Anti-Anglo Thread

[Scrumpy]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I save time, rather than enter post after post of disgust aimed towards PRL and 'The Greedy English' in the Rugby Champions Cup threads just post you hatred here instead and allow fans to discuss rugby in other threads.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Errm - the real conflict is clearly between the owners of SOME clubs and all the unions. the ffr statement shows this cleary

"i think the real conflicts in the sphere of Heineken Cup are not between PRL + RFU and LNR and FFR. the real conflicts are between PRL/LNR and Celtalia Unions + ERC."

And you would be wrong - read the FFR statement.

You think PRL/LNR are leaving the ERC because they are unhappy with FFR? Interesting.

[TJ]

No - try to read. Its very clear that the FFR are on the same side as the Rabo unions and the RFU are being neutral in public at least - thus the conflict is clubs V unions. the LNR and the FFR are in open conflict over tehir attitude to the HC and the FFR have been told to join in the negotiations..

[The Saint]

I dislike and distrust the PRL. I like English rugby, England, English people and the England rugby team. The fact that this needs to be explained to some trolls is sad.

The PRL needs to be disbanded and realigned with the RFU and the best interests of English rugby and for the good of the game. Thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.

All of this is very well put, and I agree with it. I really like English people (I get confused when people call me anti-English).

If anything, I really dislike French rugby clubs.

[ScarletSpiderman]

God, some people are tiresome, for the record, I do not hate England, English rugby and English people, some of my best friends are English.

I have seen/heard enough people use that line when trying to pretend not to be an -ist of some type or another, therefore you must be an Anglist (judgest people for being English, trust me I will use it enough to make it a real word)  

[ScarletSpiderman]

At the moment there is an arm wrestle between the clubs and the unions for control. I worry a little that if the clubs win, how long will it be before it become 'elite' clubs v 'common' clubs (the top 6-8 clubs v the dregs of the Jeff/T14) in an arm wrestle over the bigger teams getting more power over the little ones?

[munkian]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

it was also set up when all the nations had their own domestic competitions from which they qualified. things change. it's the nature of the beast.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I don't hate anyone.

[munkian]

But people have said it WAS an elite tournament. It never has been.

[beshocked]

Munkian European? Really? I thought it just included clubs from 6 countries.

Guns Germs we English do not want our clubs to be bullied by unions. You seem to be under the impression that unions are god's gift to the world.

They are not. They ultimately have their own interests at their heart. No different to the English clubs in that sense.

The Irish clubs/regions are basically lap dogs of the Irish rugby union. Just because that's the case it doesn't mean you should enforce your will on us English.

We want our club game and international rugby to be balanced but also separate because it's dangerous when one gets bigger than the other. I don't want the RFU to dominate the English clubs but equally I don't want the english clubs dominating the RFU. I want them to work together but stay in their own spheres - club rugby should be the domain of clubs. International rugby the domain of unions.

[maestegmafia]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

it was also set up  when all the nations had their own domestic competitions from which they qualified. things change. it's the nature of the beast.

These are the clubs that were in the original, the first Heineken Cup. Irish provinces from the start. Italian Treviso too. Swansea and Cardiff are very much the Ospreys and the Blues.

Castres
Toulouse
Bordeaux
Cardiff
Pontypridd
Swansea
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Farul Constanţa
Benetton Treviso
Rugby Milano

[ScarletSpiderman]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

it was also set up  when all the nations had their own domestic competitions from which they qualified. things change. it's the nature of the beast.

Things have changed, a set of teams that didn't want to be involved when it was all started are now actively breaking it up  

Realisitcally things have changed a fair bit. Four of the nationalities that are involved have gone down the provincial/regional/franchise route that seems to be working well at club and international level down south. Attempting to allow their national and domestic games to progress. All four of these nationalities still have their own national leagues which players step up from into the elite regions/provinces etc (again like down south). It could be argued that these nationalities are not frightened of change, in the interest of developing the sport as a high quality product. Then there are two nationalities that are really hanging on to an antiquated system of private clubs, and are refusing to allow themselves to continue along the path of the evolution of the game.

Lets face it none of us are going to change our minds on who is guilty of trying to shaft the other one, and we are just going to keep on arguing amongst ourselves, until there have been numerous PCs/Tablets hurled across the house/office because the other lot are so blinded by their Union/Clubs that they can't see the simple logic that our Union/Clubs are right and they are wrong.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I don't hate anyone.

I can say that I am not an -ist of any sort, I do not discriminate due to colour, creed or nationality. I dislike everyone evenly.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

it was also set up  when all the nations had their own domestic competitions from which they qualified. things change. it's the nature of the beast.

These are the clubs that were in the original, the first Heineken Cup.  Irish provinces from the start. Italian Treviso too. Swansea and Cardiff are very much the Ospreys and the Blues.

Castres
Toulouse
Bordeaux
Cardiff
Pontypridd
Swansea
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Farul Constanţa
Benetton Treviso
Rugby Milano

thanks. and they were all in different leagues. the rabo came into existence in 2001 i recall?

look things change. failure to recognise that is why HC is in this mess. in my opinion HC should be an elite club comp. subsidies between national unions have no place in a club comp with commercially run clubs. its just my opinion, and it is no more or less philisophically valid than your interest in preserving the status quo, but it informs every single post i have made here.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The Heino has never been an 'elite' tournament, its a EUROPEAN tournament. Talk about revisionism

it was also set up  when all the nations had their own domestic competitions from which they qualified. things change. it's the nature of the beast.

Things have changed, a set of teams that didn't want to be involved when it was all started are now actively breaking it up  

Realisitcally things have changed a fair bit.  Four of the nationalities that are involved have gone down the provincial/regional/franchise route that seems to be working well at club and international level down south.  Attempting to allow their national and domestic games to progress.  All four of these nationalities still have their own national leagues which players step up from into the elite regions/provinces etc (again like down south).   It could be argued that these nationalities are not frightened of change, in the interest of developing the sport as a high quality product.  Then there are two nationalities that are really hanging on to an antiquated system of private clubs, and are refusing to allow themselves to continue along the path of the evolution of the game.

Lets face it none of us are going to change our minds on who is guilty of trying to shaft the other one, and we are just going to keep on arguing amongst ourselves, until there have been numerous PCs/Tablets hurled across the house/office because the other lot are so blinded by their Union/Clubs that they can't see the simple logic that our Union/Clubs are right and they are wrong.

i see you aren't a moderator for no reason. good post! broke the tablet yday, stuck with the desktop now

[ScarletSpiderman]

Munkian European? Really? I thought it just included clubs from 6 countries.

'Shocked I guess if you want to be technical the HEC is the Elite European Competition, featuring the teams from the top 6 nations in Europe, and the Amlin is a more all encompasing European Competions. After all this arguement is not just the HEC, but the Amlin too, which does encompase the majority of the european pro sides.

Out of interest is there a second teir Rugby Champions Cup for the likes of Stade Buccarest etc to go into?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

We English do not want our clubs to be bullied by unions. You seem to be under the impression that unions are god's gift to the world.

For which English clubs do you speak? The Premiership clubs, or all English rugby clubs at all levels?

[beshocked]

scarletspiderman if the English and French systems are antiquated and inferior why do most Pro12 sides struggle in the HC?

You haven't looked at the world rankings either. Both England and France are ahead of the Pro12 nations.

You might say they are wrong - well perhaps if you don't lose to Japan and do beat a side as good as NZ you might be higher in the rankings!

Yes I know you'll bang on about Munster and Leinster winning the HC but they are just two sides out of 12.

Even in the HC last season, the Irish didn't quite do as well as usual. Leinster went out in the pool stages - tough group I know. Ulster got convincingly beaten in the quarter finals. Munster were the bravest with a gutsy loss to Clermont after scraping into the last 8 and a victory over Quins.

[beshocked]

luckless pedestrian premiership clubs mainly but the championship clubs aren't treatedly greatly in general.

Scarletspiderman I don't know but I hope that the English and French clubs look to help the likes of Belgium,Romania,Spain and Portugal for example.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

The Irish clubs/regions provinces are basically lap dogs Branches of the Irish rugby union. Just because that's the case it doesn't mean you should enforce your will on us English.

Amazing how much information you can block out when you never listen to/read anyone else.

You do need a strong will to keep focused though.

People "enforcing" things on others is comedy gold though. Prl would never do such a thing.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

luckless pedestrian premiership clubs mainly but the championship clubs aren't treatedly greatly in general.

I suspected as much. Fortunately, although you clearly don't like the idea, the game in England is governed by its union.

[maestegmafia]

thanks. and they were all in different leagues. the rabo came into existence in 2001 i recall?

look things change. failure to recognise that is why HC is in this mess. in my opinion HC should be an elite club comp. subsidies between national unions have no place in a club comp with commercially run clubs. its just my opinion, and it is no more or less philisophically valid than your interest in preserving the status quo, but it informs every single post i have made here.

The HEC has evolved numerous times over the years to encompass changes in structure, rewards, teams, leagues and the such. It has been fantastic in incorporating everyones demands from the start.

The ERC and their members are all happy to discuss and review the demands proposed to them, they have even appointed an independent professional to aid the process.

If the demands made on them are unacceptable in there entirety there is no reason that they should be implied. The ERC is a democracy where all parties have a number of votes and the majority vote is carried.

[ScarletSpiderman]

scarletspiderman if the English and French systems are antiquated and inferior why do most Pro12 sides struggle in the HC?

You haven't looked at the world rankings either. Both England and France are ahead of the Pro12 nations.

You might say they are wrong - well perhaps if you don't lose to Japan and do beat a side as good as NZ you might be higher in the rankings!

Yes I know you'll bang on about Munster and Leinster winning the HC but they are just two sides out of 12.

Even in the HC last season, the Irish didn't quite do as well as usual. Leinster went out in the pool stages - tough group I know. Ulster got convincingly beaten in the quarter finals. Munster were the bravest with a gutsy loss to Clermont after scraping into the last 8 and a victory over Quins.

Calm down mate, your going to give yourself a heart attack. I was just offering an alternative view point to your arguement about the regions/provinces standing in the way.

I can only think of two nations, who are real pro nations, that have club systems (unless hteir feed into frnachise/regions/etc) so it could be argued that the rest of the world has moved on from clubs and that the English and French systems are antiquated.

As for the international scene, the French are falling apart over the last few years. They have even admitted that their issue is down to the clubs feilding too many non-qualified players. The English national team has not seen much sucess since '03, and that was the same time as regions were introduce in Wales. Since '03 Wales have lifted the 6Ns four times, and GS three of those. SO again it could be reasonably argued that not running a system that has clubs at the top is good for the international team.

But like I said, it is all about peoples view point, and you seem clubs as king, and I see the fact that only the PRL and LNR are club ran things.

[beshocked]

Jenifer mcladyboy they still count as clubs.

Comedy gold? If you say it so. I find it no laughing matter that most Pro12 supporters are awfully sanctomonious. Thinking that the status quo is just fine. The HC is not working for the English and French clubs hence them wanting changes.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

thanks. and they were all in different leagues. the rabo came into existence in 2001 i recall?

look things change. failure to recognise that is why HC is in this mess. in my opinion HC should be an elite club comp. subsidies between national unions have no place in a club comp with commercially run clubs. its just my opinion, and it is no more or less philisophically valid than your interest in preserving the status quo, but it informs every single post i have made here.

The HEC has evolved numerous times over the years to encompass changes in structure, rewards, teams, leagues and the such. It has been fantastic in incorporating everyones demands from the start.

The ERC and their members are all happy to discuss and review the demands proposed to them, they have even appointed an independent professional to aid the process.

If the demands made on them are unacceptable in there entirety there is no reason that they should be implied. The ERC is a democracy where all parties have a number of votes and the majority vote is carried.

Please.

if the ERC has been so fantastic from the start then how come there have already been season boycotts and disputes and brinkmanship before?

the ERC have clearly not been happy to discuss and review anything until last week. they have relied too much on behind-closed-doors handshake agreements between union chiefs and the irb to block PRL/LNR so they thought they had no need to negotiate. mediator - horse, gate, bolted.

the ERC is clearly not a democracy. it is a corporate entitly (whose legitimacy expires automatically next summer by the way). and it's created its own voting system. and it can absolutely change it by supermajority vote to amend its corporate charter. nothing to do with a democracy at all. for example, where is the vote for Romania?

[beshocked]

Scarletspiderman it depends how you define success. England haven't won a grand slam since 2003 but have won the 6 nations since then. Got to the RWC final in 2007 which is pretty good.

Wales haven't beaten the ABs for over 50 years. Something England did just last year.

England have never lost to Italy. Italy have now beaten all the other sides in the 6 nations.

Wales have gone up and down like a yo yo. Mixed in with their grand slam wins have been losses to Argentina,Samoa,Fiji and Japan.

England might not have had the lofty heights of Wales' grandslams but neither had they had the humiliating lows like losing to Japan,crashing out in the pool stages of a world cup or a wooden spoon.

In the 6 nations history France and England have the most wins.

[Totalflanker]

Be shocked - you keep on banging on about Pro12 riding the coat tails of Munster and Leinster but can the same not be said of the AP teams, riding on the coat tails of Leicester and Wasps?

Since HEC inception its about equal - 3 different winners from Pro12 and 4 from AP. All of the winners and finalist have been either Leicester, Northampton, Wasps or Bath. Just as all winners or finalists on Pro12 have been Leinster, Munster, Ulster or Cardiff. Bath And Cardiff being the standouts as they have only reached the finals once.

In terms of number of places for teams in the final, its 10 a piece. But all from a very limited pool of four clubs from each league. If you go back to the semis there are probably another couple on both sides?

Do we ride on Irish coat tails - yup probably but the same can be said for the AP. While this position may change a little this year - I think Saracens and Ospreys are probably up the pecking order a little.... there are traditionally strong sides in both leagues.

[Scrumpy]

ERC remind me of FIFA.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Jenifer mcladyboy they still count as clubs.

Branches of a Union are clubs? Really?

Perhaps that's where you are going wrong here? A grip on the basics of the situation would help immensely.

Polarising the arguements and repeating the same few lines over and over with your fingers in your ears doesn't.

[beshocked]

Total flanker well my team has a 61% win rate in the HC so I hardly need to ride coat tails.

Bar Munster,Leinster and surprisingly Cardiff, the Pro12 sides struggle vs my team.

I expect my team to have another strong season in the HC.

Jenifer mcladyboy use whatever terminology you want. Ireland or Northern Ireland do not play in the HC - it is Ulster,Leinster and Munster.

Ulster supporters support Ulster not Ireland or the unions.They follow the Ulster team.

[Scrumpy]

All bought and paid for isn't Beshocked  

[TJ]

Jenifer mcladyboy they still count as clubs.

Comedy gold? If you say it so. I find it no laughing matter that most Pro12 supporters are awfully sanctomonious. Thinking that the status quo is just fine. The HC is not working for the English and French clubs hence them wanting changes.

how can a branch of the union be a club? We accept the english and french want reform and are prepared to accept this. just not at a price that would ruin our rugby. and not on a basis of " this is what we are going to do - like it or lump it. negotiation takes both sides to comprimise - the PRL have refused to do so at all. the Rabo unions have offered a number of different compromises but the PRL have to get everything they want or they are not playing.

Remember the french and english combined can outvote the Rabo unions.

[Metal Tiger]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

[beshocked]

TJ and ladyboy just put ulster rugby into google -

Official site with news, fixtures, results, league tables, player profiles and club information.

They refer to themselves as a club.

Well said Metal Tiger.

[TJ]

Well I can tell you several differnt proposals that have been made.

1) a 36 team group stage then splitting into cup bowl and shield comps. allows everyone a shot at the top table and also allows the best teams that year to be at the top table cream will rise.

2) concessions have been made over number of entrants

3) concession have been made in principle over qualification.

However no compromise at all has come from the PRL - or if it has please tell me. there only one has been one from each nation and 2 on merit. Insignificant and simply unacceptable as the PRL well know.

[Scrumpy]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

Thats how I see it, ERC are the bad guys here.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

no, you are still not listening.

they are branches of the union. (which is an all ireland body in case that bit has escaped you too)

in exactly the same way as your local barclays bank is a branch of barclays plc (or what ever it's called)

you can say that makes your local bank a club, or a dolly mixture or a spacecraft if you like. It is still a branch of barclays.

[munkian]

Beshocked, Ulster, like Leinster, Conancht and Munster are provences of Ireland.
 
They aren't clubs in the way you think they are like Wasps, Leicester, Stade Francais etc

They are all part of the IRFU

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

scrumpy the point is there are "bad guys" as you put it on all sides. it is far from black and white. anyone who says it is must have very little upstairs.

[lostinwales]

Jenifer mcladyboy they still count as clubs.

Branches of a Union are clubs? Really?

Perhaps that's where you are going wrong here? A grip on the basics of the situation would help immensely.

Polarising the arguements and repeating the same few lines over and over with your fingers in your ears doesn't.

Sadly that goes both ways.

From what I have read what decent anti PRL arguments there are have been swamped by three themes
1) There shouldnt be a problem so there isnt a problem
2) If we repeat the same stuff often enough it must be true.
3) PRL causes global warming and makes babies cry

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Beshocked, Ulster, like Leinster, Conancht and Munster are provences of Ireland.
 
They aren't clubs in the way you think they are like Wasps, Leicester, Stade Francais etc

They are all part of the IRFU

The full title of Leinster rugby is The Leinster branch of the IRFU.

The Leinster Rugby bit is just the professional front on it.

[Submachine]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

[TJ]

metal tiger................

Well I can tell you several differnt proposals that have been made.

1) a 36 team group stage then splitting into cup  bowl and shield comps.  allows everyone a shot at the top table and also allows the best teams that year to be at the top table cream will rise.  

2) concessions have been made over number of entrants

3) concession have been made in principle over qualification.

However no compromise at all has come from the PRL - or if it has please tell me. there only one has been one from each nation and 2 on merit.  Insignificant and  simply unacceptable as the PRL well know.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

no, you are still not listening.

they are branches of the union. (which is an all ireland body in case that bit has escaped you too)

in exactly the same way as your local barclays bank is a branch of barclays plc (or what ever it's called)

you can say that makes your local bank a club, or a dolly mixture or a spacecraft if you like. It is still a branch of barclays.

well if even wikipedia (not perfect but usually pretty good) is wrong then that's just lovely. bolding is mine, and intimates a degree of separation in plain english:

"Ulster Rugby, usually referred to simply as Ulster, is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from Ireland. They compete in the RaboDirect Pro12 and the Heineken Cup. The team represents the IRFU Ulster Branch, which is one of the four primary branches of the IRFU and is responsible for rugby union throughout the geographical Irish province of Ulster, comprising six counties in Northern Ireland and three in the Republic of Ireland."

[beshocked]

Ladyboy no need to be so sanctomonious and condescending.

You aren't listening either.

It's like saying that Sure is the same as Unilever. Sure is a brand of Unilever but it has it's own identity.

It has it's own name, identity.

Same with Ulster rugby and the Irish union. Ulster rugby is the one in the HC, not the Irish Union. The players represent Ulster first and foremost.

[Scrumpy]

metal tiger................

Well I can tell you several differnt proposals that have been made.

1) a 36 team group stage then splitting into cup  bowl and shield comps.  allows everyone a shot at the top table and also allows the best teams that year to be at the top table cream will rise.  

2) concessions have been made over number of entrants

3) concession have been made in principle over qualification.

However no compromise at all has come from the PRL - or if it has please tell me. there only one has been one from each nation and 2 on merit.  Insignificant and  simply unacceptable as the PRL well know.

Links to these proposals?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

[munkian]

no, you are still not listening.

they are branches of the union. (which is an all ireland body in case that bit has escaped you too)

in exactly the same way as your local barclays bank is a branch of barclays plc (or what ever it's called)

you can say that makes your local bank a club, or a dolly mixture or a spacecraft if you like. It is still a branch of barclays.

well if even wikipedia (not perfect but usually pretty good) is wrong then that's just lovely. bolding is mine, and intimates a degree of separation in plain english:

"Ulster Rugby, usually referred to simply as Ulster, is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from Ireland. They compete in the RaboDirect Pro12 and the Heineken Cup. The team represents the IRFU Ulster Branch, which is one of the four primary branches of the IRFU and is responsible for rugby union throughout the geographical Irish province of Ulster, comprising six counties in Northern Ireland and three in the Republic of Ireland."

Yeah, BRANCH, - i.e not a stand alone entity. Ulster isn't a club - there's no town/city called Ulster.

[Scrumpy]

Just up front I want to say that I love the HEC.

But I completely understand the PRLs position that entry into the top table competition should be based on meritocratic principles.

The lower Rabo clubs would not be excluded from european competion, they would be entered into the 2nd tier competition (Amlin) exactly the same way as the English & French lower clubs are.

They would still be getting European club rugby but wont be getting a regular thumping in the group stages and will be playing at a more competitve and balanced level.

How is this not fair?

The problem as I see it is that the ERC negotiation position has been "we're changing nothing... so lump it or leave!" It's not a negotiation if you expect one side of the debate to give in on all points if you're not prepared to compromise.

All I've seen is posts on what the evil English & French clubs are doing and their proposals for a new competition. I could be wrong but I don't think I have seen a single post outlining the ERCs plans for meeting/compromising with the PRL/LNR's grievances to improve the competition to settle the dispute.

Instead they have called the PRL/LNR bluffs and now they are leaving.

What negotiation? Which proposals. The English and French clubs gave notice to quit the competition. The English clubs then negotiated a TV deal for a new European compeition without agreement from the ERC, their own union, any other countries clubs or unions. Then the English and French clubs made a press release last week anouncing the name of the new competition and that others may be invited to play.
Where is the wriggle room?

you're right. there isnt any. but there was, for 3 years when PRL/LNR started trying to raise these issues within ERC.

Spot on, ERC aren't fit for purpose.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

no, you are still not listening.

they are branches of the union. (which is an all ireland body in case that bit has escaped you too)

in exactly the same way as your local barclays bank is a branch of barclays plc (or what ever it's called)

you can say that makes your local bank a club, or a dolly mixture or a spacecraft if you like. It is still a branch of barclays.

well if even wikipedia (not perfect but usually pretty good) is wrong then that's just lovely. bolding is mine, and intimates a degree of separation in plain english:

"Ulster Rugby, usually referred to simply as Ulster, is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from Ireland. They compete in the RaboDirect Pro12 and the Heineken Cup. The team represents the IRFU Ulster Branch, which is one of the four primary branches of the IRFU and is responsible for rugby union throughout the geographical Irish province of Ulster, comprising six counties in Northern Ireland and three in the Republic of Ireland."

Yeah, BRANCH,  - i.e not a stand alone entity. Ulster isn't a club - there's no town/city called Ulster.

just reading the wiki entry and team is distinct from branch. thats why the word represents is used. if wiki is incorrect get it fixed. its based on user submissions.

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