Anti-Anglo Thread

by Scrumpy Tue 24 Sep - 10:58

First topic message reminder :

Thought I save time, rather than enter post after post of disgust aimed towards PRL and 'The Greedy English' in the Rugby Champions Cup threads just post you hatred here instead and allow fans to discuss rugby in other threads.

by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 21:50

And unlike the PRL the LNR will be left with nothing to play in - not even a french league and some of the clubs will not even have grounds. he nuclear option is even more dramatic over in France due to the legal setup and the ground ownership issue

by Submachine Tue 24 Sep - 21:57

Someone mentioned that Rugby could do well in following footballs lead in adopting more professional structures but what does that mean? Because they are paid they are professional, so does more money mean more professional?
I remember being utterly astonished in 1988 when John Barnes was the first footballer to earn £10,000 a week. That is 25 years ago and long before the SKY money sent top footballers salaries into the stratosphere.
Johnny Sexton is being slaughtered by many fans for chasing the money in france but is just about on a par with what Barnes was earning way back then.
But fewer clubs with more money means higher wages, the higher wages attract the best players, the best players = more success for a smaller group of clubs with bigger squads of the best players.
And the argument that the money will be distributed evenly doesn't stand up because at the moment the French and English claim they earn less per club but the bigger clubs generate more income and many of them have wealthy benefactors prepared to supplement them even further.
25 years ago £10,000 a week was incomprehensible to me as a footballers wages but the top earners now are earning £150,000 per week. Inflated salaries have been the ruin of many clubs and not just the smaller ones, Leeds being a prime example. And it will affect Rugby even more because there isn't the same depth of professional clubs, nor experience of professionalism.
Johnny Sexton the current Irish outhalf now earns around €600,000 per year. In 2003 his equivalent, Ronan O'Gara was earning around €60,000 per year. 1000% inflation in 10 years is not sustainable in the long term

by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 22:02

Thats my real issue with the PRL proposals - it concentrates money in the hands of a smaller group as well and will make it forever harder for anyone else to break into that group

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:12

so jonny sexton should not be allowed to maximise his earning power? he is one of the top few outhalves in world rugby so he's not just an average player.

this all comes back to club vs country. smaller nations get an advantage from many of their players playing together (topdown model i think this is referred to). they punch above the individual weight of their players i would argue (as determined by market values of those players). LNR/PRL wealth is a lure that threatens that.

it's like trying to hold back the tide though. it's just not going to work. it's inexorable and inevitable, and the winners at the national level will be those unions that negotiate the best deals with foreign clubs for player release, rest, etc, and do the best job of getting as much talent from the youth system through into the professional game. IMHO.

by The Saint Tue 24 Sep - 22:29

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:so jonny sexton should not be allowed to maximise his earning power? he is one of the top few outhalves in world rugby so he's not just an average player.

this all comes back to club vs country. smaller nations get an advantage from many of their players playing together (topdown model i think this is referred to). they punch above the individual weight of their players i would argue (as determined by market values of those players). LNR/PRL wealth is a lure that threatens that.

it's like trying to hold back the tide though. it's just not going to work. it's inexorable and inevitable, and the winners at the national level will be those unions that negotiate the best deals with foreign clubs for player release, rest, etc, and do the best job of getting as much talent from the youth system through into the professional game. IMHO.

Of course he should be allowed. But you have to consider other factors, something a lot of PRL fans on here can't do. You are correct about Sexton, and I believe (or so I have read) that he was willing to stay in Ireland with Leinster, but wanted his earnings upped to what his team-mate Jamie Heaslip was earning. However the IRFU aren't really in a great position financially so refused to do so. That says to most people that he isn't loyal and has gone chasing the money. On the other hand, you could say he is loyal having spent most of his career up to now in Ireland. He won every trophy possible with Leinster and now wants a Top 14 medal...and wants to go to a team that can give him lots of money in the process. Like the WRU, the IRFU aren't going to try and bankrupt themselves trying to compete with the big spending French. Neither does the NZRU and their set-up is the best in the world. Guess who governs their clubs/provinces/franchises?

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:32

The Saint wrote:
itsallabouttheincentives wrote:so jonny sexton should not be allowed to maximise his earning power? he is one of the top few outhalves in world rugby so he's not just an average player.

this all comes back to club vs country. smaller nations get an advantage from many of their players playing together (topdown model i think this is referred to). they punch above the individual weight of their players i would argue (as determined by market values of those players). LNR/PRL wealth is a lure that threatens that.

it's like trying to hold back the tide though. it's just not going to work. it's inexorable and inevitable, and the winners at the national level will be those unions that negotiate the best deals with foreign clubs for player release, rest, etc, and do the best job of getting as much talent from the youth system through into the professional game. IMHO.
Of course he should be allowed. But you have to consider other factors, something a lot of PRL fans on here can't do. You are correct about Sexton, and I believe (or so I have read) that he was willing to stay in Ireland with Leinster, but wanted his earnings upped to what his team-mate Jamie Heaslip was earning. However the IRFU aren't really in a great position financially so refused to do so. That says to most people that he isn't loyal and has gone chasing the money. On the other hand, you could say he is loyal having spent most of his career up to now in Ireland. He won every trophy possible with Leinster and now wants a Top 14 medal...and wants to go to a team that can give him lots of money in the process. Like the WRU, the IRFU aren't going to try and bankrupt themselves trying to compete with the big spending French. Neither does the NZRU and their set-up is the best in the world. Guess who governs their clubs/provinces/franchises?

exactly. dont be afraid of the money. i dont know how the NZ setup works but arent their centrally contracted squad required to be playing in the SH?

by Submachine Tue 24 Sep - 22:33

Personally I think all rugby players are undervalued. But Sexton will be the first top ranked player of many to leave from Ireland. Wales have already been raided to the detriment of their clubs.
Yes it has forced them to blood youth but if the French and English continue to tempt the cream of the other nations players then the clubs/provinces will suffer hugely.

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:35

yes, but how can you stop it? the professional genie is out of the bottle. and look at the game now compared to 20 years ago. for better or worse it sure has changed.

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:36

totally agree they're all undervalued by the way.

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Sep - 22:43

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:totally agree they're all undervalued by the way.

What is your sense of value based on?

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:45

football
injury vs career length
alternative job prospects

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 22:57

why whats yours?

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Sep - 23:24

What has footballs economy got to do with rugby?
The economics don't add up.

Football makes tonnes of money, it is a majority sport, rugby is lucky to break even below international level, the silly money waved at players are just causing debt.

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 23:34

i'm having a good discussion with saint/submachine about salaries, and you have to try to find something to pick a fight about? and then you choose the football one? should have gone for one of the other 2.

please desist from this kind of asinine comment in future. football loses far more money in absolute and relative terms than rugby. 2010-2011 season (last for which full figs available) Premier League lost £361m on £2.3bn of revenue.

but dont worry i wont be deigning to respond to any of your future trolling efforts.

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Sep - 23:39

itsallabouttheincentives

It's definitely past your bed time mate...!

by itsallabouttheincentives Tue 24 Sep - 23:44

intersting interview with two Ulster boys on the topic of HC. they can see its unbalanced and they are right in the middle of it? so why cant the people on here? why cant ERC and the unions?

BY NIALL CROZIER – 18 SEPTEMBER 2013
Ulster and Ireland centre Darren Cave's love of the Heineken Cup dates from when he was an impressionable, fresh-faced schoolboy making his way to Ravenhill for those big European match days and nights.
Even now the competition has lost none of its appeal or magic. For him, it's the best club-level tournament in world rugby bar none.
So with negotiations as to its future going on behind closed doors, the 26-year-old is keen to see an amicable agreement on theHeineken Cup's future.
"There's been a bit of talk among us," he said. "Obviously the boys love it. Everyone in Ulster loves it. I remember going to watch it as a fan and I absolutely loved it. The fans love it, the players love it."
Hardly surprisingly, he has followed the debate closely. Less predictably, he understands the position of the English and French clubs who have threatened – unless there are changes – to withdraw and stage a tournament of their own.
"I understand why they have a problem," he said. "I think Edinburghwere the example a couple of years ago when they got to the semi-final and finished 11th in the league.
"I think the English and French teams have a right to question the qualification format. And if they are producing more revenues because they are bigger countries, then the money shouldn't be split four ways. I don't know what the answer is; that's why I'm a player and not an administrator. But I think they make a very valid point.
"I hope something is sorted out because it's a special tournament. There are times when it's maybe not as good to watch as Super Rugby because there are fewer tries and the weather means it's a wee bit less free-flowing, but I don't have any doubt that it's the best club-rugby competition in the world.
"I think it's absolutely fantastic and it would be a real, real shame if it was no more."
Colleague Declan Fitzpatrick agrees. The 30-year-old tight-head said: "It'll be interesting to see how it evolves. At this stage we're just looking at our season game on game, so we haven't been thinking about how next season's Heineken Cup might work out.
"But it's something we're aware of and hopefully they can get it sorted out because it's a fantastic competition.
"And it's not a bad idea to be looking at the format. If it's not working, maybe it needs changed, though it has been pretty successful for the Irish provinces so obviously the format is working for us at the minute.

by The Saint Tue 24 Sep - 23:48

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:
The Saint wrote:
itsallabouttheincentives wrote:so jonny sexton should not be allowed to maximise his earning power? he is one of the top few outhalves in world rugby so he's not just an average player.

this all comes back to club vs country. smaller nations get an advantage from many of their players playing together (topdown model i think this is referred to). they punch above the individual weight of their players i would argue (as determined by market values of those players). LNR/PRL wealth is a lure that threatens that.

it's like trying to hold back the tide though. it's just not going to work. it's inexorable and inevitable, and the winners at the national level will be those unions that negotiate the best deals with foreign clubs for player release, rest, etc, and do the best job of getting as much talent from the youth system through into the professional game. IMHO.
Of course he should be allowed. But you have to consider other factors, something a lot of PRL fans on here can't do. You are correct about Sexton, and I believe (or so I have read) that he was willing to stay in Ireland with Leinster, but wanted his earnings upped to what his team-mate Jamie Heaslip was earning. However the IRFU aren't really in a great position financially so refused to do so. That says to most people that he isn't loyal and has gone chasing the money. On the other hand, you could say he is loyal having spent most of his career up to now in Ireland. He won every trophy possible with Leinster and now wants a Top 14 medal...and wants to go to a team that can give him lots of money in the process. Like the WRU, the IRFU aren't going to try and bankrupt themselves trying to compete with the big spending French. Neither does the NZRU and their set-up is the best in the world. Guess who governs their clubs/provinces/franchises?
exactly. dont be afraid of the money. i dont know how the NZ setup works but arent their centrally contracted squad required to be playing in the SH?

Nobody is afraid of earning more money.... This is Rugby, it isn't just about the most money, which is what some people don't realise. I fear if the clubs gain more power then it will be solely about money and the union's could very well disintegrate, and Rugby Union shortly after, unless you have a few multi-millionaire sugar daddies at your local club obvs.
Yes it does. Don't you think their players aren't at all tempted by the money? The French are chasing Kiwi's as well as South Africans. The NZRU take plenty of steps to ensure their best players stay in New Zealand and help continue to strengthen the game there.

by broadlandboy Tue 24 Sep - 23:56

IMHO I don't think even the PRL are so unaware than to realise that the quickest way to raise rugby's media profile is with a successful England team.

by **Notch** Wed 25 Sep - 0:12

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:intersting interview with two Ulster boys on the topic of HC. they can see its unbalanced and they are right in the middle of it? so why cant the people on here? why cant ERC and the unions?

I understand their concerns, as do most- I just feel both sides need to compromise. Not this standard party line 'we get everything we want- or no deal'.

by itsallabouttheincentives Wed 25 Sep - 0:20

not necessarily most on here. and i fear thats reflective of the ERC view unfortunately.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Wed 25 Sep - 0:57

I don't hate the English i pity them.
All this talk about how good the Jeff is but when their South African and their Samoan centres get injured they are in a crisis!!
Come on you telling me the world toughest league with the threat of relegation can't muster up suitable replacements for the ones you shipped in?

Also i pity them because Wales who lost to Japan have beat the English the last three on the trot! one at the mighty Twickers as well.

by nganboy Wed 25 Sep - 2:45

From far away...
I think this thread and others tell us why they can't agree. Clearly we are used to different systems for running our rugby and this gives us different expectations and ideas about what is right and wrong.

Coming from NZ, we of course are used to the idea of the union running it all. So we have clubs create local unions which run the NZRFU which in turn run everything.

Our elite franchises or superclubs are made up of the elite players from all the local unions whose representative teams are made up of the best players from all of the local clubs.
So Victor Vito, plays/ed for Marist St Pats, Wellington Lions, Hurricanes and All Blacks. One day my son will follow in exactly those some footsteps - except he's useless at rugby.

One thing I guess is a difference between say the union vs club system is that in England a great player in a poor club may never get the chance to play HC rugby - they would have to leave their club. Is that right? So I guess that could be an advantage with having another layer of elite teams playing the HC ie its the top 6/8 teams worth of players. However, it sounds something like that could never happen. Though if it did then each country would not have to worry about teams promotion relegation from the HC cause the team wouldn't change just the players.

Anyway good luck to you all though no matter what happens some of you are going to be/stay pi$$ed off.

by The Great Aukster Wed 25 Sep - 8:29

The PRL and LNR are trying to get more money for their clubs. This will mean more imports. Those imports will come from the smaller Unions like the IRFU. This is bad for the Irish provinces because they will be less competitive, but is arguably good for the IRFU as they will have a bigger pool of players, and star names whom the public will not have seen week in week out at Club level. Unlike the SH Unions who operate a different calendar it will be perfectly feasible for the IRFU to select these "overseas" players who will have Test exclusions and access clauses in their contracts.
The RFU realise that attracting more Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians into their league as well as the SH players will further squeeze out English players from the top teams, and so harm their Test future.
So the nett result is French and English clubs to get better but France and England to get worse.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 25 Sep - 8:45

That's the thing, Aukster. I've never shared in the wailing and gnashing of teeth every time a Wales international signs for an English or French club, because potentially (and ideally) they'll be replaced at regional level by an up-and-coming Welsh player and we end up with more potential internationals playing top-class rugby, whether in Wales, England or France. If all Wales' internationals stayed in Wales, there'd be a bit of a logjam and the next generation would find themselves only standing in while the Test players are away. The problem the French have found, with fewer and fewer French players actually playing rugby at club level, should be a warning sign for the RFU. (I doubt it will be anything of the sort for the PRL, of course.) It's also a riposte to those who think the club game and the international game exist in isolation, with neither influencing the other.

by munkian Wed 25 Sep - 9:09

It is a bit mad that a country the size of England bricks it when it loses two centres who weren't even born there.

by Submachine Wed 25 Sep - 9:46

munkian wrote:It is a bit mad that a country the size of England bricks it when it loses two centres who weren't even born there.

I think any side would miss their two starting centres but England have decent depth Twelvetrees, Allen, Farrell, Eastmond, to name a few. Why would their place of birth influence the level of dismay one way or the other regarding their absence?

by Scrumpy Wed 25 Sep - 9:54

I see some posters have resorted back to the same old rubbish!

I guess us and the French leaving the HC really has upset one or two on here. Laugh

by munkian Wed 25 Sep - 10:06

Ha ha ha ! OMG LOLZ

by Cyril Wed 25 Sep - 11:40

munkian wrote:It is a bit mad that a country the size of England bricks it when it loses two centres who weren't even born there.

Cor, imagine if Wales lost their England-born backs. A loss to Japan wouldn't be out of the question. Still, they're a small country so we'll let 'em off.

This is the England/Wales bickering thread, isn't it? Wink

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 25 Sep - 15:17

Cyril wrote:
munkian wrote:It is a bit mad that a country the size of England bricks it when it loses two centres who weren't even born there.
Cor, imagine if Wales lost their England-born backs. A loss to Japan wouldn't be out of the question. Still, they're a small country so we'll let 'em off.

This is the England/Wales bickering thread, isn't it?

It isn't but it is great to see the old rivals back at it again, the whole Ireland/Wales and Scotland/Wales bicckering over the summer was just not the same as the England/Wales bickering.

by The Saint Wed 25 Sep - 15:28

The thing is, that Tuilagi and Barritt are an overseas people that learnt their trade elsewhere... Our players happen to be Welsh, who learnt their trade in Wales, but happened to be born elsewhere (in England, probably due to their parents work)... Except Cuthbert I guess, but I think his Welsh grandparents are proud.

Okay, you can have Manu. He's been with Leicester since 15 years old. And I was glad to see him go on the Lions tour and represent us Very Happy

. Not so sure about Riki Flutey though Whistle

.

by Cyril Wed 25 Sep - 15:29

As if by magic the shopkeeper appeared.

by The Saint Wed 25 Sep - 15:30

I see you're still the local milkybar kid Cyril, policing these boards like a good egg. Cyril the Milkybar Kid Very Happy

.

by TJ Wed 25 Sep - 22:04

maestegmafia wrote:
itsallabouttheincentives wrote:totally agree they're all undervalued by the way.
What is your sense of value based on?

A worship of cash as god coming from his rabid neoliberal stance I guess A man who offers to bet £1000 pounds and describes it as a small amount is a braggart who understands the price of everything and the value of nothing. Fortunately many of us value intangibles of no intrinsic worth such as friendship and happiness and being helpful and kind

by HammerofThunor Wed 25 Sep - 22:24

Have you got the same calendar as Beshocked? And is your word "Neoliberal"?

by TJ Wed 25 Sep - 22:36

Neolibral is that unplasant philosophy that measures everything in terms of power and money and believes power and money give you the right to do as you please with no thought for the effects on those who have none.

by HammerofThunor Wed 25 Sep - 22:52

Do they give explanations in the calendar too then?

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