can improve a team!  

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:In 2009/10, Sarries competed in the Amlin (and failed to progress to knockouts) - the next year they won the Premiership. That's how much Amlin can improve a team!  

Don't forget we had Toulon and Castres in our group. Heard of them? 

Only 1 team qualified which was Toulon despite us winning 5 out of 6 games - doing the double vs Castres and convincingly beating Toulon at home. Got 0 ranking points too which was a massive joke too.

Not enough bonus points, a lesson that looks to be learned!

nathan wrote:"Said from day one,looks like i may be right"

and there was me thinking your were talking about your username.  

  aren't you a funny little b!tch.

As read on another forum
The LNR like the premier league won't negotiate with the Erc
I would have said they are very much on board this is their chairman
[www.lerugbynistere.fr]. It's in French but basically it says if the FFR try to make them play in the Hcup they'll just send Federal 1 teams. The FFR really *** up when over riding them about Lux. They managed to achieve the practically unachievable unite the lot of them. If they now try to force the Club's hand they will go to the European court and apparently are likely to win about Ffr restrictive practices. The Vice President of the league has been in discussions with government ministers about the unsuitability of a load of amateurs having power over professional sport and apparently this is also bearing fruit
Not looking so certain now

Anyone know why Beshocked hops between european rugby dispute threads talking about HEC winning percentages, IRB rankings, the IRFU and Wales losing to Japan in the summer?  

Not sure about most of them but the last is because it's funny.  

beshocked wrote:Edward Griffiths, CEO of Saracens:


"If the International Rugby Board or the unions try to stop the Rugby Champions Cup, two things will happen," said the Saracens chief executive, Edward Griffiths in Abu Dhabi on Monday. "First, it is almost inconceivable that a governing body of a sport would prevent a competition taking place which brings £60-70m into the game. Second, if they did try to stop that, there would be no European rugby.

"The English and French clubs have been very clear they are not going to go back to an ERC tournament."

Unfortunately for Mr Griffiths, there is life and rugby in England and France outside the PRL and the LNR. Let's say the PRL and LNR clubs don't participate in any ERC-run tournament; the RFU and FFR could simply enter other clubs from lower divisions. They might not be that competitive, but it would give the lie to his assertion that 'there would be no European rugby' without PRL and LNR clubs. It's supremely arrogant to assume that the PRL is English rugby and that the LNR is French rugby.

Yes LP, they could.

I reckon FFR would try - but they would have to go some way down the pecking order as I am pretty sure the second Tier are also signed up to LNR.

I very much doubt that RFU would go down this route. A Martyn Thomas led RFU may have done, expecially as he wanted to reinstate amateurism and wanted the clubs to all go bankrupt, but the current management know that for rugby to grow there needs to be a strong symbioisis between the clubs and country.


The Sky TV deal insists on English and French clubs playing. So if the ERC competition is to go ahead, they would have to sort something out.

Yes, the LNR covers the top 2 French leagues. The point is that France and England could still enter teams in an ERC-run tournament, thus fulfilling the Sky deal and leaving the RFU and FFR (let alone the IRB) even less reason to sanction the PRL and LNR's proposed tournament.

In the inconceivable case that the RFU did turn away from the PRL where would the English championship sit in this debate? Would they stick with the PRL or be prepared to enter teams (either individually or combined) into this mythical new european competition?

I'd say that a continuation of a Heino-style ERC tournament is decidely less 'mythical' than the proposed Champions Cup, which, correct me if I'm wrong, has been sanctioned by precisely no one.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd say that a continuation of a Heino-style ERC tournament is decidely less 'mythical' than the proposed Champions Cup, which, correct me if I'm wrong, has been sanctioned by precisely no one.

Agreed, but only by the slimmest margins.

One needs sanctioning - and right now FFR will not do so without major concessions from LNR.
The other needs the TV money Sky provides, itself dependent on English and French participation.


Personally i still believe we will see two seasons with the Pro12 being the only European competition.

just to clarify one thing :
- the LNR sole role is to organise the professional game on french territory, this includes top14 and pro d2 (dont think federale 1 is in their portfolio eventhough its semi pro these day).
- the LNR takes all their powers from the FFR. such mandates can be in theory discontinued...
 
for instance the FFR casually reminded the LNR recently that they can only sign a new tv agreement for 2014 onwards with their consent (this is the most important thing for french club who hope to get a 100M€ deal with the help of the new entrant in french tv).
now the FFR reminding the LNR that they cannot take part in a internatinal competition without their consent as well... although i suspect the FFR clique to have some (financial?) interest in the ERC to still exist ... this is just a case of a daddy reminding his teenager brat who is in charge...although they are not really in charge as the kid might just runaway!
At the end of the day we are likely to see a trade off :
- LNR gets to do what they want. in my opinion the franglo cup is either just noise or possibly just a back up in case the tv deal doesnt go through
- FFR gets more access to players for preparation of test matches, 6N etc... and also get to organise an extra international game which means more €€ to support their new stadium project.
 
the latter is the key thing as far as I am concerned so a T16 with no cup would be better for the french international team than a T14 with the current ERC set up.

Cheers non amis

Great to hear a French perspective.

The Saint I hop between them because I need to give most of you PRO12 fan boys a reality check.

Luckless Pedestrian it's the English clubs who provide the players for the English international side. Same with the French clubs and the French international side.

beshocked wrote:Luckless Pedestrian it's the English clubs who provide the players for the English international side. Same with the French clubs and the French international side.

Yes, I know. What's your point?

What I don't understand is the power that the clubs have.

In SA, OZ and NZ, it is the national unions that dictate, arrange, and negotiate the different levels and structure of rugby.

In other words SARU, the NZRU and the ARU decides what competitions there are.

It seems that the PRL and LNR basically wants to negotiate their own competitions and how it will be structured.

What do the FFRU and RFU actually do then?

My point is they are important. You try to reduce their importance.

further to that, the Structure of the IRB runs

IRB - National Unions and clubs/franchises/provinces underneath.

But it seems in England and France, the clubs don't see themselves within that structure, hence them believing that are more independent than they are or should be?

Beshocked, they seem to have overstated their own importance - that rugby in their respective countries begins and ends with them.

Well in a sense it does begin and end with them. The English and French international sides will be pretty screwed without the players from those clubs.

Do you think all those players would stay at those clubs if there was better money to be made elsewhere in Europe?

Also, I could have sworn you've posted several times that the international game and the club game are mutually exclusive. Not that simple, is it?

beshocked wrote:Well in a sense it does begin and end with them.  The English and French international sides will be pretty screwed without the players from those clubs.

That statement says a lot more than what you just said there.

The clubs operate under the auspices of the RFU and FFRU, don't they?

It is sanctioned via the IRB and national Unions?

In other words without the RFU, the FFRU and the IRB, they have no controlling body?

What if the RFU and FFRU kicked them out, and started a new structure with which they have more control?

Where does that leave the PRL and LNR?