Anti-Anglo Thread

[Scrumpy]

Thought I save time, rather than enter post after post of disgust aimed towards PRL and 'The Greedy English' in the Rugby Champions Cup threads just post you hatred here instead and allow fans to discuss rugby in other threads.

[TJ]

Poor troll. You have to understand the difference between distrust of the PRL and hatred of the english! I have said I love to see the big matchups of the giants of europ rugby and unfortunatly right now that does no include my team.

[Scrumpy]

Not trolling just fed up with all the hatred shown towards English rugby fans for wanting a fair deal for our clubs. Which at the end of the day is the bread and butter of our game.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Not trolling just fed up with all the hatred shown towards English rugby fans for wanting a fair deal for our clubs. Which at the end of the day is the bread and butter of our game.

Think you maybe forgot to take your anti-overly-sensitive pills this morning, Scrumpy - I've seen plenty of disgust at the behaviour of PRL and individuals connected with it, but none at 'the English' nor at posters on this board - time to take a breather?

[TJ]

Its not a fair deal tho is it? 40% reduction in places for 4 unions,no reduction in places for 2 unions. the english and french clubs already get more money and more votes that the rest.

[Scrumpy]

What can be fairer than having teams earn their place in the HC rather then being gifted it year after year???

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I only signed up a few days ago as it looked like there was some sensible rugby talked here. I have to say I am a bit disappointed with some of the bile directed towards me and others who are in favour of clubs getting a better deal. There is clearly some paranoid hysteria bubbles out whenever any mention if re-jigging the HC comes up. Hardly makes for sensible discussion.

[TJ]

There is a lot of sensible rugby talked on here. the restructuring of the euro cup is an emotive subject but most of us can see it in the broader picture. I myself have discussed possible comprimises a fair amount

why ave you not discussed any rugby but merely and very patronisingly parroted the PRL line without any consideration for others point of view?

do you work for the PRL?

[Tattie Scones RRN]

TJ, Asbo......there is nothing better than seeing:

'This post was made by Scrumpy who is currently on your ignore list.'

Lovely  

[TJ]

What can be fairer than having teams earn their place in the HC rather then being gifted it year after year???

No problem with that hence my acceptance of 5/5/8 + 2 as being an acceptable compromise. You loose the two weakest teams from the Rabo, it makes the middle teams in the rabo at the end of the season have something to fight for but is far less damaging to the smaller unions than the PRL proposals. its still the Rabo unions giving an the PRL taking but its fairer

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I only signed up a few days ago as it looked like there was some sensible rugby talked here. I have to say I am a bit disappointed with some of the bile directed towards me and others who are in favour of clubs getting a better deal. There is clearly some paranoid hysteria bubbles out whenever any mention if re-jigging the HC comes up. Hardly makes for sensible discussion.

I'm going to need to see evidence?

[GunsGerms]

I dislike and distrust the PRL. I like English rugby, England, English people and the England rugby team. The fact that this needs to be explained to some trolls is sad.

The PRL needs to be disbanded and realigned with the RFU and the best interests of English rugby and for the good of the game. Thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.

[TJ]

absolutely Guns - I love to see the best teams play each other. I love to see the top english clubsplay the best of the rest. its even better if they are beaten but its these big matchups that I love to watch

I am actually english by birth

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I only signed up a few days ago as it looked like there was some sensible rugby talked here. I have to say I am a bit disappointed with some of the bile directed towards me and others who are in favour of clubs getting a better deal. There is clearly some paranoid hysteria bubbles out whenever any mention if re-jigging the HC comes up. Hardly makes for sensible discussion.

I'm going to need to see evidence?

see above. ad hominem attacks attempting to undermine the credibility of my posts by claiming i work for the PRL would be a good example. on a fora such as this i would hope to see people play the ball not the man.

[TJ]

So do you work for the PRL or an alied organisation? You could deny it. you came on here and all you have done is parrot the PRL line, denigrate anyone who disagrees with you, refused to see any argument against the PRL position and have been patronising and insulting including offering me a £1000 bet and saying its chicken feed to you.

[Scrumpy]

I only signed up a few days ago as it looked like there was some sensible rugby talked here. I have to say I am a bit disappointed with some of the bile directed towards me and others who are in favour of clubs getting a better deal. There is clearly some paranoid hysteria bubbles out whenever any mention if re-jigging the HC comes up. Hardly makes for sensible discussion.

I feel for you fella, for me my club comes first if they feel they're not getting a fair deal then I see no reason why they shouldn't push for one.
I don't understand why our clubs should be held back by a few unions who have failed to promote the game in their own Countries yet they are given a place year after year in the HC.

My club Bath haven't earned the right to take part that’s fair enough but I fail to see why Zebre get a place!

ERC aren't fit for purpose, leaving a contract to enter its final year without negotiating a new deal sums them up imo

[GunsGerms]

Ad hominem is a phrase that only a forum phantom would use in my experience.

[Submachine]

I only signed up a few days ago as it looked like there was some sensible rugby talked here. I have to say I am a bit disappointed with some of the bile directed towards me and others who are in favour of clubs getting a better deal. There is clearly some paranoid hysteria bubbles out whenever any mention if re-jigging the HC comes up. Hardly makes for sensible discussion.

I feel for you fella, for me my club comes first if they feel they're not getting a fair deal then I see no reason why they shouldn't push for one.
I don't understand why our clubs should be held back by a few unions who have failed to promote the game in their own Countries yet they are given a place year after year in the HC.

My club Bath haven't earned the right to take part that’s fair enough but I fail to see why Zebre get a place!

ERC aren't fit for purpose, leaving a contract to enter its final year without negotiating a new deal sums them up imo

Perhaps if Bath relocate to Italy and become one of the top two sides they could qualify at Zebres expense. While your at it send Spurs up to Scotland and see if they can't take the champions league spot from those pesky Glaswegians.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

this is all rather sad that you think i must be a PRL employee if i happen to agree with the desires and negotiating position of LNR/PRL in the face of ERC inertia. as if only paid staff could agree with LNR/PRL? as if no independent minded person could sympathise? really?

for the avoidance of doubt, i am english, managing director of a financial services company based in London. Don't support a particular club, although Harlequins would be my nearest.

My interest in this - the clue is in my handle. Its all about the incentives. Let the market prevail. some amount of regulation is needed to set the overall framework, but i strongly believe that unions have no place in the Heineken Cup. it is a club cup, and if celtic nations want to use HC money to subsidize national player retention that is fine, but then why would they be surprised when the PRL/LNR eventually takes exception to that?

What is a forum phantom? ah yes, i see you also are pretending that my opinions cannot be real or reasonable. nice.

[Mad for Chelsea]

The PRL needs to be disbanded and realigned with the RFU and the best interests of English rugby and for the good of the game. Thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.

and therein lies a big difference between you and a fair number of English fans. You think the all rugby should be pretty much controlled by the Unions and geared towards the international game. English fans reckon there's no reason Club Rugby can't exist in its own right, and don't necessarily want to see the HC simply as a step up towards to international game.

I also think this is one of the real reasons we've reached the current crisis.

Surprised to see the LNR don't get any of your ire though...

[TJ]

So itsallabouttheincentives are you going to deny working for the PRL or an allied organisation?
edit  ah - you sort of have done but still the weasel words
double edit so let the market prevail and to hell with the wider consequences. Just let the prl gain all the power and money and it doesn't matter if its is at the expense of the weaker unions and a competitive NH international game. all will be rosy in your world if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

[beshocked]

Well said Mad for Chelsea.

This is quite clearly clubs vs unions. The English and French clubs believe the unions have too much power. Something I completely agree with.

An European cup competition should be run by clubs. It's the players from clubs who play after all.

The Unions domain should remain in the international game.

[GunsGerms]

The PRL needs to be disbanded and realigned with the RFU and the best interests of English rugby and for the good of the game. Thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.

and therein lies a big difference between you and a fair number of English fans. You think the all rugby should be pretty much controlled by the Unions and geared towards the international game. English fans reckon there's no reason Club Rugby can't exist in its own right, and don't necessarily want to see the HC simply as a step up towards to international game.

I also think this is one of the real reasons we've reached the current crisis.

Surprised to see the LNR don't get any of your ire though...

More or less correct. The main thing you left out being that club rugby will always exist under the current structures. It just wont be allowed smother international rugby which should be and is foremost in the IRB and ERCs vision for the game.

Furthermore, basically because the Rabo includes 4 unions it will always be easier for the likes of Zebre to qualify than Bath for example. There is no solution to that problem because any solution just tips the balance to far in English or France rugbys favour as they already have 5 guarenteed places in the Hcup.

We are already at the point of equilibrum in a complex equation where there are numerous factors and considerations to take into account!!! Its not just about making English clubs happy yet their proposals only serve themselves.

[TJ]

Well said Mad for Chelsea.

This is quite clearly clubs vs unions. The English and French clubs believe the unions have too much power. Something I completely agree with.

An European cup competition should be run by clubs. It's the players from clubs who play after all.

The Unions domain should remain in the international game.

Why? you and others assert this but I have yet to see an explanation that makes any sense as to why.

[TJ]

Rabo is 4 unions

[itsallabouttheincentives]

So itsallabouttheincentives are you going to deny working for the PRL or an allied organisation?
edit  ah - you sort of have done but still the weasel words
double edit so let the market prevail and to hell with the wider consequences.  Just let the prl gain all the power and money and it doesn't matter if its is at the expense of the weaker unions and a competitive NH international game.  all will be rosy in your world if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

if you are going to quote, why not quote in full

Let the market prevail. some amount of regulation is needed to set the overall framework, but i strongly believe that unions have no place in the Heineken Cup.

claims like yours are why this discussion is not sensible. global thermonuclear rugby meltdown if the HC is run by clubs with 1 vote each (which still gives unions plenty of votes) and more money for all? bit dramatic, no?

[GunsGerms]

Rabo is 4 unions

Indeed. Amended my post.

[LordDowlais]

God, some people are tiresome, for the record, I do not hate England, English rugby and English people, some of my best friends are English. What I do not like are blinkered posters who will only see things their own way, and that is not only on this subject, but I have given reasons and pointed out why I have given said reasons and all I am told is that I am talking rubbish without any explanations or arguments to support their points of view. Look, as it stands, if the powerful clubs and the PRL get their way, then when will it stop ? The next thing could be the six nations or their own league and the RFU will be made redundant, they way I see it there are certain factors of this whole debacle who are only in it for themselves, at least the union has a responsibility for every level of rugby, the most accurate thing I have read in all this, I cannot remember who wrote it, either poorfour or portnoy, I cannot remember, but it was said that the PRL have a good hand but they seem intent on blowing it by going over the top in what they want, if they bankrupt everybody else there will be no game, and that is what I agree with most.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The PRL needs to be disbanded and realigned with the RFU and the best interests of English rugby and for the good of the game. Thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.

and therein lies a big difference between you and a fair number of English fans. You think the all rugby should be pretty much controlled by the Unions and geared towards the international game. English fans reckon there's no reason Club Rugby can't exist in its own right, and don't necessarily want to see the HC simply as a step up towards to international game.

I also think this is one of the real reasons we've reached the current crisis.

Surprised to see the LNR don't get any of your ire though...

More or less correct. The main difference being club rugby will always exist under the current structures. It just wont be allowed smother international rugby which should be and is foremost in the IRB and ERCs vision for the game.

Furthermore, basically because the Rabo includes 3 unions it will always be easier for the likes of Zebre to qualify than Bath for example. There is no solution to that problem because any solution just tips the balance to far in English or France rugbys favour as they already have 5 guarenteed places in the Hcup.

We are already at the point of equilibrum in a complex equation where there are numerous factors and considerations to take into account!!! Its not just about making English clubs happy yet their proposals only serve themselves.

"international rugby which should be and is foremost in the IRB and ERCs vision for the game". The ERC has no role, not in theory, not in practice, and not by corporate charter, in the international game. this is a the core problem. you think it should be the ERC's role, when it patently is not. ERC is, as the name implies, to run the European Rugby Cup, a club compeition. it has nowt to do with international rugby at all. Now the unions might do. but ERC, no.

[GunsGerms]

So itsallabouttheincentives are you going to deny working for the PRL or an allied organisation?
edit  ah - you sort of have done but still the weasel words
double edit so let the market prevail and to hell with the wider consequences.  Just let the prl gain all the power and money and it doesn't matter if its is at the expense of the weaker unions and a competitive NH international game.  all will be rosy in your world if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

if you are going to quote, why not quote in full

Let the market prevail. some amount of regulation is needed to set the overall framework, but i strongly believe that unions have no place in the Heineken Cup.

claims like yours are why this discussion is not sensible. global thermonuclear rugby meltdown if the HC is run by clubs with 1 vote each (which still gives unions plenty of votes) and more money for all? bit dramatic, no?

Its possible that there will be no short term impact but it certainly opens to door for developments that will be very detrimental to European rugby. Why take such an unnecessary chance for little reward? Makes no sense especially given that the Heineken Cup is already the greatest club rugby tournament in the world.

[TJ]

But you have failed to explain why this should be so - merely assserting without any explanation is no argument.

You fail to understand that most of the Rabo teams are not clubs  they are subsidiaries of the unions.  

and its not more money for all - its a lot more for the PRL and not significantly more to the Rabo unions according to the PRL. this would increase inequality and make the rabo teams compete on a much less even playing field as they would have much smaller budgets compared to the PRL teams.  the reduction in exposure to top level rugby would also amage the smaller national teams

However youhavenailed your colours to the mast now.  Might is right, concentrate power and money ina small number of clubshands and to hellwiththe consequnces.

i am prepared to explain my reasoning - you might dissagree but I would like to see how you can expalin yours.  why should the clubs run a european competition.

[beshocked]

Well said Mad for Chelsea.

This is quite clearly clubs vs unions. The English and French clubs believe the unions have too much power. Something I completely agree with.

An European cup competition should be run by clubs. It's the players from clubs who play after all.

The Unions domain should remain in the international game.

Why? you and others assert this but I have yet to see an explanation that makes any sense as to why.  

It's because you stick your head in the sand just like the ERC.

The ERC is incompetent. The current status quo is unsatisfactory.

The Pro12 sides generally perform poorly in the HC and most add little value to the current HC.

Most pro12 sides contribute little to the HC yet get auto qualification and a big fat amount of financial benefit on a platter.

The European club scene needs a restructure - the Pro12 sides are digging their heels in - not wanting a restructure.

The Pro12 sides don't seem to care about sides outside the Pro12.

The Unions have far too big an influence/stranglehold on club rugby.

[TJ]

Again assertions but no reasoning

[itsallabouttheincentives]

So itsallabouttheincentives are you going to deny working for the PRL or an allied organisation?
edit  ah - you sort of have done but still the weasel words
double edit so let the market prevail and to hell with the wider consequences.  Just let the prl gain all the power and money and it doesn't matter if its is at the expense of the weaker unions and a competitive NH international game.  all will be rosy in your world if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

if you are going to quote, why not quote in full

Let the market prevail. some amount of regulation is needed to set the overall framework, but i strongly believe that unions have no place in the Heineken Cup.

claims like yours are why this discussion is not sensible. global thermonuclear rugby meltdown if the HC is run by clubs with 1 vote each (which still gives unions plenty of votes) and more money for all? bit dramatic, no?

Its possible that there will be no short term impact but it certainly opens to door for developments that will be very detrimental to European rugby. Why take such an unnecessary chance for little reward? Makes no sense especially given that the Heineken Cup is already the greatest club rugby tournament in the world.

you might be right. but does that mean the LNR/PRL should accept the status quo? I think the fact this status quo has been enforced for so long is really the reason why it has so spectacularly exploded now. we may not have been aware of the unhappiness behind closed doors so its a bit of a shock to us.

[beshocked]

TJ I have already time and again shown how poor most Pro12 sides are in the HC with statistics.

You ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

[TJ]

yes I understand that - the same could be said of some of the PRL clubs. However why is that a justification for the clubs to run the euro cup tho? I have no isuse with loosing a couple of the weakest Rabo teams even tho it would probably be my team right now s long as they have a chance to get back in.

How many euro cups have the PRL won recently? How many wins from the Rabo?

So why does some weak entrants from the Rabo mean the clubs should run it?

[beshocked]

TJ It's a reason why the English and French clubs are unsatisfied with the current format.

The amount of euro cups won recently is irrelevant, they still regularly beat most of the Pro12 sides.

Please stop hanging onto the coat tails of Munster and Leinster. Without them the Pro12 situation looks incredibly bleak.

The status quo is unsatisfactory, the clubs of England and France want change and justifiably so.

[LordDowlais]

beshocked, I am trying, really I am trying to wrap my head around your arguments on this but for the life of me I cannot come to terms with what you are implying, please do not take what I am saying as a direct attack at you but I cannot understand anyone who would want to be involved in a mutiny. Why o why would you want to be in a place where already powerful men who run clubs are going to be running the game you love, like it or not we all need our unions and as I am Welsh I know too well how frustrating the unions can be, but they have run us for over 100 years now, why would you want to be in a situation where you have a dozen millionaires with ego's to match trying to get along and run anything, you need a figurehead, somebody outside of the clubs to not take a biased view of their own interests to make a fair judgment, but with all these ego's in one place it will not work, we have already found out what this is all about, the owners of the clubs want the RFU (old farts) out of the way, with all this extra power do you honestly think every chairman in the league will just get along fine ? This will end up with every club against each other and the RFU, and then when it comes to Internationals team England will suffer, but unless you are a club before all else supporter then it will not bother you, but I tell you one thing, it would bother me.

[TJ]

TJ It's a reason why the English and French clubs are unsatisfied with the current format.

The amount of euro cups won recently is irrelevant, they still regularly beat most of the Pro12 sides.

Please stop hanging onto the coat tails of Munster and Leinster. Without them the Pro12 situation looks incredibly bleak.

The status quo is unsatisfactory, the clubs of England and France want change and justifiably so.

But whats the justification for the clubs running everything?

[Exiledinborders]

Well said Mad for Chelsea.

This is quite clearly clubs vs unions. The English and French clubs believe the unions have too much power. Something I completely agree with.

An European cup competition should be run by clubs. It's the players from clubs who play after all.

The Unions domain should remain in the international game.

Why? you and others assert this but I have yet to see an explanation that makes any sense as to why.  

It's because you stick your head in the sand just like the ERC.

The ERC is incompetent. The current status quo is unsatisfactory.

The Pro12 sides generally perform poorly in the HC and most add little value to the current HC.

Most pro12 sides contribute little to the HC yet get auto qualification and a big fat amount of financial benefit on a platter.

The European club scene needs a restructure - the Pro12 sides are digging their heels in - not wanting a restructure.

The Pro12 sides don't seem to care about sides outside the Pro12.[/b]

The Unions have far too big an influence/stranglehold on club rugby.

Again assertions but no reasoning

I would have though most of beshocked's points were self explanatory but here is my view.
The ERC is incompetent.
The two obvious examples of this are the Sky contract and the reaction to the notice by the PRL and LNR.  PRL have been able to redress the money per team payments in their favour and still guarantee that Rabo teams do not lose.

The lack of urgency with which the ERC have dealt with these issues is outstanding. Notice given well over a year ago. There was a board meeting a couple of weeks ago prior to that previous meeting was in May. At the recent meeting the best they could do was say they would arrange another meeting at the end of October. Three meeting in six months! Any business I have worked in would be working round the clock if its future was at risk.


The Pro12 sides generally perform poorly in the HC and most add little value to the current HC.

Most pro12 sides contribute little to the HC yet get auto qualification and a big fat amount of financial benefit on a platter.

Other than three of the Irish teams performance has been poor. Whether they add value is a matter of opinion but having a team which everybody knows will lose every match does seem ridiculous. The fact is that two generally poorly performing Scottish teams get about half as much as the better performing twelve PRL and fourteen LNR sides. That is about six times as much per team for worse performance.


The European club scene needs a restructure - the Pro12 sides are digging their heels in - not wanting a restructure.

The Pro12 sides don't seem to care about sides outside the Pro12.


It is apparent that the current arrangements suit the Pro12 teams which is why they have been so slow to negotiate. It is also clear that although they may concede on qualification they will not negotiate on control or money.

As to whether the scene needs a restructure the fact that two thirds of the teams are saying they would rather not play at all than play under the current rules just about says it all.  The need for a restructure is indicated when the Chairman Lux was elected even though eight teams wanted him but thirty wanted Peter Wheeler (12 PRL, 14 LNR and 4 RRW).

Regarding the wider game it is the PRL and LNR not the Pro12 are the ones that have proposed a third tier for teams from Georgia etc.
The Unions have far too big an influence/stranglehold on club rugby
This is a matter of opinion but it is clear that the unions have lost the trust of the majority of professional teams in Europe i.e. the English and French clubs and the Welsh regions.

[GunsGerms]

you might be right. but does that mean the LNR/PRL should accept the status quo? I think the fact this status quo has been enforced for so long is really the reason why it has so spectacularly exploded now. we may not have been aware of the unhappiness behind closed doors so its a bit of a shock to us.

No but I strongly believe that they shouldnt exist as they do in their current form. I believe in a heirarchy in rugby that should fall into place under a national union. Decisions that the PRL make effect everyone. The only way to ensure that the best symbiotic decison is achieved that considers all stakeholders is to have those decisions coming from the top.

Its no shock at all that this has happened as it also happened in 1999 and will always happen because the LNR and FFR and PRL and RFUs interests will never be fully aligned.

[GunsGerms]

TJ I have already time and again shown how poor most Pro12 sides are in the HC with statistics.

You ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

Same could be said of some French sides that have qualified. In fact only three French sides have won the Hcup, same number of Rabo sides. Qualification doesnt in any way guarentee quality.

[Scrumpy]

TJ I have already time and again shown how poor most Pro12 sides are in the HC with statistics.

You ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

Same could be said of some French sides that have qualified. In fact only three French sides have won the Hcup, same number of Rabo sides. Qualification doesnt in any way guarentee quality.

But it cuts out some of the dead wood, those teams would benefit playing in the Amlin anyway. It's a win win.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

you might be right. but does that mean the LNR/PRL should accept the status quo? I think the fact this status quo has been enforced for so long is really the reason why it has so spectacularly exploded now. we may not have been aware of the unhappiness behind closed doors so its a bit of a shock to us.

No but I strongly believe that they shouldnt exist as they do in their current form. I believe in a heirarchy in rugby that should fall into place under a national union. Decisions that the PRL make effect everyone. The only way to ensure that the best symbiotic decison is achieved that considers all stakeholders is to have those decisions coming from the top.

Its no shock at all that this has happened as it also happened in 1999 and will always happen because the LNR and FFR and PRL and RFUs interests will never be fully aligned.

we can definitely agree to disagree about how we think the club game should be structured.

i think the real conflicts in the sphere of Heineken Cup are not between PRL + RFU and LNR and FFR. the real conflicts are between PRL/LNR and Celtalia Unions + ERC. and that is why this problem is only going to get worse. At least PRL vs RFU and LNR vs FFR have to get along as they co-exist in the same nation. Patently not so with PRL/LNR vs Celtalia in the arena of Heineken Cup. as shown by PRL/LNR walking away.

[TJ]

Errm - the real conflict is clearly between the owners of SOME clubs and all the unions. the ffr statement shows this cleary

[GunsGerms]

TJ I have already time and again shown how poor most Pro12 sides are in the HC with statistics.

You ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

Same could be said of some French sides that have qualified. In fact only three French sides have won the Hcup, same number of Rabo sides. Qualification doesnt in any way guarentee quality.

But it cuts out some of the dead wood, those teams would benefit playing in the Amlin anyway. It's a win win.

Why not just cut Italy and Scotland out of the Six nations as well while we are at it? Or even Ireland and France as they finished last last season.

If ever you needed proof that club rugby can smother the international game look no further than the top14 and France's spectacular fall from grace to pick up the wooden spoon last year. Club rugby is taking over in France and the national team is suffering as a result. Makes for challenging times in the six nations.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Errm - the real conflict is clearly between the owners of SOME clubs and all the unions. the ffr statement shows this cleary

"i think the real conflicts in the sphere of Heineken Cup are not between PRL + RFU and LNR and FFR. the real conflicts are between PRL/LNR and Celtalia Unions + ERC."

[Exiledinborders]

TJ I have already time and again shown how poor most Pro12 sides are in the HC with statistics.

You ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

Same could be said of some French sides that have qualified. In fact only three French sides have won the Hcup, same number of Rabo sides. Qualification doesnt in any way guarentee quality.

But it cuts out some of the dead wood, those teams would benefit playing in the Amlin anyway. It's a win win.

Why not just cut Italy and Scotland out of the Six nations as well while we are at it? Or even Ireland and France as they finished last last season.

If ever you needed proof that club rugby can smother the international game look no further than the top14 and France's spectacular fall from grace to pick up the wooden spoon last year. Club rugby is taking over in France and the national team is suffering as a result. Makes for challenging times in the six nations.

I agree that situation in France is not ideal. One hears rumours that FFR and LNR are negotiating a similar agreement to the one PRL and RFU have re access to players and encouraging development of home grown talent. If LNR agree to this it may be that FFR will agree to Champions Cup.

Incidentally one of the key reasons for lack of French success in 6N is idiotic team management and selection rather than structural issues. If you pick a scrum half at ten what do you expect. Just imagine England picking a full back on the wing and a six at eight in a vital game. Oh hang on.....

[munkian]

 

[TJ]

Errm - the real conflict is clearly between the owners of SOME clubs and all the unions. the ffr statement shows this cleary

"i think the real conflicts in the sphere of Heineken Cup are not between PRL + RFU and LNR and FFR. the real conflicts are between PRL/LNR and Celtalia Unions + ERC."

And you would be wrong - read the FFR statement.

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