Anti-Anglo Thread

[Scrumpy]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I save time, rather than enter post after post of disgust aimed towards PRL and 'The Greedy English' in the Rugby Champions Cup threads just post you hatred here instead and allow fans to discuss rugby in other threads.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

no, you are still not listening.

they are branches of the union. (which is an all ireland body in case that bit has escaped you too)

in exactly the same way as your local barclays bank is a branch of barclays plc (or what ever it's called)

you can say that makes your local bank a club, or a dolly mixture or a spacecraft if you like. It is still a branch of barclays.

well if even wikipedia (not perfect but usually pretty good) is wrong then that's just lovely. bolding is mine, and intimates a degree of separation in plain english:

"Ulster Rugby, usually referred to simply as Ulster, is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from Ireland. They compete in the RaboDirect Pro12 and the Heineken Cup. The team represents the IRFU Ulster Branch, which is one of the four primary branches of the IRFU and is responsible for rugby union throughout the geographical Irish province of Ulster, comprising six counties in Northern Ireland and three in the Republic of Ireland."

Yeah, BRANCH,  - i.e not a stand alone entity. Ulster isn't a club - there's no town/city called Ulster.

just reading the wiki entry and team is distinct from branch. thats why the word represents is used. if wiki is incorrect get it fixed. its based on user submissions.

and there is a town called saracens?

[Scrumpy]

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

[munkian]

If you have such a wide on for Wiki you fix it, I don't even get what your point is anymore...

[Submachine]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Ladyboy no need to be so sanctomonious and condescending.

You aren't listening either.

It's like saying that Sure is the same as Unilever. Sure is a brand of Unilever but it has it's own identity.

It has it's own name, identity.

Same with Ulster rugby and the Irish union. Ulster rugby is the one in the HC, not the Irish Union. The players represent Ulster first and foremost.

I wasn't being sanctimonius. That seems to be your new buzzword to apply to anyone who doesn't love the prl and want their babies.

your analogy with the branding is good. I like that. credit where it's due. Sums it up close enough.

i wasn't saying that Leinster WERE the IRFU. I was saying they were A BRANCH of the IRFU.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

If you have such a wide on for Wiki you fix it, I don't even get what your point is anymore...

could care less about wiki. care a bit more about demonstrable inconsistencies. dont make stupid arguments to back up your point - Ulster is not a town - and i wont highlight them.

[munkian]

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

[GunsGerms]

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

You really think that pro PRL posters are able to think that far ahead?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

interesting! may well go that way. only premise of yours i was not sure about is LNR being forced by FFR. not even President Hollande can compel a commercial entity to enter into commercial arrangement against its will when it is privately owned. shout, bluster, threaten, coerce, cajole, bully, beg all ok, but compel i think not. it sure is going to be interesting in the next 18months in european club rugby.

[lostinwales]

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

You really think that pro PRL posters are able to think that far ahead?

Pro PRL posters dont have to think that far ahead all we have to do is read the pro rabble posts to find out whats going to happen  

[itsallabouttheincentives]

   

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

You really think that pro PRL posters are able to think that far ahead?

Pro PRL posters dont have to think that far ahead all we have to do is read the pro rabble posts to find out whats going to happen  

[TJ]

Do I have to? All are well known to those who follow the debate. I am still awaiting hearing about any significant concessions the PRL have offered.. I'll try to find some links ( or quotes - I cannot link)

[GunsGerms]

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

You really think that pro PRL posters are able to think that far ahead?

Pro PRL posters dont have to think that far ahead all we have to do is read the pro rabble posts to find out whats going to happen  

Glad to assist.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

   

FFR have been at war with their clubs for years, but once again there is a perfect example of an organisation not fit for purpose just like the RFU and ERC.
 
The French national team doesn't even have a shirt sponsor how amateur era is that?

Ok, these rather old institutions arent fir for purpose but a break away group of non sanctioned clubs is ? And when one club thinks its bigger than the others and throws its weight around and the French money bubble bursts what then ?

You really think that pro PRL posters are able to think that far ahead?

Pro PRL posters dont have to think that far ahead all we have to do is read the pro rabble posts to find out whats going to happen  

i have to say, you definitely get my nomination for post of the day.

[TJ]

Here you go- some direct quotes on compromise / alternatives offered bythe pro 12

It is understood two proposals were put to the French clubs, including an enlarged tournament of 32 clubs, made up of 10 English clubs, 10 from the RaboDirect Pro 12 and 12 from the French Top 14, with the Amlin Challenge Cup to be scrapped.

THE SRU will not battle the English and French clubs to keep both Edinburgh and Glasgow in the Heineken Cup, but they will insist that if one drops out there is no financial penalty for Scottish rugby.

The PRO12's counter-proposal of a 32-team tournament was presented at a meeting in Paris last week - to which the English clubs were not invited - and has already been rejected by the French.

The idea would be for the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup to be replaced with one big European competition.

[TJ]

So can anyone give me any details of compromises offered by the prl?

[Totalflanker]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

Fair play - could all happen, but how do you square the circle of it being a non IRB sanctioned competition and the impact on the English team for rugby world cup. Given the breakaway from RFU presume none of the players will be able to play? Moreover the impact for all national teams and all players as they are asked to give up international honours in favour of a non IRB career.

[TJ]

It would be the nuclear option and certainly the IRB would be able to ban any players in the breakaway playing for countries in the WC and 6N

[Artful_Dodger]

So can anyone give me any details of compromises offered by the prl?

As ASBO said above, once they did the deal with BT for a new competition over a year ago they were never interested in any negotiation or compromise with the Rabo, in fact once they did that deal they decided they were done with the ERC as a whole. So really all the talk of lack of compromise from the Rabo teams became inconsequential and was little more than mischief from the PRL who really where the ones intent on a new competition with BT, not renegotiating the HC on any level.

[TJ]

I know that. I was however told the rabo clubs would not compromise but the PRL would - so I presented some info on some rabo compromises and look for some evidence of the compromises offered by the PRL

[broadlandboy]

Soon as the ERC deal with Sky for a competition that would not excist there was no chance of compromise.

[TJ]

So what compromises did the PRL ever offer? i have been told on here the PR Lare prepared to compromise but have not seen any evidence of this.

[nathan]

Here you go- some direct quotes on compromise / alternatives offered bythe pro 12

It is understood two proposals were put to the French clubs, including an enlarged tournament of 32 clubs, made up of 10 English clubs, 10 from the RaboDirect Pro 12 and 12 from the French Top 14, with the Amlin Challenge Cup to be scrapped.

THE SRU will not battle the English and French clubs to keep both Edinburgh and Glasgow in the Heineken Cup, but they will insist that if one drops out there is no financial penalty for Scottish rugby.

The PRO12's counter-proposal of a 32-team tournament was presented at a meeting in Paris last week - to which the English clubs were not invited - and has already been rejected by the French.

The idea would be for the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup to be replaced with one big European competition.

Yeah because all reports that start with "it is understood..." are based on cold hard facts.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

you can only talk of compromise once two distanct positions have been staked out. The PRL/LNR position has been staked out for 18months and until last week they were open to ERC and the unions moving from their status quo position.

there has not been one iota of movement from ERC until PRL/LNR pulled the plug last week, after 18months of waiting.

This is because ERC are convinced that FFR/IRB will ride to the rescue.

Bad premise, when PRL/LNR pulling out of HR is the more damaging financial outcome to ERC/celts irrespectve of whether their new cup is permitted.

[TJ]

Nonsense - the 32 team proposal is over a year old, various other proposals have been made over the time - all rejected out of hand by the PRL Now you claimed the PRL were the only ones prepared to compromise - so lets hear what their compromises were

[TJ]

Nathan - try this then

Euro rugby chiefs are to undertake a "comprehensive evaluation" of two proposals for a new-look Heineken Cup competition.

European Rugby Cup Limited (ERC), the organisers of both the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup, will examine plans for a 20-team tournament that has been tabled by English and French clubs and the 32-team competition suggested by those sides based in Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/171897.html Put the HTTP www back on for the linky - oct 2012

[The Saint]

Gotta say, reading these posts finally clarifies one thing for me. A certain Sarries supporter is an ignorant fool.

 

[broadlandboy]

Perhaps it is not just those horrible Anglos
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199545.html

[Submachine]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

Fair play - could all happen, but how do you square the circle of it being a non IRB sanctioned competition and the impact on the English team for rugby world cup. Given the breakaway from RFU presume none of the players will be able to play? Moreover the impact for all national teams and all players as they are asked to give up international honours in favour of a non IRB career.

The English soccer premier league is a seperate entity to the English FA yet the national team is made up predominantly of players from that league. That is sanctioned by FIFA.

[The Saint]

It was quite obvious to me, clearly not to others, that the term "Franglo's" referred to the PRL and LNR. Not to English and French rugby fans. So the arguement is against them. Though this doesn't stop some of those fans having a whinge while displaying their ignorant and misinformed views on Pro12 rugby.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

It was quite obvious to me, clearly not to others, that the term "Franglo's" referred to the PRL and LNR. Not to English and French rugby fans. So the arguement is against them. Though this doesn't stop some of those fans having a whinge while displaying their ignorant and misinformed views on Pro12 rugby.

quite obvious to me too. anyone who misunderstood obviously hasnt been following the discussion.

[TJ]

tsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

the PRL did compromise. they wanted out, and offered 6/6/6+2 as a compromise. no interest from ERC so out go PRL/LNR

[Totalflanker]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

Fair play - could all happen, but how do you square the circle of it being a non IRB sanctioned competition and the impact on the English team for rugby world cup. Given the breakaway from RFU presume none of the players will be able to play? Moreover the impact for all national teams and all players as they are asked to give up international honours in favour of a non IRB career.

The English soccer premier league is a seperate entity to the English FA yet the national team is made up predominantly of players from that league. That is sanctioned by FIFA.

Spot of with FIFA - however does not appear to be the way the IRB are leaning.
http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199509.html
Obviously still the potential that things can change though

[The Saint]

It was quite obvious to me, clearly not to others, that the term "Franglo's" referred to the PRL and LNR. Not to English and French rugby fans. So the arguement is against them. Though this doesn't stop some of those fans having a whinge while displaying their ignorant and misinformed views on Pro12 rugby.

quite obvious to me too. anyone who misunderstood obviously hasnt been following the discussion.

That would be a number of Anglo posters then.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

It was quite obvious to me, clearly not to others, that the term "Franglo's" referred to the PRL and LNR. Not to English and French rugby fans. So the arguement is against them. Though this doesn't stop some of those fans having a whinge while displaying their ignorant and misinformed views on Pro12 rugby.

quite obvious to me too. anyone who misunderstood obviously hasnt been following the discussion.

That would be a number of Anglo posters then.

not Franglos?

[TJ]

tsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

Ok everyone else - I will drop it now for the sake of the boards mr itsallabouttheincentives has been well and truely shown to be taking out of his posterior.

[The Saint]

It was quite obvious to me, clearly not to others, that the term "Franglo's" referred to the PRL and LNR. Not to English and French rugby fans. So the arguement is against them. Though this doesn't stop some of those fans having a whinge while displaying their ignorant and misinformed views on Pro12 rugby.

quite obvious to me too. anyone who misunderstood obviously hasnt been following the discussion.

That would be a number of Anglo posters then.

not Franglos?

There's only one French poster on here, so not really.

[Knowsit17]

Nothing against the English or French in general terms. I'd like to think I'm not one of those who spring to irrational generalisations at even a hint of subjective disagreement. Nevertheless I feel this is blown far out of proportion which effectively distorts the issues at hand. Certainly the only socially divisive BS I've seen generated over this dispute has come from the same few culprits as usual from whom nothing better is to be expected, the magnitude of the backlash is not so great that you must fall back on victimisation to try and support your argument.

The PRL in my eyes are by far the main guilty party in this whole affair. Their stance takes absolutely no account of the sensitivity surrounding the relationship of club and country in rugby, the entities that have functioned as part of the same structure since the game turned pro. They are disillusioned from the ethos that has distinguished the sport thus far and set it aside from other team sports, primarily football. Their insistence on having things their way makes me see them as arrogant, disrespectful and, most of all, greedy. This echoes my personal view on them since the beginning as businessmen and financiers with eyes for individual profit and absolutely no interest for the good of the game at heart.

The argument for wanting a "fairer deal" for the AP clubs is a misleading way of putting it. They're hardly being deprived when you simply consider that the money going to the Rabo clubs is ultimately being split between four different unions. That is a perspective many people robotically parroting the PRL refuse to even acknowledge. Every time this is brought up everyone just does their best to think in league-vs-league mode, though I have yet to see this philosophy concretely justified. The proposed change is directly and, contrary to the claim, quite unfairly disadvantageous to the individual unions that make up the Rabo.

Where many gullible people may take the "fairer deal" label at face value, others just as easily read between the lines and consider the context of the situation. The motives of the PRL are ultimately to make rugby more like football, ie less regulated and effectively more commercially and financially appealing, opening the money-floodgates positioned above their pockets. Is that what people want, to change the financial structure and thus the culture of the game to one that resembles football?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

You're probably right. This is my predicted outcome


1. If the English and French unions don't back there clubs what are the likely outcomes
a. French clubs are forced to compete in the HEC next season due to statutory nature of rugby governance. They play a mixture of seconds and kids whilst the owners get their legal acts together, detach themselves from the union and create "Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
b. English clubs pull out of European competition next season, detach themselves from the union and create "New Premiership" of clubs free from union influence.
c. Ospreys win the final Heineken European Cup. The 2013/14 competition having the lowest viewing figures in history.
d. The Franglo cup is finally launched for the start of the 2014/15 season comprising English, French and Welsh clubs.
e. The Irish, Scots and Italians ask to be invited to the new competition having lost most of their best players to the English and French leagues in the intervening two years

Fair play - could all happen, but how do you square the circle of it being a non IRB sanctioned competition and the impact on the English team for rugby world cup. Given the breakaway from RFU presume none of the players will be able to play? Moreover the impact for all national teams and all players as they are asked to give up international honours in favour of a non IRB career.

The English soccer premier league is a seperate entity to the English FA yet the national team is made up predominantly of players from that league. That is sanctioned by FIFA.

Spot of with FIFA - however does not appear to be the way the IRB are leaning.

Obviously still the potential that things can change though

just read Lapasset's whole statement. He very carefully didnt say that any future tournament needs to be run by the ERC though. So he is leaving some wiggle room for a tournament that might meet the wishes of everyone (apart from the staff of ERC obviously). He clearly wants to ensure ongoing union involvement.

Lapasset was the boss off Camou before Camou became FFR president, and Lapasset was FFR president for about 20 years i think. So they will clearly read from the same hymn sheet until it comes to crunchtime.

[Cyril]

Nothing against the English or French in general terms. I'd like to think I'm not one of those who spring to irrational generalisations at even a hint of subjective disagreement. Nevertheless I feel this is blown far out of proportion which effectively distorts the issues at hand. Certainly the only socially divisive BS I've seen generated over this dispute has come from the same few culprits as usual from whom nothing better is to be expected, the magnitude of the backlash is not so great that you must fall back on victimisation to try and support your argument.

The PRL in my eyes are by far the main guilty party in this whole affair. Their stance takes absolutely no account of the sensitivity surrounding the relationship of club and country in rugby, the entities that have functioned as part of the same structure since the game turned pro. They are disillusioned from the ethos that has distinguished the sport thus far and set it aside from other team sports, primarily football. Their insistence on having things their way makes me see them as arrogant, disrespectful and, most of all, greedy. This echoes my personal view on them since the beginning as businessmen and financiers with eyes for individual profit and absolutely no interest for the good of the game at heart.

The argument for wanting a "fairer deal" for the AP clubs is a misleading way of putting it. They're hardly being deprived when you simply consider that the money going to the Rabo clubs is ultimately being split between four different unions. That is a perspective many people robotically parroting the PRL refuse to even acknowledge. Every time this is brought up everyone just does their best to think in league-vs-league mode, though I have yet to see this philosophy concretely justified. The proposed change is directly and, contrary to the claim, quite unfairly disadvantageous to the individual unions that make up the Rabo.

Where many gullible people may take the "fairer deal" label at face value, others just as easily read between the lines and consider the context of the situation. The motives of the PRL are ultimately to make rugby more like football, ie less regulated and effectively more commercially and financially appealing, opening the money-floodgates positioned above their pockets. Is that what people want, to change the financial structure and thus the culture of the game to one that resembles football?

Knowsit,

I think the thing that grates is that 'some' posters are painting the PRL as be the devil incarnate and the Pro12 and their respective unions as being whiter than white and bending over backwards to be accommodating. Anybody even listening to what the PRL are saying or agreeing with any aspect of their way of thinking is seen as being gullible and wanting the death of rugby.

As usual, the truth is not black and white.

You say that one of the outcomes of this might bring rugby closer to football. In some ways rugby could do with its structures being made more professional and business-like. There is still too much of the old-boys amateur days ethos in place and that continues to hold real progress back. A kick up the backside and a more commercial view could be a blessing. In moderation, of course.

Many posters on here don't see eye to eye and I guess this mirrors the real world with issues over union governance, club power and differing league structures qualifying for a shared cup tournament.

It'll all come out in the wash.

Just my $0.02

[broadlandboy]

Could those that claim only the ERC/Unions will protect the best interest of Rugby for the smaller Unions give evidense of how they have grown the game?

[Notch]

What can be fairer than having teams earn their place in the HC rather then being gifted it year after year???

I agree. The best Italian, Irish, English, Welsh, French and Scottish sides should participate in a European Cup to see who the best team in Europe is. Someone should invent that. That would be great.

It would be a shame if any organisation was to jeopordise the future of such an arrangement. That organisation would be probably generate a lot of ill will amongst people who follow European rugby.

[The Great Aukster]

Why would anyone be anti-Anglo? The dispute is about Club taking precedence over Union and really has nothing to do with nationality. The PRL saw the opportunity to gain ascendency over the RFU by marginalising them even further than they have already. The HEC is a Union agreement and so understandably the PRL have to nuke the ERC to excise the RFU influence.
The RFU can't risk losing all credibility if they don't support the PRL and more especially threaten the big BT money that the fans see as a necessary transfusion into the club game. OTOH the RFU can see that the Clubs will be dictating to them more and more, so should they make a stand now?
This Anglo civil war has supporters on both sides so how can either one be anti-Anglo? It's just a pity the HEC is the collateral damage.

[Notch]

Ladyboy no need to be so sanctomonious and condescending.

You aren't listening either.

It's like saying that Sure is the same as Unilever. Sure is a brand of Unilever but it has it's own identity.

It has it's own name, identity.

Same with Ulster rugby and the Irish union. Ulster rugby is the one in the HC, not the Irish Union. The players represent Ulster first and foremost.

I wasn't being sanctimonius. That seems to be your new buzzword to apply to anyone who doesn't love the prl and want their babies.

your analogy with the branding is good. I like that. credit where it's due. Sums it up close enough.

i wasn't saying that Leinster WERE the IRFU. I was saying they were A BRANCH of the IRFU.

  What is this nonsense?

The IRFU is responsible for running five professional teams, one in the international game and four sides who compete in the Pro12 and HC which are run by the four regional branches of the IRFU. The IRFU contracts players to play for these teams- there are two types of contract, one for Irish qualified players who declare their availability to play for a province and Ireland and one for non-Irish qualified players who play only for the province- these are restricted in number by the IRFU.

There is a significant amount of delegation in terms of the people who are employed to run the individual provinces like the CEOs who handle the business side of marketing and managing the provinces, but the IRFU is not going to just go away. If you want to compete with Irish teams you will deal with the owner of those teams- the Union.

[stevetynant]

The RFU to me have been embarrassingly quiet in all this.I understand the position they are in so close to the world showpiece in 2015.but surely in a struggle for who runs the game in the northern hemisphere they must back the establishment-to me this is going to end in the English clubs left on their own high and dry.the French clubs cannot operate outside the union edicts especially given the legislative nature of sporting decisions made,not least is the question of where they would operate from when they don't have control of their own grounds. The Irish and welsh are funded largely by their unions and with the irb finally getting involved it will only end one way as far as I can see.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

always a ballsy move not to back the money getting its way. £152m BT contract will be persuasive in all kinds of places.

[TJ]

The RFU are between a rock and a hard place.; I actually think they are the ones who have come out of this well - not taking sides urging moderation all round. I bet they are hoping the FFR does their job for them in vetoing the franglo cup.

The FFR are in a much stronger position due th the nature of the laws governing sporting bodies in france and as pointed out that some of the grounds belong to municipalites - although they willnot always do the governments bidding.

[broadlandboy]

Looks as if the FFR have got a fight on their hands if this is correct as read on another forum
The LNR like the premier league won't negotiate with the Erc
I would have said they are very much on board this is their chairman
[www.lerugbynistere.fr]. It's in French but basically it says if the FFR try to make them play in the Hcup they'll just send Federal 1 teams. The FFR really *** up when over riding them about Lux. They managed to achieve the practically unachievable unite the lot of them. If they now try to force the Club's hand they will go to the European court and apparently are likely to win about Ffr restrictive practices. The Vice President of the league has been in discussions with government ministers about the unsuitability of a load of amateurs having power over professional sport and apparently this is also bearing fruit

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Looks as if the FFR have got a fight on their hands if this is correct as read on another forum
The LNR like the premier league won't negotiate with the Erc
I would have said they are very much on board this is their chairman
. It's in French but basically it says if the FFR try to make them play in the Hcup they'll just send Federal 1 teams. The FFR really *** up when over riding them about Lux. They managed to achieve the practically unachievable unite the lot of them. If they now try to force the Club's hand they will go to the European court and apparently are likely to win about Ffr restrictive practices. The Vice President of the league has been in discussions with government ministers about the unsuitability of a load of amateurs having power over professional sport and apparently this is also bearing fruit

just read it and watched the video. i can't believe that JP Lux, ERC Chariman, did this... "Lux va même plus loin en traitant au passage la LNR de « toutou des Anglais.>

translation, "Lux went even further describing the LNR as the lapdog of the english!"

now thats a novel negotiating tactic!

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